510 out cornered by vw! how do i fix this calamity?

[Uber Deaf One]

My 510 can leave my mom's modded '05 Jetta GLI in the twisties like nothing......

 

You should still be able to leave your buddy sitting.... but he may just be a better driver. Then again I don't really see twisties as a good place to really push yourself and your car. My buddy can leave me sitting in the twisties, but it's a different story on a track where I know I won't run into a deer or a stalled car around a blind corner...

 

I was running 225 lbs up front with a 1" solid bar (DGR) and recently went up to 275 lbs up front. This gave me a lot more grip. I also have a little stiffer springs (300 lbs) in the rear to help the car rotate on the throttle. The Subaru LSD I have does have a little too much locking for my tastes though.. you guys with open diffs probably don't have to run stiffer springs (relative to the front) in the rear.

 

Doing an Autocross event in a couple weeks, and a track day on March 3rd... I'll really get to see how my new spring package works.

 

225 lbs IMO is too soft for a KA 510... and it's even worse for you without a front bar. Get a DGR sway bar and see how the car feels. Also a couple degrees of camber in the back is bad... slot your crossmember... I'm running -1.5 degrees in the back. It's a nice balance between low speed and high speed grip.

[INDY510]

.

Got a link to the auto-cross site for the bayarea? ... . . .. :cool:

[Uber Deaf One]

This is who I run with... http://www.sfrscca.o...t/view/4555/32/

 

Unfortunately the KA swap in my 510 pretty much means I get placed in classes where I stand no chance at being competitive. So I have just been doing fun runs. This season I'm going to race in OSP and the only other OSP car I've seen out here is a replica Cobra with fat slicks. Still, last time out I was only 4-5 seconds slower than him, on all season tires I got some 205-50 summer tires and a new spring package now...... we'll see what happens. I'll be out at the Feb 19th event.

[albyneau]

If there were such a thing as a short physics lesson~ this would be it. I'm tired~ and cuttin' to the chase....

Sway bars keep the opposite end and the opposite corner of the vehicle from pitching in a curve; the front controls the back, the back the front. If you drive mostly on bumpy roads you want soft springs and stiff swaybars~ vice versa for smooth roads. Welded pinions are a poor man's grenade up the @$$ of your car. Spools belong in three places only; sprint cars (not sprint cup), rallye cars in dirt (Pike's Peak, etc.), and drag racers~ basicly offroad or straightline. If you want your car to handle the accepted front/rear swaybar ratio is 1/.75 f/r for a front engine/rear drive car. You can fine tune both bars with the addition/subtraction of poly bushings vs. rubber; when adding/subtracting it's equivalent to a jump/decrease in bar diameter of 1/8" per bar. Heim joints are the next step~ but not really road worthy for a car that sees some street miles. Now here's the part where I'm sure to ruffle some feathers. 510's (like my '85 Celica GTS, and all early Supras) are not true IRS in the geometric sense~ they're more like bastardchilds of a true IRS and the VW swing axle. The geometry of the lower control arm pivots cause the tire to toe-out slightly during suspension compression, and toe-in during extension. This will make the rear when cornering feel like it's washing out on you. With no swaybars your car must feel like a buggy from centuries past. Move the batt (if not already) to the trunk's right side~ even an IRS car will torque-pitch the body slightly from right to left during hard acceleration. Small diameter tires have a smaller contact patch~ my stock Corvair (real IRS) has nearly the contact area of your tires. Get bigger wheels; pound for pound (so to speak) wheels are lighter than tires~ you'll increase contact patch and not penalize your unsprung weight ratio (how fast your suspension can oscillate over bumps/dips).

 

Nuf said for now~ I'm tired...

Peace~

Scott

[strang3majik]

Driver does have a lot to do with it though.

 

I know Mustangs aren't real corner happy, but...I was all over a Mustang Cobra (mid 90s) in the twisties in my 98 Grand Cherokee.

