destruction of america

[paradime]

10 hours ago, frankendat said:

My analogy, while extreme and "far fetched" illustrates the key tenant consistently unacknowledged or unaccepted. The culpability of individual free agents for actions of the whole. It is not a "deeply complex situation". It is a "millennia old religious conflict" and it is "the most contested patch of dirt on the planet". 

The USA (and most of the world) enjoys wringing hands and gnashing teeth about "complexities". How is it complex? Two want the same thing - the "best" solution would be "share". Israel and the United Nations have developed and offered many options for sharing and the Palestinians have rejected all. I hear the hand wringing starting...."only the leadership rejected the plan, blah, blah, blah." Refer to bold text. I do not see moral failing holding an individual responsible for the actions of the group, State, Country, or organization, which he swears allegiance, which he serves, or which he benefits.  

The next "best" solution would be to pick a favorite. The USA has picked. Since I acknowledge that fact (which is difficult for hand wringers) I realize if my neighborhood is bombed by Palestine, then I cannot be shocked. I also realize this could entail killing women, children and anything else that walks or crawls in certain swaths of land.

To put this age old complex problem in even simpler terms: Israel has been an ally of the United State. Palestine has not. Israel has offered to compromise. Palestine has not. The popular saying, "fuck around and find out" is no longer applicable, because Palestine has fucked around and fucked around and fucked around, but when it comes to "finding out" The USA shows its lily white underbelly.

I would not engage our military to aide Israel unless it was requested, required and prudent to assist an ally. I would continue to sell our ally arms and munitions (even at a discount). If Israel needs to kill every Palestinian in the region, to feel safe,then  allies support allies in controlling and vanquishing enemies.  

A third purposed solution is isolationism, but I believe the negatives outweigh the benefits and do not find it viable. 

So your short sighted fuck all Palestinians solution is for the US to support our allies in the genocide of their enemies, without consideration of the consequences. With limited reasoning, a child thinks simplistic rationals like that will keep them safe. Hard lesson learned for me, because I went to the hospital way too many times using that logic.

 

I'll own the fact that quoting Yoda is a dubious retort, but...

 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.'

 

You can view this war through a politically narrowed soda straw, but over 3 millennia of conflict, there is plenty of fear, hatred, and blame for the suffering for them to throw at each other. It's also the standing formula for justifying the never ending cycle of war. It takes more than gin for me to ignore the global complexities going on there, or the fact that 25% of the world's population is Muslim, and 0.2% are Jewish. Even a kindergartner on acid could figure out that just having the biggest stick in the playground is not going to win that fight. If we hope to avoid a 3rd WW, calmer minds must prevail. Unfortunately, those voices are in short supply these days, so I rely on gin logic to make sense of it. The greatest hypocrisy of religious based beliefs is that morality is inversely proportional to one's faith. I'll stand with the hand ringers when well armed religious leaders are fighting in the sandbox of the lord. Instead of these self-righteous leaders preaching and following God's rules to keep their believers safe, all they've given them is fresh fuel to throw on the fire of fear, hatred, and blame for their suffering. Apparently, God doesn't give enough of a shit to take a side.

[frankendat]

7 hours ago, datzenmike said:

The US has always supplied intel, certainly in the form of surveillance (spy satellite, SR-71 etc.) Anything that moves the Israelis know about. Good to know in an urban conflict.

 

Analogies, if the can't be both pithy and humorous should at least be humorous.   

Which further supports my position that it is the historic "reasonableness" of Israel, which continues this conflict. The charity of Israel exploited at the cost of the lives of their citizens. If Israel knows "anything that moves" then Israel could strike and destroy anything that moves. Israel could establish an area for their citizens and lock it down, anything that moves outside of that perimeter is destroyed. The area is expanded until the region is secure. Will this plan be 100% successful - No, Some will flee and survive. Life in the middle east will continue, as it has continued since my birth, with Israel suffering the occasional suicide attack or public bombing and occasionally assassinating Palestine leaders (or offshoots thereof). Hate is ingrown into this region and all the USA should do is aide in pulling the weeds every now and again to keep them from infesting other areas. But, like gardening, it is best if weeds are absent, so no whining, how it is "complicated" if there is a chance to significantly eradicate.   

