510 out cornered by vw! how do i fix this calamity?

[kneesamo]

Read this, read the whole series, and others like it.

 

The Ultimate Guide to Suspension and Handling

 

 

Read it once, read it twice, read it until registers.

 

Understanding how your suspension works has a lot to do with being a better driver. Although there are those people out there, that are just naturally better at it, or they just grew up driving on twisty mountain roads and don't know any better.

 

Having your suspension set-up properly will allow for your driving skills to truly shine, and if you don't have any skills, well, it will at least make you faster.

 

 

Take two cars:

 

One is totally stock, with stock tires.

 

The other has an unmatched configuration of aftermarket suspension parts, with stock tires.

 

Which do you think is going to handle better?

[Stupid_fast]

@kneesamo, That was one of the most useful things I have read. Reinforced and gave a lot clearer explanation to what I had already known.

 

Time to tune-out all that understeer in my goon! hah.

[pl521sss]

If you want to race him again and your car is not ready.

Can loan you my 1992 Sentra SE-R, excellent street car

But you need to leave your KA510 with me till race is done

 

And if you want to beat him on a drag race

Can loan you my VQ35 powered 510, just make sure you can control the beast when you launch it

That one I need 10K deposit

[Zfighter76]

suspension is a weird thing, my loward 620 corners better than my friends 510 on konis and ground controls. it is as much about skill as it is about setup but at the same time a good setup is very helpful. vw fox is a front drive front engine car. the engine is(im assuming the same as a rabbit) a 1.6 that is light enough for one man(with some muscle)to pick up on his own. theres a reason the old rabbit gti is said by a countless number of racing professionals to be the best car as far as handling goes for a street car, its an amazing car. the fox is very similar if i remember correctly.

[Z chopper]

I kinda sped read through this, so my suggestions might have already been said.

 

other than matched sway bars, get front and rear strut tower braces, non-welded subaru LSD, disk brakes at all 4 corners.

[ggzilla]

And do not neglect to rev it up! Don't shift till you get to 6k.

[q-tip]

Its a ka man, revs dont get you much :lol:

[Boaty]

Front braces don't do much of anything, if measurable at all.

They are there to look pretty in a 510. Which is why you rarely see one.

 

Not having a front sway bar probably killed your ability to corner. You start getting body roll, which on the leading edge of the outside tire is introduced the very same effect as positive camber.

Get a front sway bar from Dan Gallemeister at DGR Fabrication. If you add a rear bar, it won't do much but give you a better turn in, but at the same time give you a shit ton of oversteer depending on what you're running for rear camber, and obviously what tires you've got. Keep in mind, the car you were following is likely lighter than yours. Weight kills.

 

225# should be ballpark good for a KA, beings as it's generally regarded as too stiff for an L-series. This also depends on what is being ran in the rear.

A welded diff in a 510 is just wrong. Get a Subaru LSD. That welded diff is causing a lot of understeer, whether you notice it or not. An LSD does the same thing only it won't be batshit nuts. Just going from an LSD to my open diff, required me to re-learn how to drive the bloody car.... much better turn in.

 

Make sure your T/C rods aren't binding. I'll likely end up with a set of myself, but I've heard mix/match ideas about how good they are. Adjust-ability is a plus, but binding is just all bad. I run the T/C kit from Experimental Engineering (Nismo delrin clone... actually not Delrin, next step up - no clue what it's called.) P.S. Don't run poly bushings in the rear control arms. They will bind at nearly stock height... nothing wrong with OE rubber bushings. In addition, OE rubber replacements on the front control arms are actually tighter than poly bushings... go figure. And if you don't believe me, try it out yourself.

 

PS - you want understeer, not oversteer. A 510 is not a drift car, nor will it ever be. Nor should it ever be. Nor will it ever be good at it, even if you put the money into it. And if you wreck it, you'll regret it. Such is life when you drive a 510. If you ever end up in a position where that understeer caused you to wreck your car, then consider that you deserved it. :)

[Boaty]

PS - a B210 steering box is identical to a 510 steering box, the ratio's are the same. They are a direct replacement, and I believe they are an identical Nissan P/N but the pitman arms may be different.

 

Only way that I know of changing the steering ratio is to use 280zx steering knuckles. Which brings me back to something I've explained a million times... is dangerous. Way too quick, way too uncontrollable, way too hard to turn the wheel in a parking lot, way more strain and effort for driving, way more stress on parts, way not cool for a 510... But I digress.

 

4AM I'm bringing my ass to bed. Night.

[Uber Deaf One]

PS - a B210 steering box is identical to a 510 steering box, the ratio's are the same. They are a direct replacement, and I believe they are an identical Nissan P/N but the pitman arms may be different.

 

Only way that I know of changing the steering ratio is to use 280zx steering knuckles. Which brings me back to something I've explained a million times... is dangerous. Way too quick, way too uncontrollable, way too hard to turn the wheel in a parking lot, way more strain and effort for driving, way more stress on parts, way not cool for a 510... But I digress.

 

4AM I'm bringing my ass to bed. Night.

