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Cuz Merica

Ratwagon1600

By Ratwagon1600
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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

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I can't say I will ever trust a polling group ever again to be factual and not purposefully taint the sample group. I wish things were honest but the last year has laid bare the polling outlets political leanings.

 

Strategically it was a brilliant move by the democrats to imbed in everything that help sway public opinion within dense metro areas, but I feel burned and the trust is gone for this very political move. Mind that if it was the GOP pulling these moves I couldn't find myself feeling any different than I do now.

 

If ACA stands it needs to be stripped of a shit load of earmark bull shit. The mandate has to be removed. It drives a larger portion of people into financial struggles than the the portion who is benefitting from the ACA. 

 

Pull that and start trimming other gov cheese programs to help fund the ACA after the system has been reworked. 

 

If this was the plan then I would help support it. As we all know... Gov is hungry for anything money. 

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john510 Veteran

john510

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Oh those trustworthy polls,the same ones that had HRC elected months before she lost her ass.Never trust a poll especially regarding politics.

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tr8er Rookie

tr8er

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Posted

I can't say I will ever trust a polling group ever again to be factual and not purposefully taint the sample group. I wish things were honest but the last year has laid bare the polling outlets political leanings.

 

Strategically it was a brilliant move by the democrats to imbed in everything that help sway public opinion within dense metro areas, but I feel burned and the trust is gone for this very political move. Mind that if it was the GOP pulling these moves I couldn't find myself feeling any different than I do now.

 

If ACA stands it needs to be stripped of a shit load of earmark bull shit. The mandate has to be removed. It drives a larger portion of people into financial struggles than the the portion who is benefitting from the ACA.

 

Pull that and start trimming other gov cheese programs to help fund the ACA after the system has been reworked.

 

If this was the plan then I would help support it. As we all know... Gov is hungry for anything money.

Stripping the mandate kills the bill. Estimated 20% rate hike because only sick and high risk people will buy in. This kind of thought process is akin to the repeal croud.

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

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Stripping the mandate kills the bill. Estimated 20% rate hike because only sick and high risk people will buy in. This kind of thought process is akin to the repeal croud.

 

You would rather wreck a larger portion of the population financially? The people who are on the cusp of a poverty level are forced into a window of not able to afford insurance and forced to pay a ever increasing penalty.

 

I am guessing your annual income is over 100K? Generally that's the disconnect. Its easy to argue for something when you can absorb the cost at both ends.

 

I propose anyone with a household income of over 150K and less than 3 children to be required to pay a mandate 4000$ tax at the end of the year as to support the families on the cusp.

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tr8er Rookie

tr8er

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The ACA was supposed to fail by design in order to push single payer down our throats, the part where it went wrong is Trump getting elected, HRC was supposed to "save" the healthcare debacle.

It wasn't designed to fail, but it is likely to lead to single payer

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

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It wasn't designed to fail, but it is likely to lead to single payer

 

It was and even the author went on record saying it was designed to be heavy on people.

 

Serious are you even interested at being neutral?

 

I can grab an endless amount of article on this if you want. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/11/10/aca-architect-the-stupidity-of-the-american-voter-led-us-to-hide-obamacares-tax-hikes-and-subsidies-from-the-public/#6944752a7c05

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/did-the-author-of-obamacare-admit-its-evil.html

 

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/223578-obamacare-architect-lack-of-transparency-helped-law-pass

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/harry-reid-and-tom-coburn-agree-obamacare-was-designed-to-fail-pave-way-for-single-payer/article/745908

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tr8er Rookie

tr8er

Posted
Posted

The funny part is, he nor anyone needs to sabotage that shit show, it's been doomed since it got implemented, but go ahead and convince yourself that Trump killed that too, I'm not surprised, not one bit.