[frankendat]

49 minutes ago, paradime said:

So your short sighted fuck all Palestinians solution is for the US to support our allies in the genocide of their enemies, without consideration of the consequences. With limited reasoning, a child thinks simplistic rationals like that will keep them safe. Hard lesson learned for me, because I went to the hospital way too many times using that logic.

 

I'll own the fact that quoting Yoda is a dubious retort, but...

 'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.'

 

You can view this war through a politically narrowed soda straw, but over 3 millennia of conflict, there is plenty of fear, hatred, and blame for the suffering for them to throw at each other. It's also the standing formula for justifying the never ending cycle of war. It takes more than gin for me to ignore the global complexities going on there, or the fact that 25% of the world's population is Muslim, and 0.2% are Jewish. Even a kindergartner on acid could figure out that just having the biggest stick in the playground is not going to win that fight. If we hope to avoid a 3rd WW, calmer minds must prevail. Unfortunately, those voices are in short supply these days, so I rely on gin logic to make sense of it. The greatest hypocrisy of religious based beliefs is that morality is inversely proportional to one's faith. I'll stand with the hand ringers when well armed religious leaders are fighting in the sandbox of the lord. Instead of these self-righteous leaders preaching and following God's rules to keep their believers safe, all they've given them is fresh fuel to throw on the fire of fear, hatred, and blame for their suffering. Apparently, God doesn't give enough of a shit to take a side.

I do not care who God favors in this war in the same way I do not care about the "fear, hatred and blame" of either side and neither should my Government. The "narrow" straw is rationality. I don't like the mix of religion and politics in this country, but this is a free country and with freedom comes compromise i.e. sharing. I provided the rationale used in my decision making process, you neither provide counterpoint nor alternative solution. 

 

Again---

How is it complex? Two want the same thing - the "best" solution would be "share". Israel and the United Nations have developed and offered many options for sharing and the Palestinians have rejected all. I hear the hand wringing starting...."only the leadership rejected the plan, blah, blah, blah." Refer to bold text. I do not see moral failing holding an individual responsible for the actions of the group, State, Country, or organization, which he swears allegiance, which he serves, or which he benefits.  

The next "best" solution would be to pick a favorite. The USA has picked. Since I acknowledge that fact (which is difficult for hand wringers) I realize if my neighborhood is bombed by Palestine, then I cannot be shocked. I also realize this could entail killing women, children and anything else that walks or crawls in certain swaths of land. 

 

You mentioned "simplistic reasoning", which I assume was meant as a slight, in this instance it is not.  Two want the same thing and one will not share. It is wrong to appease the one who will not share. If world war is necessary to enforce this truth, then I accept it. Not based on religious precepts, not based on political affiliation, because it is right. It is fear that prevents acceptance of the right action-Yoda speaks truth.   

[john510]

Reading through this and NOT wanting to get it into too much, has somebody forgotten who started this most recent fight ? Another thing, does Israel promote terrorism and conspire with other Middle eastern countries to kill Americans or others ? People keep using the word "genocide" while forgetting what happened recently. I firmly believe that if Israel were left alone and not constantly threatened they wouldn't be messing with anybody. Look at the size of Israel compared to the rest of the Middle East that hates them and ask who the problem really is. Muslims don't like the Jewish people period. They also don't like western civilization and its religions. Look who's causing trouble here in the states. It isn't the Jews. There shouldn't be an issue of who to side with IMO. Leave Israel alone and let them have that small chunk of land they live in. I may have got into it too much.

[datzenmike]

I think it safe to say the the latest conflict was promoted by Iran using expendable proxies like Hezbollah.

 

I don't think that Christianity or Judaism advocates holy wars and that dying in one elevates you to paradise. Neither do they say that all other non Christian/Jews are unbeliever infidels and must be converted or destroyed. In fact is there any other religion that advocates killing non believers? Even inside, Islam has two opposing factions that don't get along. The only thing that, sort of unites, them is hating the Jews. I'm not a religious scholar.

