destruction of america

[Rustbin]

I became aware of global warming shortly after High school when visiting a glacier in a National park, the railroad went through early 1900's and drew tourists and photographers. The lodge building had photo's of the glacier taken every few years and it showed how the glacier receded first slowly then at an ever increasing rate, where the first visitors just had to walk across the road to be touch the ice I had about a 20 minute hike up the mountainside. I was not wearing hiking boots so the journey over the rocks was hard on my feet. Over the years since I just kept learning a little at a time as hurricane Katrina happened and Antarctic Ice sheets the size of Manhattan broke off and the arctic sea ice thinned. Do you remember the time when Florida had frozen orange juice on the trees and Anchorage Alaska had a warmer daytime high than I think Jacksonville? This was all related to rising ocean temperatures. Anchorage is near a pacific ocean current that flows north east from close to the equator that has traditionally brought warm wet weather to the Pacific north west. Recently (within the last decade) the current and weather patterns have shifter north bringing warmer California like conditions to the region. It has become drier with wildfire conditions becoming more prevalent all the way to the far north. Early on in global warming predictions someone calculated the volume of all water on the planet and declared that sea level rise could hit 25 feet, but that didn't play out because the amount of water the warmer air could hold wasn't added in. In the video Ooph! posted the sea level rise of less than 2mm from the NOAA website is not really in contexts because it wasn't noted that this is on all the worlds oceans, the total ocean surface area times 2mm is actually a lot of water. While Sanfransico has vertical advantage Sacramento does not although it is protected from move waves and storm action the dikes are vulnerable. I don't think many people expected Big Sur to suffer the erosion it has but the aforementioned water does not stay still, it is affected by currents and storms that can cause wave actions that can travel many miles, with water weighing 1 kg per liter big waves have a lot of power. Getting back to water temperature, warmer water feeds more powerful cyclones, (not to be confused with Mercury's) aka hurricanes like Ian that brought wind and rain that washed out several stretched of highways and ruined so many nice cars.

Climate change is a term to describe the more local affects from global warming, like why did Florida freeze while Anchorage had a warmer temperature?  It is a complex system of air currents that are affected by warm air rising, cool air dropping, rotation of the earth and the different topographies, which is why it is crazy hard to wrap ones head around. For Florida to freeze the warm air rises and displaces the cold air which decided the center of North America was the place to fall (the north pole is warmer than it used to be) causing what we call a polar vortex that moves to the vacuum left by the warm air which rose to the stratosphere that displaced it. This is vastly oversimplified just to show that everything is a collection of cycles. A lot of the droughts are related to the warmer air picking up and holding more moisture and not having enough cold to drop it on the mountains where it would have dropped if conditions were like even 50 years ago.

As for human actions affecting it? checking out Noaa's website and fallowing the graph of world temperatures you see a increase during the second world war years then a rebound to some of the coldest temps on record, then as the time scale gets closer to now the temps start trending up showing that the average temperature trend is not linear. I've read about things building on other factors so the Co2 emissions don't immediately equate to higher temperatures, there is a kind of turbo lag but once spooled up it goes so direct Co2 removal will have a delay as well. Then there is the cow fart question, methane has less lag than Co2 and there are 1.5 billion cows on the planet, contributing to 7% of green house gas emissions but the melting permafrost also releases methane, how much is uncertain.

You might get the idea now why cowboy's and oilmen don't want to change and loose there income and government's don't want to risk the economy, so keeping some confusion going lets them not do much to change things.

[john510]

9 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

I pretty much only believe what I see anymore and I see plenty of evidence we are fucking things up badly as far as our planet goes. At work, at home and when traveling. I live for the water and am old enough to see the complete destruction of the Florida keys reef system. Actually see it. I am in the water down there several times a year. Florida releases massive amounts of polluted water from lake Okeechobee creating massive algal  blooms on both coasts and feeding massive red tide blooms on the west coast causing massive fish kills. It's funny to see people believe nothing is happening and there is no way people are causing it. I just lump those folks in with the flat earthers and Q anon group.

https://www.science.org/content/article/after-mass-coral-die-off-florida-scientists-rethink-plan-to-save-ailing-reefs

 

https://captainsforcleanwater.org/the-various-impacts-of-lake-okeechobee-discharges/#:~:text=The nutrient-rich%2C polluted water,experienced in 2016 and 2018.

