Fisch's 1959 Datsun 1000 project! Peeking in the oilpan!

[67411sss]

On the starter. If it is the same as the E series engine, i have a nos one if that one is toast and you don't want to fix it.

[Icehouse]

Fish Man couldn't the wipers have constant power because your system is a positive ground setup?

 

Mike is the man that's for sure! Mike needs a weekly show on youtube :D

[bonvo]

 

Mike is the man that's for sure! Mike needs a weekly show on youtube :D

 

x2

[Jester]

Fish Man couldn't the wipers have constant power because your system is a positive ground setup?

 

I was thinking something like that as well. My '48 Willys had a +ground on the wipers. There was always power to the switch, it just didn't make ground till you turned them on.

[mklotz70]

....uumm....thanks guys! :)

 

Had a great time chatting with you Scott! You listen, follow instructions, and catch on to this stuff extremely well! It was a piece of cake working with you!! With time comes experience. I've been doing this kind of thing for about 27 years.......so I probably got started about the time you were born! :( Sad part is, I'll still be doing it when you become rich and famous!

 

Hey....if rubbing Buddha's belly is supposed to bring luck.....why the heck am I not the luckiest guy around here???!!!!!! I rub my belly all the time!!!

 

Youtube show?! LOL. It would be something like the dato mind tricks of the Weeble One Kanobi. I'd have the mental powers of baby skywalker.....look like Jabba....and I could hang pics on the wall behind of princess Lay-me. :) .......so where does the datsun stuff come into play???

[mklotz70]

I did think of the switched ground for the wipers while we were t/s'ing....the ground is constant.

 

When Scott gets a chance, he's going to pull the switch and check the wires on it. Only one should light the test light with the ign on and the switch in. If there's light on the other side.....it's bad. It can be replaced, or taken apart and fixed...provided nothing is broken.

 

Where the vid of your wife doing the dance when the horn honked???!!! :) Glad to hear she's excited about your baby too!

[purple]

If I remember right my wipers work all the time so that would be constant not switched power supply. I may have an extra switch too.

[Charlie69]

Fisch, ask Mike Klotz about wiring in a Ford Solenoid. Easy to get and affordable.

[fisch]

So I fixed my solenoid! The solenoid for these puppies is remote and on the fender well. I like that!

 

The small post on the front is for the starter button. The posts on the bottom are R-lead from battery L-lead down to starter.

 

So I pull that little guy out of there and head to the kitchen table. Removing 4 screws gets you inside the case.

 

Now inside you can see the disk.

 

The disk is centered in a post with a spring on either side of it,and when the ignition switch is hit, that disc magnetically shoots down and bridges the gap between the two posts- the battery wire one and the starter wire one.

 

Now here is where the problem was and this is the fix. Essentially the little post on front had come loose, and when the nut was tightened it rotated the inside square end and pushed the hot wire into the casing. I needs to be isolated naturally. The rubber spacer was also torn a little so I laid a strip of electric tape under everything, though it was probably overkill.

 

So now when I turn on my key and push the starter button, it turns over! Woo-hoo!:D

 

Course, the problem remaining is that the starter isn't engaging the flywheel.:( Or I should say, it does for a second, then must come loose and just makes a grinding noise.

 

But the success at the solenoid has me wanting to pull the starter and take a look at what's going on! That is next.

[denveratsun]

Great work man! I know how awesome it is to get some god help when you really need it...sounds like mklotz came through!

 

 

I love the "free" fixes!

 

Love the car, love the pics, love the help that everyone has been...and love the dream coming true part too!:cool:

[bonvo]

nice easy fix ftw but please tell me you cleaned all the contacts

[mklotz70]

Awesome work Scott!!! I'm impressed! I'm thinking that should give you the confidence to do the same thing with the starter :) After all....it's already broken....you can't really hurt it. Kinda like the solenoid. That's exactly how I learned most of what I know :) Keep it up.

 

If you look in the 320 parts manual...you'll find two different starters....they may help, they may not. You're looking for a mechanical prob with it...I'm guessing. As opposed to an electrical prob. The bendix is not pulling in all the way.....so there's a really good chance is just gummed up like all the switches were. I'd take it out so that you don't damage the ring gear.....then on the bench....start/stop it multiple time and see if it loosens up. Make sure you clamp it down some how...they're got a lot of torque.

 

Great job!! Thanks for the pics!! A few years from now, you'll find yourself returning to your pics for reference...so keep taking lots of them.

[fisch]

nice easy fix ftw but please tell me you cleaned all the contacts

 

Thanks guys! Yeah I totally cleaned that puppy Bonvo! Even shined up the case. I almost went all the way and painted it, but figured I should install it and see if it worked first. :D

 

Getting those screws out was a pain. Even with PB Blaster. Most of the crosspoints striped out and I needed visegrips to remove them. So I'd like to replace them naturally!

 

Mike, this is what I do to bench run that starter, right? First secure it down. Hook a jumper from the battery positive to the case of the starter. (Because were positive ground, or would it matter?) Then I plan on running a remote trigger switch between the Neg terminal of the battery to the starter post. Sound about right?

[Jester]

Scott, be sure to take notice of how far the pinion gear on the starter comes out when you first start. That way if you get inside to take a closer look and to clean, you will know if it was just not being thrown out enough.

Great progress bud! You'll have it running in no time.

[mklotz70]

Since you have a remote solenoid....you won't use the remote start switch. The solenoid gets activated with that switch and the small wire. If you try to turn the starter with that remote switch, it will pull enough juice to melt the insulation off it. If you had the solenoid on the starter, you would connect both jumper cables up to the starter, then use the remote trigger to provide juice to the solenoid.