[datzenmike]

2 hours ago, yenpit said:

 

Ugh, it is the leftist DA's.  John is exactly correct.............THIS is why I stated what I stated!!  The DA's in the far left blue states, are as corrupt as they come & are letting multiple heavy offenders out without bail.  THIS is the same two tiered judicial system, that we have been talking about for well over a year.  🙄

 

This seems to indicate that overcrowding  led to reform of some laws to reduce jail populations.

 

https://www.ppic.org/blog/falling-jail-populations-have-eased-overcrowding-in-most-county-jails/

[IZRL]

Stop looking at this through a magnifying glass. You guys need to zoom out and try and see the bigger picture. There are elites funding these protests and they are well organized. The government knows where this money is coming from and who the organizers are. And they are sitting back allowing this chaos to go on. The America first and Jewish crowd is starting to get involved and are facing off with the pro Palestine protestors. The gov knows this is going to get ugly and might spark a civil war. This is going to lead to the gov using what's about to pop off as an excuse to inact Martial law. I'm telling you guys I don't think we're going to make it to the November elections. The elites are putting all their chips on the table right now. 

 

Edited May 7 by IZRL

[bananahamuck]

[Draker]

[john510]

7 hours ago, IZRL said:

Stop looking at this through a magnifying glass. You guys need to zoom out and try and see the bigger picture. There are elites funding these protests and they are well organized. The government knows where this money is coming from and who the organizers are. And they are sitting back allowing this chaos to go on. The America first and Jewish crowd is starting to get involved and are facing off with the pro Palestine protestors. The gov knows this is going to get ugly and might spark a civil war. This is going to lead to the gov using what's about to pop off as an excuse to inact Martial law. I'm telling you guys I don't think we're going to make it to the November elections. The elites are putting all the chips on the table right now. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't have an election. With the court cases against Trump kind of falling apart the Dems have pretty much run out of options to keep him out of the White House. Some national emergency might be the last option.

[datzenmike]

Trump will never reach the White House. On the day he is to surrender to authorities he barricades himself in Mara Largo with what supporters he has left and in a scene from Waco the compound burns. The body is never recovered fueling speculation and conspiracy theories.

 

The IDF will flatten Rafah and finally claim victory, Hamas gives up, moves out, nobody want's them, Iran takes them in. Iraq Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia refuse them passage through their countries. The first Russian boatload of survivors strikes a mine in the Straits of Hormuz with large loss of life. Iran blames Mossad. The IDF now concentrates it's focus on Hezbollah in Lebanon. Netanyahu survives an assignation attempt by a Jewish group.

[datzenmike]

What? It couldn't happen? Ex president going to jail? Just proves it can.

[john510]

12 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 On the day he (Trump) is to surrender to authorities he barricades himself in Mara Largo with what supporters he has left and in a scene from Waco the compound burns. The body is never recovered fueling speculation and conspiracy theories.

 

The IDF will flatten Rafah and finally claim victory, Hamas gives up, moves out, nobody want's them, Iran takes them in. Iraq Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia refuse them passage through their countries. The first Russian boatload of survivors strikes a mine in the Straits of Hormuz with large loss of life. Iran blames Mossad. The IDF now concentrates it's focus on Hezbollah in Lebanon. Netanyahu survives an assignation attempt by a Jewish group.

Here's what couldn't happen.

[paradime]

 

On 5/6/2024 at 3:56 PM, john510 said:

Reading through this and NOT wanting to get it into too much, has somebody forgotten who started this most recent fight ? Another thing, does Israel promote terrorism and conspire with other Middle eastern countries to kill Americans or others ? People keep using the word "genocide" while forgetting what happened recently. I firmly believe that if Israel were left alone and not constantly threatened they wouldn't be messing with anybody. Look at the size of Israel compared to the rest of the Middle East that hates them and ask who the problem really is. Muslims don't like the Jewish people period. They also don't like western civilization and its religions. Look who's causing trouble here in the states. It isn't the Jews. There shouldn't be an issue of who to side with IMO. Leave Israel alone and let them have that small chunk of land they live in. I may have got into it too much.

