mainer311 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, Crashtd420 said: That's atleast cheaper than that kamera chain tensioner setup.... I dont really see the need for that though.... once the rebuild is done how often will you be removing the head? It only pops out if done wrong.... The only shitty part about pulling the front cover to reset the chain is having to drop the oil pan, but I would rather do it that way so I know everything is correct.... I dont like to assume.... If you have the head off, do you still need to pull the pan? Can't you just undo the front bolts, and then pull the front cover out the top? 1 Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, mainer311 said: If you have the head off, do you still need to pull the pan? Can't you just undo the front bolts, and then pull the front cover out the top? I suppose , but there are those 2 dowels on the front cover..... those would make that a little tricky.... You would risk tearing the oil pan gasket... Edited December 17, 2019 by Crashtd420 1 Quote Link to comment
mainer311 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Crashtd420 said: I suppose , but there are those 2 dowels on the front cover..... those would make that a little tricky.... You would risk tearing the oil pan gasket... Interestingly enough, I just redid my pan last winter and don't recall ever seeing those dowels. I think the PO removed them at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, mainer311 said: Interestingly enough, I just redid my pan last winter and don't recall ever seeing those dowels. I think the PO removed them at some point. The dowels are not in the oil pan they are in the front cover... top right and lower left, so the front cover needs to slide forward first....... they keep the oil spindle aligned with the crank gear.... I lost the lower one and it bound up the gear on the crank, even with all the bolts in the cover was just enough off.... 1 Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Timing cover is aligned so it centers the crankshaft seal. It uses two dowels and has to come forward at least 1/4". Goes on the same way. Yes the tensioner holder is pretty much useless for the majority of owners. If you were racing and pulled the head off every few weeks then one would be handy Just how hard would it be to simply make one????? 2 Quote Link to comment
mainer311 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Gotcha. Maybe I'll just leave it alone and do the water pump. I wanted to do a whole timing set, but mine is probably fine. 1 Quote Link to comment
d.p Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Easy for me because I am building the motor anyway and the last thing I want to do is worry about the chain tensioner popping out EVER again. $100 for peace of mind is good enough for me. 1 Quote Link to comment
d.p Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) FWIW what the front looks like without the TC: Edited December 17, 2019 by d.p 1 Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, d.p said: Easy for me because I am building the motor anyway and the last thing I want to do is worry about the chain tensioner popping out EVER again. $100 for peace of mind is good enough for me. It's not bad.... 100 is acceptable when a regular new one is 20 to 40 depending on quality.... I suppose piece of mind if you ever need to pull the head... 1 Quote Link to comment
Stoffregen Motorsports Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 I will once again share my unpopular point of view. One of the tricks I learned during my years building engines for Rebello was to cut the plunger spring in half. This makes it near impossible to lose the tensioner plunger when the upper cam gear is removed. If the chain geometry is properly set (without slack and nice transition between plunger and curved guide), there will be no danger of anything. No noise, no slack, whatever. Setting the guide geometry is easy, but may require slotting the holes in the guides and may also require one extra rubber washer behind the plunger. Some of you have pointed out that doing this is bad, very, very bad, but I will point to all the engines I have built as proof of concept. Make your own decision, but you can't argue that it doesn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment
d.p Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Does cutting the spring just prevent it from fully extending and popping out? IE removing some of the tension from it? 1 Quote Link to comment
Stoffregen Motorsports Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) Yes. It is extra important to have good geometry though, so the tension in the chain doesn't wear out the guides prematurely. I guess I should explain that setting up the geometry is done with the head on and the upper cam gear installed. This ensures good tension. Once it is set up, you can remove the upper cam gear anytime you want, but you may need to help it onto the cam with a large phillips screwdriver. Edited December 17, 2019 by Stoffregen Motorsports 2 Quote Link to comment
mainer311 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 I wish I had some CAD of that timing chain tool. I'd just go 3D print one for myself. 1 Quote Link to comment