 

So yeah. :)

[Laecaon]

Driver does have a lot to do with it though.

 

I know Mustangs aren't real corner happy, but...I was all over a Mustang Cobra (mid 90s) in the twisties in my 98 Grand Cherokee.

 

So yeah. :)

 

Grand Cherokee? Scariest vehicles of my life. We had 2 2001 Grand Cherokees that had so much body roll it wasnt even funny. My mom is a gentle driver, not one to pull lateral G's and she would have that thing feel like it was tipping over. Enough for me to never like Jeeps again.

[ggzilla]

The mid-90s Cobras were the ones that cornered well, very well. They were also bought by guys with more money than driving know-how.

[strang3majik]

Grand Cherokee? Scariest vehicles of my life. We had 2 2001 Grand Cherokees that had so much body roll it wasnt even funny. My mom is a gentle driver, not one to pull lateral G's and she would have that thing feel like it was tipping over. Enough for me to never like Jeeps again.

 

I don't like that body style...way different then the older ones.

 

I have a 98 5.9L. They had a little bit stiffer springs and bigger sway bars, but, I've done some pretty scary cornering with it, and, it does it like a champ. Definitley had it doing things a Jeep should never do...haha. But, it by no means handles well...just well for what it is.

 

Now...my 88 RX7 vert I had...Omg! I've yet to drive my 510, but, if it handles anything similar to that car, I may.......well nevermind I best not say :P But, that RX7 was the greatest handling car I've ever driven and I've driven some supposed corner carvers.

 

Now...my Omni GLH (very close to the VW the OP is talking about...even shares much of the suspension design) does corner very well and I would put it in the upper ratings of handling cars I've driven, but, the fact its FWD kills it as it understeers like mad to the point its almost scary at any type of speed.

 

So...in the 510, I really think, sway bars or not, you should have him. Now, you may be looking straight at his driver door through the windshield as you pass him, but, you should indeed pass him. (maybe not on the street...but, you get my point)

[ggzilla]

Handling is nice, but roadholding is better. You can have a very good handling car which corners very slowly. Or a bad handling car that corners very quickly -- like older Porsche 911s.

[strang3majik]

Handling is nice, but roadholding is better. You can have a very good handling car which corners very slowly. Or a bad handling car that corners very quickly -- like older Porsche 911s.

 

:blink: My mind has been boggled. You talking straight line handling/stability?

[Laecaon]

My Jetta likes to oversteer... But this is a recent finding as its rear tires are stock with 130k on them (well we go the car at 56k and the tires were the same as OEM branding, and we have yet to change them...).

[banzai510(hainz)]

A VW FOX oh thats bad

But one thing I learned I wont take on a 240sx thru the corner.

I went to show him the orginal could do it. I went in to the curn and fucked my front ened up and had Frank and jeff put a whole new front end on

I wont race like that again. (Use a 85 RX7 to smash)

let it go!

 

I think the spring set up you have to too stiff for the street myself.

 

run a front swaw bar and NO bar in back

[jrock4224]

I have a bad feeling they would win...

 

yeah we(ratsuners) would all be sitting around banging beers together telling storys and laughing while them dubbers were looking for another arm patch for there shop jacket they wear to there desk job.... :cool:

 

everybodys a winner when the race is hard parking..... :)

 

stay off the streets driving all nutsy ...no one wants to read a ...i wrecked my 510 thread... :blink:

 

besides who pimps a vw fox....my neighbor had the fast back fox other wise known as the dasher.....

;)

edit ...u were born when i was in highschool....facepalm....slow your roll before your crack your shit up...as i been reminded several times in life.... :lol:

[q-tip]

problem 1 no sway bar.

 

problem 2 front poly bushings on lca's, they will tend to bind up and can also hinder caster. YOU NEED MORE CASTER!!