 

You say couldn't happen? NOT wanting to ignore history, has somebody conveniently forgotten who started this whole mess? In fact, under Ottoman Rule, Jews and Islamic Arabs lived in harmony on that patch of dirt for centuries. Shit fell apart there after WWI. Britten and France took over, divided East Africa up for themselves, and blamed powerful Jews in their government for creating the subsequent unrest. After suffering grotesque prejudice and violent persecution, culminating in the events of WWII, it was abundantly clear that the Jewish people needed protection for their survival.

 

Even before Israel was formed in 1948, the cycle of war had begun. Before blaming it all on Palestinian terrorist attacks, consider that Arab settlers had been living there for centuries before their home was annexed with the stroke of another British pen. Seriously, if Russia were to win WWIII and annexed San Diego for Ukrainian settlers, would you accept it, or fight against it with what ever means necessary?

 

The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about a Palestinian state with self-determination alongside Israel. Despite the bad blood, this would include Palestinian claims to national sovereignty, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty. The 1st Oslo Accord was signed by Yitzhak Rabin 30 yrs ago on September 13, 1993. The Israeli and Palestinian leadership formally recognize the other for the first time, and pledged to end their decades-long military conflict. After 2 yrs of relative peace, the 2nd accord was signed in September 1995 and went into more detail on the the peace-process.

 

The Israeli right wing was so opposed to the Accords, Rabin was assassinated shortly after signing them. Under Netanyahu, the Oslo Accords fell apart, with him refusing to withdraw the Israeli militarily from the majority of the West Bank. Tensions ramped up with a 3X increase of Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. As well as continued raids into land Israel agreed was under the full administration of Palestinian Authority, which sparked more violence and escalating military clashes. 

 

As for the most recent attack, Iran was so threatened by Trump's peace plan, and Biden's deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia, they trained, financed, and armed Islamic fundamentalist Hamas animals as proxies for the Oct 7 attack. To protect their religious dictatorship, they'll sabotage any effort for Middle East peace. If I didn't see it, I'd think all this couldn't happen.

Edited May 8 by paradime

[IZRL]

3 hours ago, datzenmike said:

What? It couldn't happen? Ex president going to jail? Just proves it can.

The left better pray he goes to jail. Actually I know they're praying. Cause if he doesn't get locked up there's no chance he doesn't win. More and more youre starting to hear people on the left/middle left say they're voting republican these elections. 

 

And if that happens, heads are gonna start rolling on the left right off the rip. All those crooked mofos currently in office, as we say in spanish, "tienen cola que les pisen"(they have a tail to be stepped on). Meaning they all have something to answer for - (Joe, Hunter, Pelosi, Clinton etc...). Those pieces of shit don't know what they've started.

Edited May 8 by IZRL

[datzenmike]

Interesting times.

[IZRL]

 

20 hours ago, john510 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't have an election. With the court cases against Trump kind of falling apart the Dems have pretty much run out of options to keep him out of the White House. Some national emergency might be the last option.

 

I'm of the belief that in order to find the US government's true intentions in the world. You have to read between the bullshit. You have to take what they tell us as if you were dealing with a known compulsive lier who is a master of slight of hand. I used this theory during covid and I think it paid off.

 

They've lied us into war multiple times over our country's history. I lost all trust in our gov. after they were caught lying to get us into the Iraqi war. I wasn't aware that the Iraqi war was only one of multiple wars the US has lied us into, until recently. 

 

Ever since they took out Saddam Hussein. I've been keeping an eye out for world leaders the US has had a hand in removing, replacing, or helped get elected. The list is long. "According to one study, the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections during the period 1946–2000. According to another study, the U.S. engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change during the Cold War". There's been more from 2000 till now.

 

After all this, the theory that "conspiracy theorist" have had about the end goal being for there to be a one world government doesn't sound so crazy to me. I think all roads are starting to lead to that. There aren't many countries left that would not bow down to this idea. It seems the mission to dismantle the last of the countries that would resist, has begun.

Edited May 8 by IZRL

[bottomwatcher]

3 hours ago, IZRL said:

 Meaning they all have something to answer for - (Joe, Hunter, Pelosi, Clinton etc...). Those pieces of shit don't know what they've started.