 

So if you dare question what some say is the flat out truth (when most of it is theory, speculation and prediction mixed in with some fact) you lump them in with flat earthers and Q anon wackjobs ? We do know for a fact the flat earthers and Q anon believers are nuts. Comparing them to anybody that questions predictions is a little overboard. 

[paradime]

1 hour ago, Rustbin said:

I became aware of global warming shortly after High school when visiting a glacier in a National park, the railroad went through early 1900's and drew tourists and photographers. The lodge building had photo's of the glacier taken every few years and it showed how the glacier receded first slowly then at an ever increasing rate, where the first visitors just had to walk across the road to be touch the ice I had about a 20 minute hike up the mountainside. I was not wearing hiking boots so the journey over the rocks was hard on my feet. Over the years since I just kept learning a little at a time as hurricane Katrina happened and Antarctic Ice sheets the size of Manhattan broke off and the arctic sea ice thinned. Do you remember the time when Florida had frozen orange juice on the trees and Anchorage Alaska had a warmer daytime high than I think Jacksonville? This was all related to rising ocean temperatures. Anchorage is near a pacific ocean current that flows north east from close to the equator that has traditionally brought warm wet weather to the Pacific north west. Recently (within the last decade) the current and weather patterns have shifter north bringing warmer California like conditions to the region. It has become drier with wildfire conditions becoming more prevalent all the way to the far north. Early on in global warming predictions someone calculated the volume of all water on the planet and declared that sea level rise could hit 25 feet, but that didn't play out because the amount of water the warmer air could hold wasn't added in. In the video Ooph! posted the sea level rise of less than 2mm from the NOAA website is not really in contexts because it wasn't noted that this is on all the worlds oceans, the total ocean surface area times 2mm is actually a lot of water. While Sanfransico has vertical advantage Sacramento does not although it is protected from move waves and storm action the dikes are vulnerable. I don't think many people expected Big Sur to suffer the erosion it has but the aforementioned water does not stay still, it is affected by currents and storms that can cause wave actions that can travel many miles, with water weighing 1 kg per liter big waves have a lot of power. Getting back to water temperature, warmer water feeds more powerful cyclones, (not to be confused with Mercury's) aka hurricanes like Ian that brought wind and rain that washed out several stretched of highways and ruined so many nice cars.

Climate change is a term to describe the more local affects from global warming, like why did Florida freeze while Anchorage had a warmer temperature?  It is a complex system of air currents that are affected by warm air rising, cool air dropping, rotation of the earth and the different topographies, which is why it is crazy hard to wrap ones head around. For Florida to freeze the warm air rises and displaces the cold air which decided the center of North America was the place to fall (the north pole is warmer than it used to be) causing what we call a polar vortex that moves to the vacuum left by the warm air which rose to the stratosphere that displaced it. This is vastly oversimplified just to show that everything is a collection of cycles. A lot of the droughts are related to the warmer air picking up and holding more moisture and not having enough cold to drop it on the mountains where it would have dropped if conditions were like even 50 years ago.

As for human actions affecting it? checking out Noaa's website and fallowing the graph of world temperatures you see a increase during the second world war years then a rebound to some of the coldest temps on record, then as the time scale gets closer to now the temps start trending up showing that the average temperature trend is not linear. I've read about things building on other factors so the Co2 emissions don't immediately equate to higher temperatures, there is a kind of turbo lag but once spooled up it goes so direct Co2 removal will have a delay as well. Then there is the cow fart question, methane has less lag than Co2 and there are 1.5 billion cows on the planet, contributing to 7% of green house gas emissions but the melting permafrost also releases methane, how much is uncertain.

You might get the idea now why cowboy's and oilmen don't want to change and loose there income and government's don't want to risk the economy, so keeping some confusion going lets them not do much to change things.

 

 

[datzenmike]

OK sea levels are rising but slowly and the last 20 years the rate has increased. Glaciers and ice packs are receding. Some areas that were colder are warmer and warmer areas are colder.

 

I have a glacier about 15 miles up the valley. Some years it's bigger than others.

