Fisch's 1959 Datsun 1000 project! Peeking in the oilpan!

[fisch]

Depends. Easy way to check that is to put a volt/ohm meter across the leads to the coil. It should read aroundabouts 3 ohms. Next guess would be that the condenser relieved itself of duty.

 

You guys are awesome! I get 003 to 002 with the ohm meter. I assume it is ok that the leads were still hooked to it?

 

So condenser? I will have to start digging into british dizzys to see if it is the same. I know the inside of the 320 dist looks different.

 

You are right bonvo. I should just get a new set of points too. I just keep thinking it will run any second. And it is one more thing!

 

It is funny. I never planned on keeping this engine in the '59, and still probably won't, but I am intrigued by the possibility it works and would always regret it if I didn't see what it was really like in stock form. After all, how will I know what an improvement a bigger mill would be if I didn't!

 

As long as I don't have to put a lot of cash into it to make it happen! So far the solutions have been pretty affordable!:D

[mklotz70]

Most likely, you have a short near the points....most likely the little wire you had to play with before. Disconnect the wire from the neg side of the coil. Test light clamp on neg batt term(power) and test light on coil neg term(with no wire connected. If it lights, the coil is shorted, but I highly doubt that's the case. Put the tip of the test light into the wire that you disconnected...the one coming from the points. If it stays lit....disconnect the wire on the side of the dizzy. Light should go out. Disconnect the capacitor(condensor) and test it with the tip of the test light. If it lights up, the capacitor is shorted to ground and needs to be replaced. If it doesn't, you'll need to dig around in the dizzy and find out where the short is. If the wire near the coil stayed lit after you disconnected it from the side of the dizzy....it's somehow shorted to ground, but I think you said that wire was hanging out so you could see the whole thing.

 

If you do the ohmmeter test on the coil....make sure you disconnect the wires going to it. It needs to be isolated for an accurate test. Since it's a points coil and not an EI coil, I believe it will be closer to 1.5 ohms on the primary. The ballast resistor is about 1.5ohms. The EI coil doesn't need it because it's built into the coil. Maybe it's 3 ohms and 4.5 for the EI coil.....just don't remember it well enough. :)

[fisch]

How cool is this, I found a Lucas electric manual and the dist in the '59 (or something close) is on page 17!

 

 

It says to have the leads from the condenser and the power lead NOT under the securing nut but under the plastic shoulder beneath it. Essentially isolating it form the post. The leads will be touching the spring now. Which would mean the movable point at the end of the spring, not the fixed point will get power through the spring, I think. For some reason I thought the fixed point attached to the plate got power? But it make sense that the plate would be ground. Right?

 

Here is the link to the Lucas manual for y'all who are interested to download! Other goodies like the starter are in there too!

 

http://www.vitessesteve.co.uk/PDF/LucasFaultDiagnosisServiceManual.pdf

[fisch]

More AWESOME links.

 

This is a MGB manual that has the 1800 series engine. Not exactly the same, but just about as close as I can find. The distributor diagram totally reinforces I had it wrong!

http://www.geomatique-liege.be/MGJP/DocumentsPDF/MGB_Workshop_Manual.pdf

 

 

Here is another page about adapting a modern Electric ignition Hitachi distributor to english b & a series engines.

http://www.starchak.ca/tech/pdfs/hitachi.pdf

[mklotz70]

My bet would be that you can use an L series matchbox dizzy in there just like I did :)

[Charlie69]

Mike PM me your address and I will ship you the distributor tomorrow. I will throw in a used cap, rotor, wires, & coil. Merry Christmas Fisch!:D

[mklotz70]

I just realized.....there's no point in going down the EI dizzy route as long as it's still positive ground.....so hold off on shipping the dizzy :)

[Charlie69]

I just realized.....there's no point in going down the EI dizzy route as long as it's still positive ground.....so hold off on shipping the dizzy :)

 

Good point Mike.

 

Just say when.

[MAG58]

My bet would be that you can use an L series matchbox dizzy in there just like I did :)

 

Oh yeah. I'm running Crane XR700 on my Z and mini, substantially less murdered coils.