They do have something to answer for but nothing happens. Ever! Trump promised to go after Hillary but as usual nothing happened. Keep waiting for these scum to be held accountable and watch them drop from old age. 

[IZRL]

1 hour ago, bottomwatcher said:

They do have something to answer for but nothing happens. Ever! Trump promised to go after Hillary but as usual nothing happened. Keep waiting for these scum to be held accountable and watch them drop from old age. 

Keep in mind though, at that time they hadn't come after him yet. By going after an ex-president, they disrupted the order of things. For better or worse, they're all fair game now if you ask me.

Edited May 8 by IZRL

[john510]

9 hours ago, paradime said:

 

 

You say couldn't happen? NOT wanting to ignore history, has somebody conveniently forgotten who started this whole mess? In fact, under Ottoman Rule, Jews and Islamic Arabs lived in harmony on that patch of dirt for centuries. Shit fell apart there after WWI. Britten and France took over, divided East Africa up for themselves, and blamed powerful Jews in their government for creating the subsequent unrest. After suffering grotesque prejudice and violent persecution, culminating in the events of WWII, it was abundantly clear that the Jewish people needed protection for their survival.

 

Even before Israel was formed in 1948, the cycle of war had begun. Before blaming it all on Palestinian terrorist attacks, consider that Arab settlers had been living there for centuries before their home was annexed with the stroke of another British pen. Seriously, if Russia were to win WWIII and annexed San Diego for Ukrainian settlers, would you accept it, or fight against it with what ever means necessary?

 

The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about a Palestinian state with self-determination alongside Israel. Despite the bad blood, this would include Palestinian claims to national sovereignty, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty. The 1st Oslo Accord was signed by Yitzhak Rabin 30 yrs ago on September 13, 1993. The Israeli and Palestinian leadership formally recognize the other for the first time, and pledged to end their decades-long military conflict. After 2 yrs of relative peace, the 2nd accord was signed in September 1995 and went into more detail on the the peace-process.

 

The Israeli right wing was so opposed to the Accords, Rabin was assassinated shortly after signing them. Under Netanyahu, the Oslo Accords fell apart, with him refusing to withdraw the Israeli militarily from the majority of the West Bank. Tensions ramped up with a 3X increase of Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. As well as continued raids into land Israel agreed was under the full administration of Palestinian Authority, which sparked more violence and escalating military clashes. 

 

As for the most recent attack, Iran was so threatened by Trump's peace plan, and Biden's deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia, they trained, financed, and armed Islamic fundamentalist Hamas animals as proxies for the Oct 7 attack. To protect their religious dictatorship, they'll sabotage any effort for Middle East peace. If I didn't see it, I'd think all this couldn't happen.

Israel doesn't terrorize the world and speak openly of killing off western civilization. The Muslims do. And the ones that don't refuse to speak out against the terrorizing. Sounds like you're blaming it on Israel for existing.

[datzenmike]

6 hours ago, IZRL said:

 

 

I'm of the belief that in order to find the US government's true intentions in the world. You have to read between the bullshit. You have to take what they tell us as if you were dealing with a known compulsive lier who is a master of slight of hand. I used this theory during covid and I think it paid off.

 

 

 

Christ Trump would have fit right in!!!

 

6 hours ago, IZRL said:

 

They've lied us into war multiple times over our country's history. I lost all trust in our gov. after they were caught lying to get us into the Iraqi war. I wasn't aware that the Iraqi war was only one of multiple wars the US has lied us into, until recently. 

 

Ever since they took out Saddam Hussein. I've been keeping an eye out for world leaders the US has had a hand in removing, replacing, or helped get elected. The list is long. "According to one study, the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections during the period 1946–2000. According to another study, the U.S. engaged in 64 covert and six overt attempts at regime change during the Cold War". There's been more from 2000 till now.

 

After all this, the theory that "conspiracy theorist" have had about the end goal being for there to be a one world government doesn't sound so crazy to me. I think all roads are starting to lead to that. There aren't many countries left that would not bow down to this idea. It seems the mission to dismantle the last of the countries that would resist, has begun.