greenthumb Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just get DP to photocopy it with a few measurements in case it is not entirely accurate on the photocopy. Draw it up and print away 1 Quote Link to comment
wayno Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 I just use about 1" X 2" wood sticks if I cannot find these plastic ones I have. Never lost a tensioner with them, you can see I find the one more often than the other as it is very dirty. By the way, as I recall the oil pressure pushes the tensioner against the chain, not the spring, so having the spring is likely to stop start up noise when there is no oil pressure. 1 Quote Link to comment
d.p Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, greenthumb said: Just get DP to photocopy it with a few measurements in case it is not entirely accurate on the photocopy. Draw it up and print away I''ll do it and post a link to it here soon. Or if you want Mainer I will ship it to you if you make me an extra one. LMK Edited December 17, 2019 by d.p 1 Quote Link to comment
mainer311 Posted December 17, 2019 Report Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, d.p said: I''ll do it and post a link to it here soon. Or if you want Mainer I will ship it to you if you make me an extra one. LMK Thanks. A picture with some rudimentary dimensions would be awesome. I’m particularly just interested in the straight bottom half. Edited December 17, 2019 by mainer311 1 Quote Link to comment
d.p Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 Ok. Will have something tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 wayno I measured the tensioner plunger's diameter and worked out the area. Then concluded that at 55 PSI oil pressure the plunger pushes out at about 8 pounds. It's not much and barely anything at idle. On top of that there is an oil jet on it so you won't get the full oil pressure either. I think the oil is to lube the plunger and provide for the oil jet to lube the chain, the spring does all the work. 1 Quote Link to comment
Stoffregen Motorsports Posted December 18, 2019 Report Share Posted December 18, 2019 8 hours ago, wayno said: By the way, as I recall the oil pressure pushes the tensioner against the chain, not the spring, so having the spring is likely to stop start up noise when there is no oil pressure. 54 minutes ago, datzenmike said: wayno I measured the tensioner plunger's diameter and worked out the area. Then concluded that at 55 PSI oil pressure the plunger pushes out at about 8 pounds. It's not much and barely anything at idle. On top of that there is an oil jet on it so you won't get the full oil pressure either. I think the oil is to lube the plunger and provide for the oil jet to lube the chain, the spring does all the work. If the geometry is set and adjusted so the chain is tensioned, there is no worry about lack of proper tension on the chain. No noise on startup, no fluttering at partial throttle, no worries that it will fall apart at high RPMs. I've built over a hundred engines this way and absolutely never had a problem. I'm only asking that you trust that I am not steering you wrong. I wouldn't suggest some trick that I wasn't sure of. 3 Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 So one of the things I was hoping to do this winter is drill and tap my intake in preparation of adding a pcv valve.... When I was looking up a replacement gasket I came across something saying this style gasket is not good with a header because the exhaust between 2 and 3 is open.... I believe I have this type on my head right now and haven't had a problem that i am aware of... also these seem to be the only type available... is it really going to be an issue? Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) And it may sound wierd but I have the w53 head and that one fit better than a felpro I had which had just holes where the bolts go ..... Kind of like this.... which I just found on ebay.... So should I buy this type and make it fit my intake port? Edited December 22, 2019 by Crashtd420 Quote Link to comment
wayno Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) I always use the type not open in the middle, the type that has 4 separate exhaust holes even though I use the stock L16 exhaust manifolds now. Edited December 22, 2019 by wayno Quote Link to comment
mainer311 Posted December 22, 2019 Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 I’m actually in the market for one as well, since I’ll be pulling that all apart soon. The Nissan gasket is kind of weird. Like, why are the front two intake ports tear-drop shaped? Quote Link to comment
Crashtd420 Posted December 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, mainer311 said: I’m actually in the market for one as well, since I’ll be pulling that all apart soon. The Nissan gasket is kind of weird. Like, why are the front two intake ports tear-drop shaped? I believe it's clearance for injectors... the w53 head on the l18 had a factory fuel injection system so there were small notches... Quote Link to comment
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