 

 

[ratpatrol66]

Fuck it we are all going to die. I'm going to drink myself to sleep with a gun at my side and see about tomorrow? 

[john510]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

OK sea levels are rising but slowly and the last 20 years the rate has increased. Glaciers and ice packs are receding. Some areas that were colder are warmer and warmer areas are colder.

 

I have a glacier about 15 miles up the valley. Some years it's bigger than others.

 

 

It's just climate change, get used to it because you ain't stopping it.

[Ooph!]

Climate change, yes its changing we are in an inter glacial period and the temperature still seems to be going up.

To me the question is : How much is due to human action? Fuck if I know but I doubt very much.

Do we have records? yes somewhat, do we have accurate records? fuck no. How accurate do you think you could be reading the temperature on a mercury thermometer 150 years ago? 50 years ago? how thick were the lines ? were they even printed on the glass or on a sheet of paper next to it? Were the instruments located exactly the same in all stations? Were they calibrated to an exact standard? Were the recording persons reading the same instrument at all locations? The answer is NO.

  My hopes would be that we take care of what is easy and we aren't, there is more pollution from human shit in our water than you think, and plastics in the sea even though we, in the industrialized world are made to feel guilty about it, comes from the poorest nations. I've been there, traveled Asia in the 70's with the NAVY and I worked in different countries on occasion. In 2011 Vietnam, people were still piling up garbage along side the road and burning it because there was no collection, and that's a fairly organized country. So what do we do? we spend our treasure tilting at the windmill instead of picking up the horseshit in the middle of the road.

Edited April 15 by Ooph!

[paradime]

3 hours ago, Ooph! said:

Climate change, yes its changing we are in an inter glacial period and the temperature still seems to be going up.

To me the question is : How much is due to human action? Fuck if I know but I doubt very much.

Do we have records? yes somewhat, do we have accurate records? fuck no. How accurate do you think you could be reading the temperature on a mercury thermometer 150 years ago? 50 years ago? how thick were the lines ? were they even printed on the glass or on a sheet of paper next to it? Were the instruments located exactly the same in all stations? Were they calibrated to an exact standard? Were the recording persons reading the same instrument at all locations? The answer is NO. When I was in the NAVY it was part of my job as a Sonarman to take sea temperature readings down to 1500 feet IIRC. Those readings were sent to Monterey Naval weather station and then used by scientists, a lot of this data we are arguing about comes from those type of measurements. Was it close? probably. Calibrated ? NO.  Its was all guesstimates and still is in many cases.

Since that time my background has been in environmental testing (temperature, humidity and vibration) then on to satellite construction and ground stations. After working in that industry on some of those spacecraft it is my belief we are just now coming to the point of being able to measure sea surface height, will they tell you they can? of course they will but I've been in on some of those types of discussions and I can tell you it ain't always the truth. On the ground its difficult how would you separate ground upheaval and subsidence for even one location let alone around the world, remember the plates are moving that's why we have the Himalayas and the Sierras and there are other area's that are being shoved down. In 1989 the Loma Prieta earthquake near Santa Cruz, Ca moved the ground near the epicenter up eleven feet, just a couple miles away at the shoreline how much did that rise? What would you base that measurement on? Every survey marker in the state must move up and down and sideways, daily. According to google there were 7,269 earthquakes in the last 365 days in California alone, how much did the ground move and where?. My hopes are that we take care of what is easy and we aren't, there is more pollution from human shit in our water than you think, and plastics in the sea even though we, in the industrialized world are made to feel guilty about it, it comes from the poorest nations. I've been there, travelled Asia in the 70's with the NAVY and I worked in different countries on occasion. In 2011 Vietnam people were still piling up garbage along side the road and burning it because there was no collection, and that's a fairly organized country. So what do we do? we spend our treasure tilting at the windmill instead of picking up the horseshit in the middle of the road.