 

you never tell us what the car actually did. i have a ka24de ground control rear coil overs, 280zx fronts with koni adjustables (set all the way down) and coil overs w/325# springs, 1"? front sway bar and unfortunately poly bushings on the lca's. car handles awesome. sway bar disconnected, my 3/4 ton dodge handles better nuff said

[Fillmoe_Coleman]

My 510 can leave my mom's modded '05 Jetta GLI in the twisties like nothing......

 

You should still be able to leave your buddy sitting.... but he may just be a better driver. Then again I don't really see twisties as a good place to really push yourself and your car. My buddy can leave me sitting in the twisties, but it's a different story on a track where I know I won't run into a deer or a stalled car around a blind corner...

 

I was running 225 lbs up front with a 1" solid bar (DGR) and recently went up to 275 lbs up front. This gave me a lot more grip. I also have a little stiffer springs (300 lbs) in the rear to help the car rotate on the throttle. The Subaru LSD I have does have a little too much locking for my tastes though.. you guys with open diffs probably don't have to run stiffer springs (relative to the front) in the rear.

 

Doing an Autocross event in a couple weeks, and a track day on March 3rd... I'll really get to see how my new spring package works.

 

225 lbs IMO is too soft for a KA 510... and it's even worse for you without a front bar. Get a DGR sway bar and see how the car feels. Also a couple degrees of camber in the back is bad... slot your crossmember... I'm running -1.5 degrees in the back. It's a nice balance between low speed and high speed grip.

 

are you running a rear bar? are your rear spring in the stock location or mounted like mine. (where the stock shocks were) because as you know that's a big difference due to the leverage applied. also keep in mind i have a 4 door. Thanks for the reply.

[Fillmoe_Coleman]

If there were such a thing as a short physics lesson~ this would be it. I'm tired~ and cuttin' to the chase....

Sway bars keep the opposite end and the opposite corner of the vehicle from pitching in a curve; the front controls the back, the back the front. If you drive mostly on bumpy roads you want soft springs and stiff swaybars~ vice versa for smooth roads. Welded pinions are a poor man's grenade up the @$$ of your car. Spools belong in three places only; sprint cars (not sprint cup), rallye cars in dirt (Pike's Peak, etc.), and drag racers~ basicly offroad or straightline. If you want your car to handle the accepted front/rear swaybar ratio is 1/.75 f/r for a front engine/rear drive car. You can fine tune both bars with the addition/subtraction of poly bushings vs. rubber; when adding/subtracting it's equivalent to a jump/decrease in bar diameter of 1/8" per bar. Heim joints are the next step~ but not really road worthy for a car that sees some street miles. Now here's the part where I'm sure to ruffle some feathers. 510's (like my '85 Celica GTS, and all early Supras) are not true IRS in the geometric sense~ they're more like bastardchilds of a true IRS and the VW swing axle. The geometry of the lower control arm pivots cause the tire to toe-out slightly during suspension compression, and toe-in during extension. This will make the rear when cornering feel like it's washing out on you. With no swaybars your car must feel like a buggy from centuries past. Move the batt (if not already) to the trunk's right side~ even an IRS car will torque-pitch the body slightly from right to left during hard acceleration. Small diameter tires have a smaller contact patch~ my stock Corvair (real IRS) has nearly the contact area of your tires. Get bigger wheels; pound for pound (so to speak) wheels are lighter than tires~ you'll increase contact patch and not penalize your unsprung weight ratio (how fast your suspension can oscillate over bumps/dips).

 

Nuf said for now~ I'm tired...

Peace~

Scott

 

thanks for the info. i already knew about the rear control arm geometry. I have read that slotting and re aligning toe to 0 at your intended ride height will fix this for t he most part.

[Fillmoe_Coleman]

problem 1 no sway bar.

 

problem 2 front poly bushings on lca's, they will tend to bind up and can also hinder caster. YOU NEED MORE CASTER!!

