Cuz Merica

[datzenmike]

Increased spring pressure would have to be extreme to cause this.

 

Dello 400 is a 'light duty' diesel oil so has lots of ZDDP still but is very detergent. On an older worn engine the carbon build up above the rings can seal compression and aid against oil burning. Don't know how true this is though or if dislodging and washing away soot and carbon build up will affect anything.

[q-tip]

The springs were WAY too stiff, and it did take a good 6 years for that cam to go flat.

 

I don't see an issue with a higher detergent oil, I've run delo in a few of my rigs for a long time with out an issue

[smoke]

Here is the part that most people miss on the oil thing. ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) was originally added to oil to help stabilize oxidation and wear issues. A corrosion test in the 1940s was made for oil and oil that had 0.003% phosphorus passed this test.

 

In the 50s, when higher lift cams came more common place, the phosphorus level from ZPD was increased to 0.008%. They found that the higher level of ZDP was indeed better for flat tappet cams, but at the same time, they also found out that more ZDP was NOT better. When they got to around 0.14%, they found that it would shorten the life of the engine and when they got to 0.20%, it actually started to attack the iron and would wipe out a cam.

 

In the 60s, oil needed to have its antioxidancy increased for higher load engines. Otherwise, it would get too thick to even be pumped through the engine. ZDP was very cheap and also a good antioxidant. So, they added ZDP to bring the phosphorus level up to around 0.10%.

 

In the past few decades, they were finding that the high phosphorus level were killing cataletic converters faster than need be, so they dropped it down to 0.008% again. They could do this now due to the newer ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

 

So really, what is being missed here by folks is that the same amount of ZDP that was added back in the 50s to prevent a cam from going flat is the same amount in there now. It's not as much as was in it during the 60s stuff that was just there to prevent thickening. 

 

It's not the oil, something else is going on.

[Rjawm]

There's gotta be a way to spin this flat cam thing to benefit us old import lovers, even if we don't believe in the reasoning...I've got it.

 

We need to convince the domestic only guys that their cams are going flat due to the Chinese. 

 

The Chinese bought up all the old imports in the "Clunkers for Cash" scam and now they are using the "inferior" steel in those same old Datsun's and Toyota's to make their cams, therefore leading to premature wear. 

 

The new campaign to push is that the Chinese must be stopped from making these inferior cams by ceasing the access to the old import cars steel content.  Bing, Bam, Zoom, no more crushing of our beloved cars.

 

Now to convince the domestic lovers they thought of it on their own...

[DaBlist]

"It's not the oil, something else is going on"  Engine having to work to hard?

 

[q-tip]

New, its that ebola

[smoke]

I have heard of cankles, but, shit. Armst?

[datzenmike]

As I stated the cam metallurgy was 'cheapened' in the late '70s to reduce costs and relied on proper oil changes. ZDDP is used to increase scuff resistance, so if it is being lowered, I want no part in it. My L20B cam was used with oil formulated for the 70s. I don't know what shit they use today, not taking chances.

[smoke]

This rash of flat camery I am referring to is over like the last 5 years, not the 70s. The most likely culprit being lifters. The folks who once manufactured lifters for a flat tappet cam were not seeing enough volume, so to take the place of the companies that stopped, up stepped China.

 

As far as a Nissan engine goes, I did not even know that suffered from getting a flat camshaft. Also, the extra zinc in the 70s was just to control oil thickness by way of bringing up the phosphorus level, not be an anti-wear product. 

 

Everyone can do what they want of course, but new oil is not going to wear your engine out. just the same with GL5 gear oil will not dissolve brass synchros in an old trans. Sure, you hear all the stories that it eats yellow metal, but how many can say they have actually seen it without lying to try and prove they are right. 

[Z-train]

The folks who once manufactured lifters for a flat tappet cam were not seeing enough volume, so to take the place of the companies that stopped, up stepped China.

You would be correct.THe whole industry was effected.

[Mattndew76]

I just got asked to machine some billet rockers for a Subaru. Never made these before but sure would try.

 

Not that this has any relevance.

[HRH]

Now hold on a minute Smoke.  GL5 WILL PIT BRASS SYNCHROS.  It takes some time to pit them, especially in light duty transmissions like Datsuns.  But it WILL pit them over time.  It's due to the active sulphur in the GL5 oil.  GL4, however, will NOT pit brass.  For Datsuns and Dodge Cummins, use GL4 or an oil rated for not screwing up brass.

 

If you're in the heavy mining business with giant brass gears, GL5 will cause an extremely bad problem of pitting.  That's why you use a drivetrain-rated oil instead of gear oil.  Our oil rep solved that exact problem with one of his accounts because they ruined two sets of gears in a mining truck by using regular GL5 gear oil.