 

Whaaaaaaa I could have sworn the B210 steering ratio is 15.0:1 while the 510s are 15.5:1? It's not much but that little bit could help! Have I been wasting my time trying to find a 210 steering box? lol

 

 

Also +1 on the front strut tower braces. I can jack up my 510 from one front corner, and the other corner will come up as well. I also think they look like poo and just clutter up engine bays.

[HRH]

210 steering boxes ARE NOT IDENTICAL to 510s. I have both. The 210 box turns much quicker, due to the smaller front track width. It is a direct bolt on. I have one torn apart at the moment, but before I tore it apart I measured the number of turns lock to lock. Datsun guru confirmed when I first got the 210 box.

 

 

So bottom line, YES, a 210 box is a quicker ratio than a 510 box.

[ggzilla]

B210 -- for USA -- was fitted with the Datsun 610 suspension and steering according to the Datsun Service Bulletin. That's why it is similar to the 510.

[Uber Deaf One]

Soooo if one were to get a 210 steering box, it would have to be a UK or JDM box? I'm so confused now

[HRH]

Go to pull and save and find a rear drive B210 around 1979 or so. That will have the box you need for a quicker ratio. Regular USDM fare. That's how I got mine.

[ggzilla]

Yes, you are confused.

 

Only use a UK or JDM box if your 510 is Right-Hand-Drive.

 

For those that don't know, B210 is 1978-1978. 210 is 1979-1982. They are totally different cars.

 

If you want to replace a Datsun 510 steering box with a Datsun 610 steering box, get the box out of a Datsun 610 or USA Datsun B210.

 

If you want to use the 210 box, now it gets tricky. For North America, there are two different boxes used in the 210. A 15:1 box (Type BR45L) and a 16.4:1 box (Type RB43N).

 

Regarding lock-to-lock it is generally not the box that determines that, it is the stops on the LCAs -- the 210 can turn its wheels farther. And regarding overall ratio the steering knuckles have a huge effect, at least as much effect as the steering gearbox.

[Uber Deaf One]

 

 

For those that don't know, B210 is 1978-1978. 210 is 1979-1982. They are totally different cars.

 

This is what was confusing me. lol

 

So the 610 steering boxes have the same steering ratio as the 510 steering box? I need to find a 210 steering box (not a B210) and then I have to make sure it's the BR45L box?

 

[ggzilla]

Well a lot of 210 boxes are worn out after 30 years. But to identify, look on the underhood ID plate of the 210. The larger box is from HLB310 and PLB310 models.

[HRH]

When I measured mine, I measured it lock to lock out of the vehicle. As in, literally, how many turns of the shaft to reach full travel of the pitman arm. Got mine of a '79 210 or B210, not sure which, rear drive, A motor. I think the easiest way to tell is to measure the travel on your existing box, then go hunting. Remove the box at the wrecking yard and see how many turns it is. Simple.

[docbainey]

K, so heres my setup. front: techno toy tuning t/c rods. Troy Ermish tie rod ends flip flopped. (installed on the under side of the steering knuckle) 4 inch shortened struts. (shortest i could cut them and still fit the strut inserts) tokiko ilumina 5 way strut inserts. ground control coils 225lb spring rate. b210 steering box. (someone told me it has a better ratio) Rear: troy ermish coilovers 225 lb spring rate. poly urethane control arm bushings.

 

car is powered by ka24de with stock oil pan so no front sway bar. oh i almost forgot i am running 13s with 175/50 tires, you know the sumitomo ones.

 

 

1) No front sway bar, really? Bad move. Probably need an 1" up front & 3/4" in back

 

2) 175/50 tires? Did you get those for free? You need at least 205~ 225 rubber on the ground, at least, The shit box came with what? 165's on a 4 1/2 rim?

 

3) Never under estimate the Germans! If you do, history will repeat it self.:o

[HRH]

We're here to do one thing and one thing only. Kill Nazis! - Aldo Raines ;) F the Germans. I will have my scalps!

[DAT510]

We're here to do one thing and one thing only. Kill Nazis! - Aldo Raines ;) F the Germans. I will have my scalps!

 

[docbainey]

Ratsun Rules!

[Boaty]

See, I thought the steering boxes were identical in terms of ratio, but the pitman arm was a different length which is why you must use the pitman off a 510?

 

Speaking of steering boxes, I'm going to have to go track down my spare box, since mine is worn out... be damned if I know where it's at though. :/

[Fillmoe_Coleman]

just to clear things up my diff was not welded at the time of the calamity. but thanks for all the knowledgeable replys.

[datsunpilot]

Ok so I am going to bring this back from the dead as I have been doing my own research on this topic and should have just come here and find it all in one feel swoop - you guys know so much its scary lol

So my 510 has 430k miles on it - maybe the stock steering box, its loose to say the least, feels like driving a second gen cummins.

I want to replace/upgrade it so I am looking for a 210 or 610 box I suppose. From what was said earlier will I gain any more actually steering angle on the tires when they are turned on either of there boxes or is that as I suspect from the suspension geometry itself.