 

My mass coil grave yard (drum in the corner of the shop) is now growing substantially slower!

[scifiguy30]

I just read about your latest struggles, so you'll find updates with a lot of info about your ignition system, including diagrams, specs, the complete wiring diagram for the car and even a troubleshooting guide. As you said, this is in many respects a service manual. Back then the owner was expected to do all "routine" maintenance, which was pretty extensive. My truck stalled out on me last night so I had to push it the last block home. Fortunately it is very light. I'll need to do some troubleshooting of my own soon. Good luck getting yours running!

[motavated]

I find it funny that you were trying to turn her on by hand but she has no spark...

 

Oh man! hahaha!

 

Good luck trying to find the problem man. I hope you get her running soon. I am getting pretty excited!

[fisch]

Good point Mike.

 

Just say when.

 

Wow wow wow, even if we are not ready for EI because of the positive ground thing, it is the thought that counts and I am blushing. You guys are tops!

 

I have done some reading on reversing polarity, and it actually doesn't sound that hard if and when we get to it!

 

Part of me wonders if they already did it because the coil was hooked up for standard negative ground. However the radio was fried and that is one of the things that would fry if you hooked it up the wrong way on accident. So I think the POs just didn't know, and assumed it was neg ground.

[fisch]

I just read about your latest struggles, so you'll find updates with a lot of info about your ignition system, including diagrams, specs, the complete wiring diagram for the car and even a troubleshooting guide. As you said, this is in many respects a service manual. Back then the owner was expected to do all "routine" maintenance, which was pretty extensive. My truck stalled out on me last night so I had to push it the last block home. Fortunately it is very light. I'll need to do some troubleshooting of my own soon. Good luck getting yours running!

 

Super duper man!! Wow a real wiring diagram for this thing!! How wonderful!

 

I am pretty sure I know what is wrong now, just have the wires going to the wrong spot in the dist. But once I fix that there very likely could be something else!

 

If I can just sneak out to the garage for 1/2 hour today....

[mklotz70]

Just for clarity.....the coil is supposed to be hooked up the same way, regardless of the vehicles polarity. It has to do with the wiring inside. The coil works off the change in current...it doesn't care which direction it's moving :) It will still usually work wired backwards......but it will have a very weak spark.

[fisch]

Just for clarity.....the coil is supposed to be hooked up the same way, regardless of the vehicles polarity. It has to do with the wiring inside. The coil works off the change in current...it doesn't care which direction it's moving :) It will still usually work wired backwards......but it will have a very weak spark.

 

So wait Mike, I thought you said earlier the neg from the coil gets wired to the side of the Dist for power? Should I switch it back so the coil + attaches to the side of the Dist?

[mklotz70]

neg coil connection goes to the points regardless of polarity. Didn't you say that your '59 had the + side connected to the dizzy? That would be wrong, even for pos ground.

[fisch]

neg coil connection goes to the points regardless of polarity. Didn't you say that your '59 had the + side connected to the dizzy? That would be wrong, even for pos ground.

 

I am probably getting my terms mixed up Mike. Thanks to SciFiguy we have a wiring diagram!!

 

Here is a zoom of the ignition, showing the + of the coil goes to the side of the dist. So that's what I should do I reckon?

 

Full diagram. Thanks again SciFiGuy!

[nukeday]

Thanks for posting the MGB/Lucas pdf links Fisch. For 320 and J series owners out there, this has a lot of crossover information.

 

There has been a flurry of activity on this, this car is like the ratsun foster child!

 

What I always try to go back to is that (in my case) the rig was running when it was parked. Mike reminded me not to change everything to make it 'right' until I really understood how it was initially set up. Just because it ran doesn't mean it was correct when it was last shut off, but if it ran then, it should again. I've purchased cars for pennies on the dollar that just had the +/- on the coil reversed.

 

Take your time, it's not a very complicated system, and you're a smart guy. :)

[fisch]

There has been a flurry of activity on this, this car is like the ratsun foster child!

 

Take your time, it's not a very complicated system, and you're a smart guy. :)

 

Indeed Charlie! I feel like everyone is out in the garage with me!