 

Short of it is, ZDDP isn't a bad idea for flat tappet cams due to the cam getting oiled last as the oil goes through the journals in a cam-in-block V8.  For Datsuns, it doesn't really matter that much, unless you're breaking in a new cam, then follow the manufacturer's instructions.  I run diesel 15w40 in the Maxima because I beat the shit out of it as seen in the latest autocross video and I'd like a little extra protection since I don't have an oil spray bar on that motor yet.

 

But using GL5 when it specs GL4 or has brass in it, is a bad idea.

[smoke]

Did you see the ruined brass yourself?

[Mattndew76]

I saw a ruined ass once

[HRH]

No, I did not, but I do believe my Schaeffer's rep.  He saw it, I believe him.  And he's correct, GL5 has active sulphur, GL4 does not.  Sulphur eats brass, hence it will deteriorate yellow metal.  Why do you think they make such a big deal about approved oil with the NV4500 transmissions found in Dodge Cummins?  They have brass synchros too.  That's why there are only a handful of oils that are approved for them.

 

Me, I run 10w40 engine oil in all my transmissions now.  No worries of brass synchro pitting and in actuality, it's nearly the same viscosity as 90w gear oil.  If you've ever looked into it, there are gear, drivetrain, and engine oils, all of which are judged by different scales.  40w engine oil is right about 90w gear oil.  Same thickness.  That you can look at on Valvoline's website.  

[HRH]

Here is a really good article outlining the problem with EP additives (extreme pressure) found in GL5 gear oils, with pictures.  It also involves the kind of mining gears I was speaking of.  Can't remember which particular machinery they were in, but anyway.

 

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28958/ep-additives-effects

[smoke]

Bigfoot

[tr8er]

I'm watching closely.

 

(Says the guy who just put gl5 in his 5 speed and hasn't run it yet, but it's been sitting in there for a couple of weeks now. Should I drain it now? Or run it a couple miles to flush it out (sat with old oil for a couple of years) then change it?.)

[datzenmike]

GL-4 runs about 4% sulphur additives for gear scuff protection, which because of the type of gears used in a transmission is more than enough protection, but also it isn't strong enough to harm the brass if replaced every 5 year 30K miles with fresh.

 

GL-5 runs about 6%... which seems like it's only 2% difference, but really 6 is 50% more than 4. Differential gears transmit power differently and need more sulphur additives. The thing that makes GL5 superior to GL4 is why it should never be used where any copper or copper alloy is used.

 

GL5 won't harm your transmission over the short term. The sulphur bonds to the outer molecules of the copper forming a hard surface not well supported by the soft copper below. (it's intended to bond with steel) During use, the outer layer cracks off like an egg shell exposing the new copper layer below and the process repeats, slowly eroding it away. Takes time.

 

Nissan recommends GL4 in transmissions and GL5 in the differentials of Datsuns. If GL5 would work in transmissions they would say so. 

[q-tip]

So I can speak from experience on this gl4 vs gl5 debate. In 2006 I put a gl5 rated gear oil in the transmission in my 510.......8 years later its starting the grind a bit going I to 3rd when I'm driving it hard. So my conclusion is it takes a long time for gl5 to mess up brass syncros.

[MikeRL411]

So I can speak from experience on this gl4 vs gl5 debate. In 2006 I put a gl5 rated gear oil in the transmission in my 510.......8 years later its starting the grind a bit going I to 3rd when I'm driving it hard. So my conclusion is it takes a long time for gl5 to mess up brass syncros.

 

At which time you will most probably find out that replacement parts for brass snychro transmisions are NLA.

[datzenmike]

71B synchros are about $50 each and probably $100 each to put in.

[q-tip]

Yep, if I have to I can make some, buying a whole extra transmission is probably the route I'm going to go.

[smoke]

It's one of those things I honestly am not 100% sure on. Here is why it kinda falls under the "meh" category with me personally. Back before the internet was full of stories about all the shit that will ruin your car....I would just put whatever in that 71 ford trans. So its got like 15 plus years of having gl5 in it. Then, I read that it would ruin it. It still shifted great, but it was bugging me to death. So, I went out and pulled it. The fucker was perfect inside with no sign of abnormal wear. I did switch it back to what was supposed to be in it at that time, just because.

 

This got me curious about it though. A buddy of mine own a very busy shop that specializes in vw transaxles, I asked him about it and I got the same rap, it will eat it, don't use it. Ahhhh, I thought, now some actual proof I can see. I asked him how many he gets in that have been fucked up by it. He paused and went, well, uh, none that I have ever seen. So out of the thousands and thousands of transaxles running gl5 he has never seen it to be the cause of a failure, yet tells me it will. He then thought about it and said "I guess I don't really know".

 

So I guess I just have some big doubts. Oil is like religion though, you hear about all the bad shit that is going to happen, but it's hard to find first hand experience.

[RatVonDude]

Trans axl? ok we are getting back on topic. Axl rose may have had a sex change in pre g.n.r days. David arcott ( spell check ) sure did. Both Americans.