The ACA is far from perfect. But healthcare cost had run wild and something had to be done. The ACA aimed to correct that. Trump hasn't done shit to it. But he can. Thus the question. Republicans have brought lawsuit after lawsuit to every aspect of the law that wasn't written with proper syntax. This brought on delays and killed any confidence in the marketplace. Insurers have passed the fuck out of the plans because of this building rainy day funds and pushing huge bonuses to execs. The plan prices are way the fuck high because all of the bickering in gov. Killed the confidence, thus reducing participants, thus reducing competition. States refused to implement exchanges, furthering the efforts to kill the bill. Rubio killed the funding necessary to get the new system in place and healthy. Something this big takes investment and cooperation. That didn't, and isn't happening. There is 0 effort to fix this law. The senators and president have been at the podium stating that there are problems with the ACA, but none of them are at all interested in actually trying to make it work. So it won't. They know it. So go on and tell me it hasn't been sabotaged. Perhaps it would fail on its own weight, but we will certainly never know that.

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paradime Veteran

paradime

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It's a given that ACA is not without ugly flaws and it is on a trajectory towards single payer, but if I recall, healthcare was shit and literally falling apart when ACA was passed. I seriously question whether we'd be in better shape right now had ACA not passed.

 

It's totally understandable why Trump is motivated to upend it now though. Not just protecting the "free market" massively powerful profitable industry of healthcare, but thanks to the opposition party at that time Obamacare literally has Obama's name on it. If the cornerstone of his legacy is successful after Trump railed against it and promised to repeal it throughout his campaign, it benefits Democrats while making Trump look foolish and weak. That is an image Trump can not afford.

 

How can Trump and the Republican party save face in this situation? For fuck sake, find a bipartisan fix and rename it Trumpcare, just give us affordable high quality healthcare. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they harmed Americans in this self serving pursuit.

 

We need to protect and defend our healthcare providers while empowering them to innovate. Personally I would LOVE to see the blood sucking health insurance industry put out of business, but as it stands they serve a purpose in the market place. An independent medical board should frame the parameters of what is and is not covered and if insurance companies can't find a way to work within that, they can get the fuck out of the business and let leaner hungrier companies take their place. We can also aggressively implement cost saving practices like community healthcare cooperatives (not the same as insurance coops) providing seed capital support with incentivizing corporate nonprofit contribution through a higher % tax right off. Break up the powerful monopolies by decentralize the profit structure and putting it back into the hands of real free market competition.

 

This is how Wall Street stock investment sees this. Please note the focus is on who profits.

 

The Problem With Health Care Coops: No Capitalists To Absorb The Losses

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/09/26/the-problem-with-health-care-coops-no-capitalists-to-absorb-the-losses/#56c4c5677155

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KoHeartsGPA Newbie

KoHeartsGPA

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Posted

This ^

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

Posted
Posted

Having healthcare shouldn't wreck anyone's finances. Bring the stupidly high cost down by eliminating as many middle men as possible and it's affordable.

 

this 100%

 

Bout the best idea Trump campaigned on that would have helped the ACA was turning the market into a nation wide market vs state to state monopolies. Actual free market with restraints.

 

Let us tailor our own policies like auto insurance. Risk pool scale to help with older retiree rates. 

 

But NOOOOO Both side fucking killed this idea.

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

Posted
Posted

So lets tell a story about ACA.

 

Coos Bay Oregon: Population 16,292

 

Coos County Poverty level roughly 34%

 

So a women's health doctor currently in a relationship with my childhood friend transferred to Coos Bay to practice because of the income differences from AZ to Oregon. This woman LOVES the ACA because of such a high poverty rate in Coos County. She cares for roughly 200 full benefit ACA members. Full docket. So during a visit a ACA discussion ensued, she starts talking about why she likes it. Since the ACA became law it has allowed health care providers not insurance companies but Dr. Offices, to be able to compound the cost of care in remote areas or high concentration of impoverished people.

 

These places can't keep doctors on the payroll so they offer higher than normal pay up to 3X most area's even more. They also deliberately charge more for procedures in the areas too knowing the ACA covers the cost. Along with the high wage to keep a doctor. So a gyno exam in her office is billed at $500.00 vs $100.00 in an area with less poverty and less ACA recipients. This kinda dropped jaws in the conversation. 