 

you never tell us what the car actually did. i have a ka24de ground control rear coil overs, 280zx fronts with koni adjustables (set all the way down) and coil overs w/325# springs, 1"? front sway bar and unfortunately poly bushings on the lca's. car handles awesome. sway bar disconnected, my 3/4 ton dodge handles better nuff said

 

so you are running 325 all around? and no rear bar? it not like my car did anything abnormal. i just pushed it to its limits and was unable to keep up with a 92 fox. now keep in mind i had driven this fox and i was a better driver than the kid who owned it in his own car. plus i like how you can just power into corners and not worry about a thing. (just dont let off the gas) lol that fox is now in the tacoma pick n pull. the kids fine.

[71Stroker]

Cornering? Put an L16 and 4 speed in there and loose well over 100 lbs off the front. Other than that..... driving lessons??? :lol:

 

no disrespect intended, but...

 

I will use myself as an example, Awhile back I went down to california speedway to hook up with John ( datrod ) and another guy I knew to watch some scca racing ( something I have never done ) in my Z car, which does not have anything too fancy in the suspension dept, ( just upgraded springs and struts and bushings and some softish yokohama tires ) anyways the guys keep after me to do some runs, so I give it a go, run something like a 79 sec run, ( im thinking I pushed it to the max...little did i know..) so , my friend who is one of the points leaders or best guys on the track, says to let him run it around, so we do, with me in the pass. seat, and damm this guy shaves like 10 seconds off my time without breaking a sweat..did like a 68 second run...and thats not knowing my car or how it handled at all..

point is, driving skill accounts for a LOT...I guess the real way to find out whos skill is better, is to use the same vehicle on a controlled envrioment..like autocross...and see who the better driver really is..

[Uber Deaf One]

are you running a rear bar? are your rear spring in the stock location or mounted like mine. (where the stock shocks were) because as you know that's a big difference due to the leverage applied. also keep in mind i have a 4 door. Thanks for the reply.

 

No rear bar, springs are in the stock location. My actual rear spring rate is 1140 lbs, but due to the leverage it comes out to 300ish.

[Duke]

The easiest handling upgrade and the MOST EFFECTIVE is TIRES! It doesn't matter if you have all the good suspension bolt ons in the world, if you have shitty tires, you car will still won't be able to corner to it's maximum ability. So before you spend you hard earned money on new coilovers, t/c rods, camber plates, etc. invest in a good set of tires. After you have done this, then you can start evaluating what needs adjustment/modification in the suspension department. Trying to make a corner fast on shitty tires is totally pointless.

[DISLEXICDIME]

and once you get good tires you will find out where all your bad bushings are ;) ;)

[q-tip]

im running 325# spring up front (i dont remember the rear spring rate) i do have a rear sway bar its 3/4" or 7/8". i should also point out that i have a custom rear sump oil pan so i have a regular 510 sway bar set. duke made a hugely valid point best mod for handling is tires.

[HRH]

The reason you didn't win is because you need to tighten the loose nut behind the steering wheel! ;) You know how many people I used to spank in my hardbody pickup at autocross? It has shit balance but I drove it balls out all the time and knew the exact limits of the truck.

 

Regardless, yes you need a front bar, probably stiffer springs, and probably a lot more seat time with the car. If it doesn't feel "right", it's not! Hence why my 510 is down for massive modifications because I want it to handle as well as the NX did.

[DAT510]

Bookmarked ;)

lots of good info here

[ggzilla]

Handling is nice, but roadholding is better. You can have a very good handling car which corners very slowly. Or a bad handling car that corners very quickly -- like older Porsche 911s.

 

:blink: My mind has been boggled. You talking straight line handling/stability?

 

Nope. Talking about corners.

* Handling is how nicely a car transitions, not how fast it corners

* Roadholding is how much it sticks, how fast it corners

 

A good handling car does nothing unexpected. When at the limit it doesn't snap suddenly and spin.

 

Did you see the Top Gear episode of Evo vs WRX? The WRX wallowed and bogged looked really awful, while the Evo handled like a dream and looked super fast. Guess which one ran the course the fastest?