 

I'm grateful for your service Oops. I agree that our understanding of human influence on climate is an ongoing construct of knowledge, but subjective reasoning is the weakest form of evidence. Very accurate mercury thermometry was invented by Gabriel Fahrenheit in 1724, and by the early 1800s, measurement was standardized. With questionable accuracy, scientists started sea level measures more than 200 years ago. Today, climatologists can use literally millions of data points to test their theories. it's beyond logic to believe they'er all a bunch of incompetent fools involved in a self serving conspiracy to keep their jobs. They don't submit their work to accepted or rejected by a boss. In fact, they publish the findings of their study to be scrutinized by competing colleagues from around the world, who test its validity with all due prejudice. I know first hand, only the most reliably accurate can survive this test. In my college years as a research psychologist, I had my share of thesis papers torn apart by my colleagues. 

[IZRL]

8 hours ago, datzenmike said:

OK sea levels are rising but slowly and the last 20 years the rate has increased. Glaciers and ice packs are receding. Some areas that were colder are warmer and warmer areas are colder.

 

I have a glacier about 15 miles up the valley. Some years it's bigger than others.

 

Ok but those glaciers have been receding continously since the ice age. They didn't start melting the day humans began keeping track of it.  Apparently sea levels were "FOUR HUNDRED FEET" lower during the ice age than they are today. 

 

So, 1. Global warming is ancient news. 2. Humans had nothing to do with it. And 3. There's clearly nothing we can do to stop it.

 

Who knows maybe this planet has its own seasons? We think of seasons as changes in temperature within a year. What if the Planet's seasons are 2 to 3 million years long. The Planet's winter has passed, springtime is in the air, and summer is just around the corner. Humans will probably not be around to see another Fall/Winter.

 

Don't mind me, its late and I've been drinking. So this post makes perfect sense to me know. We'll see how I feel about it when I sober up.

Edited April 15 by IZRL

[datzenmike]

The facts are there are a lot of facts and we just don't really know. Right now the pendulum is swinging towards warm. Her is a longer timeline...

 

[datzenmike]

It's Monday and someone is putting on their orange makeup.

[iceman510]

But I thought diversity of skin color was a plus?  Why all the fuss?

[paradime]

Orange is a race unto himself. The proclaimed minority of one, chosen to part the Washington sea and deliver his people back to the promised land. The other chosen geriatric demigod is promising the same for his. It would appear that today, old is the promise of a new political ice age. So pass me the prunes and let's get on with the shit throwing ritual. It's oft to glory in November. 

 

Added the sarcasm font because we don't have one for disgust.

 

 

Edited April 15 by paradime

[iceman510]

3 hours ago, paradime said:

a new political ice age.

 

Is this to combat global climate change, or just another result?

Edited April 15 by iceman510

[paradime]

4 hours ago, iceman510 said:

 

Is this to combat global climate change, or just another result?

The narrative depends on who win in Nov. Record profits for big oil, and big solar corporations though.

[datzenmike]

Air conditioner and house boat stocks are bullish.

[Dguy210]

I'd be a lot more convinced on climate change if all the rich people weren't buying beachfront houses.

[bottomwatcher]

5 hours ago, Dguy210 said:

I'd be a lot more convinced on climate change if all the rich people weren't buying beachfront houses.

You don't have to be rich anymore. They are going cheap.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/coastal-erosion-beachfront-property-prices-massachusetts/

Edited April 16 by bottomwatcher
Spelling

[iceman510]

300 years ago before the Industrial revolution I bet none of those houses had to worry about sand erosion.

 

Really, how close to the water do you think is safe for perpetual use even without "climate change"?

[Jesse C.]

On 4/14/2024 at 4:29 PM, Rustbin said:

I became aware of global warming shortly after High school when visiting a glacier in a National park, the railroad went through early 1900's and drew tourists and photographers. The lodge building had photo's of the glacier taken every few years and it showed how the glacier receded first slowly then at an ever increasing rate, where the first visitors just had to walk across the road to be touch the ice I had about a 20 minute hike up the mountainside. I was not wearing hiking boots so the journey over the rocks was hard on my feet. Over the years since I just kept learning a little at a time as hurricane Katrina happened and Antarctic Ice sheets the size of Manhattan broke off and the arctic sea ice thinned. Do you remember the time when Florida had frozen orange juice on the trees and Anchorage Alaska had a warmer daytime high than I think Jacksonville? This was all related to rising ocean temperatures. Anchorage is near a pacific ocean current that flows north east from close to the equator that has traditionally brought warm wet weather to the Pacific north west. Recently (within the last decade) the current and weather patterns have shifter north bringing warmer California like conditions to the region. It has become drier with wildfire conditions becoming more prevalent all the way to the far north. Early on in global warming predictions someone calculated the volume of all water on the planet and declared that sea level rise could hit 25 feet, but that didn't play out because the amount of water the warmer air could hold wasn't added in. In the video Ooph! posted the sea level rise of less than 2mm from the NOAA website is not really in contexts because it wasn't noted that this is on all the worlds oceans, the total ocean surface area times 2mm is actually a lot of water. While Sanfransico has vertical advantage Sacramento does not although it is protected from move waves and storm action the dikes are vulnerable. I don't think many people expected Big Sur to suffer the erosion it has but the aforementioned water does not stay still, it is affected by currents and storms that can cause wave actions that can travel many miles, with water weighing 1 kg per liter big waves have a lot of power. Getting back to water temperature, warmer water feeds more powerful cyclones, (not to be confused with Mercury's) aka hurricanes like Ian that brought wind and rain that washed out several stretched of highways and ruined so many nice cars.

Climate change is a term to describe the more local affects from global warming, like why did Florida freeze while Anchorage had a warmer temperature?  It is a complex system of air currents that are affected by warm air rising, cool air dropping, rotation of the earth and the different topographies, which is why it is crazy hard to wrap ones head around. For Florida to freeze the warm air rises and displaces the cold air which decided the center of North America was the place to fall (the north pole is warmer than it used to be) causing what we call a polar vortex that moves to the vacuum left by the warm air which rose to the stratosphere that displaced it. This is vastly oversimplified just to show that everything is a collection of cycles. A lot of the droughts are related to the warmer air picking up and holding more moisture and not having enough cold to drop it on the mountains where it would have dropped if conditions were like even 50 years ago.

As for human actions affecting it? checking out Noaa's website and fallowing the graph of world temperatures you see a increase during the second world war years then a rebound to some of the coldest temps on record, then as the time scale gets closer to now the temps start trending up showing that the average temperature trend is not linear. I've read about things building on other factors so the Co2 emissions don't immediately equate to higher temperatures, there is a kind of turbo lag but once spooled up it goes so direct Co2 removal will have a delay as well. Then there is the cow fart question, methane has less lag than Co2 and there are 1.5 billion cows on the planet, contributing to 7% of green house gas emissions but the melting permafrost also releases methane, how much is uncertain.

You might get the idea now why cowboy's and oilmen don't want to change and loose there income and government's don't want to risk the economy, so keeping some confusion going lets them not do much to change things.

 

I am by no means a scientists and barely got out of High School, but, it has been my observation that the smaller a chunk of ice gets, the faster it melts. Especially Ice that is not original to the area. These glaciers exist due to the Ice Age and that is done, for now, and thus everything is receding, right? Going back to normal? 

 

Why we fret over what nature will do on its own is beyond me. But it sure does generate Money! 

[a.d._510_n_ok]

[datzenmike]

10 hours ago, Jesse C. said:

 

I am by no means a scientists and barely got out of High School, but, it has been my observation that the smaller a chunk of ice gets, the faster it melts. Especially Ice that is not original to the area. These glaciers exist due to the Ice Age and that is done, for now, and thus everything is receding, right? Going back to normal? 

 

Why we fret over what nature will do on its own is beyond me. But it sure does generate Money! 

 

Glaciers exist because the snow that falls in the winter builds up and compresses into ice that flows down hill where it ebbs and flows while melting. I don't think any glacier ice is 10,000 years old from the last 'ice age'. Maybe on Greenland or Antarctica that has permanent ice.   . 

[bananahamuck]

Thule Station, Antarctic geological research 1982

 

 

 

 

After watching the documentary about these guys ..  I'm of the mind nothing good will come  of this ice exploration business

 

 

 

 

.

Edited April 17 by bananahamuck

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, bananahamuck said:

Thule Station, Antarctic geological research 1982

After watching the documentary about these guys ..  I'm of the mind nothing good will come  of this ice exploration business

 

 

They did actually prove it was really fucking cold up there...

 

 

[datzenmike]

... and can be used in drinks.