 

Well this is what happens when you are the world leader. Do you play fair and let some other countries that are counter to your safety and economy walk in and take over? Do you let them dictate terms? Hell no! Takes a lot of work to stay on the top of the pile and protect your interests globally. It may appear that you are trying for a one world government but it's really for economic interests. If there was a one world government you don't want someone else being in charge. 

[IZRL]

5 hours ago, datzenmike said:

11 hours ago, IZRL said:

 

 

I'm of the belief that in order to find the US government's true intentions in the world. You have to read between the bullshit. You have to take what they tell us as if you were dealing with a known compulsive lier who is a master of slight of hand. I used this theory during covid and I think it paid off.

 

 

 

Christ Trump would have fit right in!!!

 

🤔 Still trying to figure out where you got that i was excluding Trump in this part of my post?? Where in "US Government" did you get "everyone except Trump"?

 

I think you forget I'm not a fan of Trump either and have yet to make excuses or defend his sins on this thread. Why would I start now? Having said that, he is the lesser evil in this shit soup. At least in my book.

[paradime]

7 hours ago, john510 said:

Israel doesn't terrorize the world and speak openly of killing off western civilization. The Muslims do. And the ones that don't refuse to speak out against the terrorizing. Sounds like you're blaming it on Israel for existing.

 

 

I offered an ignored perspective on this conflict. Sounds like you have no foundation for argument, so you reinterpret my post as you usually do.

 

The vast majority of devout Muslims are peaceful, because they follow Muhammed's teachings, just like devout Christians who follow Christ's teachings. A cycle of violence creates extremism. As with any religious war, radical fundamentalists filled with hate paint the gilt of their enemy's citizens with a broad brush without compassion, and distort God's message to justify their grotesque acts of brutality against them. In a country run by radical fundamentalists filled with hate, dissenters are executed in public view. Forced obedience and fear keeps them from speaking out against the terrorist acts of their oppressive religious dictators. This woman was executed by Hamas.

 

 

In a free society, Muslims do speak out against terrorism in the name of Allah.

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/0bEje90wYCs?si=foYj_Ml8UmDj9lmW

 

https://youtu.be/WUMA3AkQYSE?si=m4fbdentvQghjjrj

 

https://youtu.be/tTKfBMWebGE?si=lYUc97kTvwvX-nLK

 

https://youtu.be/4e93rcFlMAA?si=uTOp-IVdauJ8BEdT

 

https://youtu.be/nByf7_Nr_WM?si=e5nXqnOnnkuSF25d

 

https://youtu.be/BSAzvsYvqCY?si=p6c-0g1M0bppMC_3

 

https://youtu.be/BSAzvsYvqCY?si=3RGjPnFKzZ9LFG-G

 

https://youtu.be/V3osO1NkwD0?si=bx_dgC3CJa1WYYBa

 

https://youtu.be/WCTla5lupzc?si=mlsxHwXOTY9ODJ8W&t=96

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8 by paradime

[datzenmike]

9 minutes ago, IZRL said:

 

🤔 Still trying to figure out where you got that i was excluding Trump in this part of my post?? Where in "US Government" did you get "everyone except Trump"?

 

I think you forget I'm not a fan of Trump either and have yet to make excuses or defend his sins on this thread. Why would I start now? Having said that, he is the lesser evil in this shit soup. At least in my book.

 

 Well Trump is not in the present government is he? He's private citizen who once was elected to office but now is back to being a private citizen. I don't think being a former president is a public office is it? The GOP and their voters, by condoning Trump's disgusting misogynistic and immoral behavior, lies and bullshit just shows how spinless they are by allowing it in the first place. What will you say next? that you need evil to fight evil? So yeah, being a compulsive liar makes him eminently suitable for public office.  

[IZRL]

1 minute ago, datzenmike said:

Well Trump is not in the present government is he?

I was talking about the "entire" history of the US Gov in that post. Not just about the current admin. I specifically said that I lost trust in our Gov starting during Bush Jr. administration. It opened me eyes to all the bullshit we were fed before Bush. Which led me to question everything we've been told after Bush.