 

Do you think just because people are on ACA that it should put  other taxpayers on the hook for higher billed procedures? The ACA is designed for this. She even admitted since she makes 300,000 a year, she don't give a shit who the ACA affects outside of her income bracket. She loves the ACA.

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paradime Veteran

paradime

Posted
Posted

So lets tell a story about ACA.

 

Coos Bay Oregon: Population 16,292

 

Coos County Poverty level roughly 34%

 

So a women's health doctor currently in a relationship with my childhood friend transferred to Coos Bay to practice because of the income differences from AZ to Oregon. This woman LOVES the ACA because of such a high poverty rate in Coos County. She cares for roughly 200 full benefit ACA members. Full docket. So during a visit a ACA discussion ensued, she starts talking about why she likes it. Since the ACA became law it has allowed health care providers not insurance companies but Dr. Offices, have been able to compound the cost of care in remote areas or high concentration of impoverished people.

 

These places can't keep doctors on the payroll so they offer higher than normal pay up to 3X most area's even more. They also deliberately charge more for procedures in the areas too knowing the ACA covers the cost. So a gyno exam in her office is billed at $500.00 vs $100.00 in an area with less poverty and less ACA recipients. This kinda dropped jaws in the conversation. 

 

Do you think just because people on ACA should the taxpayer on the hook for higher billed procedures? The ACA is designed for this. She even admitted since she makes 300,000 a year she don't give a shit who affects outside of her income bracket. She loves the ACA.

Interesting anecdote but doesn't begin to tell the whole story nation wide. 

 

 

It didn't before obamacare.

 

Premiums were rising at a faster rate before ACA, but yes, it did nothing to make it more affordable. Do you think Trump should throw healthcare into chaos to force a name change?

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tr8er Rookie

tr8er

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It was and even the author went on record saying it was designed to be heavy on people.

 

Serious are you even interested at being neutral?

 

I can grab an endless amount of article on this if you want. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/11/10/aca-architect-the-stupidity-of-the-american-voter-led-us-to-hide-obamacares-tax-hikes-and-subsidies-from-the-public/#6944752a7c05

 

^Doesn't say that it was designed to fail.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/did-the-author-of-obamacare-admit-its-evil.html

 

^Doesn't say that it was designed to fail.

 

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/223578-obamacare-architect-lack-of-transparency-helped-law-pass

 

^Doesn't say that it was designed to fail.

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/harry-reid-and-tom-coburn-agree-obamacare-was-designed-to-fail-pave-way-for-single-payer/article/745908

 

^ states, "may have been designed to fail".  Close.  But still no.  

 

 

 

The above articles are about the intentions of the fill to transfer wealth from the young and healthy to the needs of the older and sick.  I didn't really feel like that was hidden from the public.  That was kind of the entire point of the legislation from what I recall.  The last article at least went into your argument, but it was nothing more than pointing our that a guy with a blue tie also saw a possibility of a design to end up in single payer.  I hope he is right.  We desperately need to remove the insurance goliaths from healthcare.  "Oh but but but the Government is the biggest goliath of them all".  Yup, they are.  But unlike insurers, the government doesn't profit from us being sick.  They profit from us being healthy tax payers and soldiers.  At my core, I want less government programs and assistance.  Healthcare is the one place I see a severe importance of the government.  It wasn't that way, but costs have been intentionally driven so high, that insurance is necessary.  Insurance companies are the ones who drove costs so high to increase reliance on them.  This drove the higher pay scale for doctors, which drove the costs for medical degrees, which drove doctors into debt requiring the higher rates of pay.  They also drove the cost of pharmaceuticals by not really negotiating costs, and medical equipment same deal.  All to increase dependence on health insurance.  This was a smart, but sick game played on us for generations.