 

I would use the black jumper cable for ground(from the pos batt term) so that you visually key on the fact that it's ground and clamp it to one of the mounting ears of the case. Then, leave the cable from the car that's connected to the starter...the one hooked to it in the car. Then you can can connect/disconnect the red jumper cable to that cable while the other stays connected to the batt neg term. It's always better to keep sparks away from a battery for a couple of reasons :)

 

The starter may actually have the pinion on the far side of the ring gear and pull it in. We came across one like that earlier this year with a guy on the Classic yahoo group looking for another. Anyway....post a pic of the start when you pull it. You'll know right away if it looks like all the other starters you've seen or not. :)

[ggzilla]

I'm glad you didn't just stick a Ford solenoid in there, like some of the cars at JCCS had :-(

 

Keep it real, keep it all Nissan.

[Icehouse]

I'm with Mike and Bonvo pull that sucker apart! It's most likely just some galvanic corrosion ruining the contact points.

 

P.S. I'm sending you some parts to paint up for me :D

[fisch]

Bummer! So I decided to get into the starter today, and hit the first wall in project '59.:(

 

Here is the starter, I was going to bench test it to see if it was just getting stuck, but on first examination, it was pretty obvious the teeth were badly worn. Looks like a new starter would be hot on the replace list.

 

The starter itself is 12" long from terminal end to the other tip. The gear is pulled 'in' rather than pushed 'out' on this type. Had a sweet little badge that says;

 

Hitachi Ltd. Starting Motor

S114 03

1.4 HP U 87-0036

TF106917

 

The good news it that it looks a lot like a 320 starter, so I'd bet they would swap.

 

The bad news is, I decided to check out the the flywheel ring gear.

 

The front, where the starter doesn't engage, looked pretty good!

 

But the rear... not so hot I am afraid. I don't think a new starter will fix this.:eek:

 

It is like melted butter. And the gear tooth channels are not even 1/8" deep.:blink:

 

 

What do you guys think? As of now I don't think I have any choice but to pull this engine. Maybe a 320 flywheel will fit? Need to do some measuring. I could try to clean up those teeth, but am doubtful there is enough material there to get them back into shape. But who knows, with a new starter gear, once cleaned there might be enough tooth to catch?

 

I just have to debate how much energy and cash I want to put into this mill, rather than getting into a swap.

 

I am not too bummed out. I always planned a swap anyway! But it would still be fun to see what it was like in its original form!

 

Perhaps this is why it was parked to begin with? What could have caused this? Here is my theory from someone who has little experience. For what ever reason (not oiled once a year like suggested in the manual for the 320?) the plunger wasn't going in all the way. (I have read they can get stuck.) But they kept cranking with it and the lack of full contact eroded the teeth. Could that be right?

Edited October 10, 2009 by fisch

[datto510]

Here is my theory from someone who has little experience. For what ever reason (not oiled once a year like suggested in the manual for the 320?) the plunger wasn't going in all the way. (I have read they can get stuck.) But they kept cranking with it and the lack of full contact eroded the teeth. Could that be right?

 

Sounds plausible.

 

I wonder if you could shim the starter with washers so it makes better contact with the ring gear. At least it might get the engine started. Just a thought.

[denveratsun]

Sounds plausible.

 

I wonder if you could shim the starter with washers so it makes better contact with the ring gear. At least it might get the engine started. Just a thought.

 

Or remove the driven gear and shave it down till the teeth are a bit more solid.

 

Bummer man! I am sorry that you hit this wall...on the upside...at least you are even ABLE to have this car and hit this wall!!!:D

[fisch]

That is an interesting thought guys! If I clean up the gears and had an aluminum spacer so no dirt and stuff would into the case. Hmmmm

 

I had another thought too, since the front half of the flywheel teeth are fine, I wonder if I could find a starter that would be a 'push' throw instead of a 'pull' one? I measured one form an l-18, and the distance between the mounting bolt centers is smaller than the '59. The '59 is 5" between bolt mounting centers and the l-18 is like 4 3/8 between bolt centers.

 

Both starters have 9 teeth on their gears. So that is promising!

 

If I did not use a spacer on a push throw one, it looks like it just might reach the good half of the flywheel.

 

But let me ask you. If I hooked up a modern starter as positive ground. Would it mess it up?

 

Can anyone with an e-series or a-series measure the bolt mounting spacing for me on their starter? And if it is out, guess the amount of throw the gear might have?

[mklotz70]

So...there's the infamous pull starter :) Like previously mentioned, the C1 and E1 are pretty similar....so I'm guessing an E1 starter will work. I'll have to check and see if I have a starter. I'm sure I have something laying in the scrap pile in the front yard to tell you if the holes are the same spacing. :) I'll have to look and see if there's a flywheel out there too. I'll try to check, take measurements and post a bit later.

 

Before laying out anymore time/money/effort, I'd get a hand crank working so that you can do a compression test. If you do a compression test and it looks good, fix the flywheel/starter and have some cheap fun by getting the stock motor running. If the compression test is bad, it's a boat anchor :)

[fisch]

Mike, you rule for checking! So for the hand crank test, can I crank it hard enough with my arms for a cold test reading? Shouldn't be too much resistance with the sparkies out on this little guy. At least enough to see if they are even across.

[ggzilla]

About wiper motors ... 1970s Datsun wiper motors are + feed all the time, and the switch grounds them to make them go. Your could be similar.

[mklotz70]

Yep.....you'll only be compressing one cylinder at a time as long as you pull the plugs. You said it pushed around in gear easy enough. If you don't want to take the time to make the crank, get your buddy to help you push it in gear with the compression gauge hooked up :) Put it in rev...push it back about 20 feet....switch to a diff cylinder....push forward in first....motor has to turn the right way or your intake of air will be coming through the exhaust valve. Make sure to wire the carb wide open so it can easily suck the air it needs.