 

I guess at the moment I am confused. The diagram for the 59 clearly shows the + from the coil as going to the side of the distributor.

 

But the diagram for my 521 seems to show the neg from the coil going to the side of the dist. And that is what I am hearing from y'all too? :confused::confused:

Edited November 19, 2009 by fisch

[Cuts metal like mad]

No offense to all the work and research thats already been done here... but it seems to me the easiest way to solve this puzzle is to go painless... sure its a little spendy, but it sure would simplify things. I mean there are other brands that do the same thing as well, only cheaper.

[Charlie69]

Fisch, I guess at the moment I am confused. The diagram for the 59 clearly shows the + from the coil as going to the side of the distributor.

 

But the diagram for my 521 seems to show the neg from the coil going to the side of the dist. And that is what I am hearing from y'all too?

 

Remember your 521 is negative ground and your 59 is positive ground, that is why they are opposite between distributor and coil.

[MAG58]

I have that dizzy (figure 28) sitting in on the bench in the garage back home, And I know for a fact that it will work in a positive or negative ground situation provided the car is wired for it. That being said, my XR700 took roughly 20 minutes to dump into my mechanical dizzy and runs much stronger. I've never dealt with the matchbox/pertronix but the XR is very similar in design.

 

Quick coil how it works:

 

A coil is actually two coils inside each other. When the points are closed, electricity flows through the outer coil which then creates a field inside the coil. This field causes a charge to build inside the second, inner coil. When the points open, the circuit is broken and the field collapses. With nowhere to go, the charge on the inner coil looks for a ground to dump its charge which is the sparkplug. Switching fields on the coil changes the +/- charge on the inner coil. If you have it setup as positive ground on the coil and negative ground on the motor, the charge built up in the inner coil would be negative, and since the engine is grounded negative it wouldn't actually build charge, just dissipate throughout the engine meaning no spark. Make sense?

[fisch]

A coil is actually two coils inside each other. When the points are closed, electricity flows through the outer coil which then creates a field inside the coil. This field causes a charge to build inside the second, inner coil. When the points open, the circuit is broken and the field collapses. With nowhere to go, the charge on the inner coil looks for a ground to dump its charge which is the sparkplug. Switching fields on the coil changes the +/- charge on the inner coil. If you have it setup as positive ground on the coil and negative ground on the motor, the charge built up in the inner coil would be negative, and since the engine is grounded negative it wouldn't actually build charge, just dissipate throughout the engine meaning no spark. Make sense?

 

 

Hmmm I think I am getting the gist of it. So there would be no spark at all if the coil were hooked up opposite?

 

Well I just ran the test where I unplug the coil lead from the dist cap and hold it above the engine, then slowly open and close the point gap by hand to observe spark.

 

This time a did get a little spark (Which is an improvement so I must have sorted the inner dist wiring.), BUT, it was weak at best, even across the points themselves and more often that not there was NO spark at the end of the coil lead to the engine block.

 

Now I could try to use the coil in my 521 but for some reason Rock auto lists a different part # for it than for the coils I read 'might' be compatible. Could that just be because of how its bracket mounts?

[bonvo]

No offense to all the work and research thats already been done here... but it seems to me the easiest way to solve this puzzle is to go painless... sure its a little spendy, but it sure would simplify things. I mean there are other brands that do the same thing as well, only cheaper.

 

i agree it would also get the whole positive ground thing out of the way

[fisch]

So I sanded the points and am gettin a much better spark between the coil lead and the engine block, and at the points themselves. The points don't look burnt or pitted.

 

Still won't fire but I am wondering if I flooded it with starter fluid at this point. When I look down the carb I see fluid in the manifold. I've put enough fluid down there with all these tests, thinking it would evaporate between, but it has collected down there. So I've left the throttle wide upen in the hopes it will evaporate a bit.

 

And guys I don't know what good a painless wireing harness would do me? All the wires from the taillights to the headlights test fine! Every system checks out with the testlight so far. Lights all work, even the heater fan and horn. (With the exception that we don't know how the generator is doing cause we haven't tested it.) I just needed to figure out where the ignition wires go, and I think I have it now since I am getting spark from the coil finally!