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

Posted
Posted

The above articles are about the intentions of the fill to transfer wealth from the young and healthy to the needs of the older and sick.  I didn't really feel like that was hidden from the public.  That was kind of the entire point of the legislation from what I recall.  The last article at least went into your argument, but it was nothing more than pointing our that a guy with a blue tie also saw a possibility of a design to end up in single payer.  I hope he is right.  We desperately need to remove the insurance goliaths from healthcare.  "Oh but but but the Government is the biggest goliath of them all".  Yup, they are.  But unlike insurers, the government doesn't profit from us being sick.  They profit from us being healthy tax payers and soldiers.  At my core, I want less government programs and assistance.  Healthcare is the one place I see a severe importance of the government.  It wasn't that way, but costs have been intentionally driven so high, that insurance is necessary.  Insurance companies are the ones who drove costs so high to increase reliance on them.  This drove the higher pay scale for doctors, which drove the costs for medical degrees, which drove doctors into debt requiring the higher rates of pay.  They also drove the cost of pharmaceuticals by not really negotiating costs, and medical equipment same deal.  All to increase dependence on health insurance.  This was a smart, but sick game played on us for generations.

 

You control the masses need for healthcare you control them all.

 

For just California alone the cost to implement on year 1 for a single payer system. : $400,000,000,000.00

 

That's one state.... Estimated cost to implement the whole nation: $38,000,000,000,000.00

 

Those are not even estimated operation costs. That just the infrastructure to start the single payer system. 

 

how do we even implement single payer?

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paradime Veteran

paradime

Posted
Posted

You control the masses need for healthcare you control them all.

 

For just California alone the cost to implement on year 1 for a single payer system. : $400,000,000,000.00

 

That's one state.... Estimated cost to implement the whole nation: $38,000,000,000,000.00

 

Those are not even estimated operation costs. That just the infrastructure to start the single payer system. 

 

how do we even implement single payer?

 

Right now, healthcare is a $3 trillion industry. Were are you getting these number?

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

Posted
Posted

Right now, healthcare is a $3 trillion industry. Were are you getting these number?

 

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-first-fiscal-analysis-of-single-payer-1495475434-htmlstory.html

 

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-sac-single-payer-explainer-20170601-htmlstory.html

 

Sorry it was estimated at a single payer bernie plan would be 18.5 Trillion over 10 years. Even that would only provide 10,000$ "Free" healthcare in a year for the lowest wage earners. So this thought would have to have huge cost controls and largely would decimate this market. 

 

http://www.npr.org/2016/05/09/477402982/study-sanders-proposals-would-add-18-trillion-to-debt-over-10-years

 

Google, Bing, Yahoo are great search engines to counter my argument BTW

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Mattndew76 Mentor

Mattndew76

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The GOP tries hard to make single payer un-achievable. But at the same time thinks is the greatest nation capable of anything. Come on.... Even a Canadian can do it.

 

Here's a tidbit. Most currency or fiat currency depend on the largest and wealthiest markets to support their value.

 

There might actually be a world wide effort to keep the USA out of a single payer system because of how huge the healthcare market is here $$. You take that away and you will see budgets all over the world tank. It wouldn't be as hard on the US economy to recover or rebound on such a move as the rest of the world. As goes the USA market so goes the rest of the world's markets. These are the moves diplomats have been making from WW2. Make the world dependant on the USA to ensure the lifespan of being the most dominant power around. Ever wonder why Russia and China want their own world currency for other nations to back theirs against?

 

Sanctions anyone? 

 

We may never ever see affordable healthcare and it may not even be because of domestic interests but global greed.

 

after thought: This might be similar as to how the US taxpayer was supposed to pay for the cost of implementing the Paris Climate accord.

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KoHeartsGPA Newbie

KoHeartsGPA

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Posted

The GOP tries hard to make single payer un-achievable. But at the same time thinks is the greatest nation capable of anything. Come on.... Even a Canadian can do it.

Canada doesn't have over 300m citizens, multiply that number by whatever you think it might cost to cover each person...

 

Simple math.

 

$1....$300 million

$10.....$3 billion

$100....$3 Trillion

 

Want to keep adding? THAT is logical, is it not?

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