Need someone to replace head gasket

[old521]

Thanks for asking.  Just got up.  Not feeling good.  I just looked on the internet and there is one less than a mile away.  I filled out a form asking how much.  Will see what they say via email.  It is family owned and been there over 30 years.  Actually think that is the only one around...weird...there used to be several places, but guess things have changed over the years.  Found two Midas Muffler Shops in Portland, but they are not near me.  Don't mufflers go out on cars anymore?  Sounds like it to me! 

 

I have seen on TV where guys go into parking lots and car lots and cut them off and walk away and resell them.  Can't be that difficult to replace.  The weather is supposed to be half decent tomorrow.  Was thinking of driving up or jacking up our Sherman Tank and looking.  I see they are really cheap on Amazon.  Have to pull a Datsun out and move the Ford over to put it up in the air, but I do have an electric saw that would probably cut it in a few seconds.  As long as the danged car does not fall down on me!  I have never once paid anyone to replace a muffler.  May be worth it to do it on that thing though!

 

That thing is full of emission control stuff.  Mileage is lousy.  That is the main reason I never have bought anything newer than the early 70's.  Have to take it to DEQ every two years.  Inherited that thing from my mother.  It is a 'bear' even to change a certain plug in it.  When I worked at a dealership many years ago, some engines I would have to raise a little bit to get some plugs out!  Those were the days!  Maybe they have special tools now.  I don't know.  What is nice about it is that if someone hits you in traffic,  you are the one that walks away! 

[pidge]

There’s gotta be a hot rod club or a Datsun club near by. Have you searched for that? I’m sure talking to some one like that; just as you’ve done here may get you a lead. I understand your on a budget. Try a local car club. They may just know a guy, who knows a guy. 
-Pidge

[Charlie69]

Put a jack stand under it so i can't fall on you.

[old521]

Hi!

 

Yeah, I always do that. 

 

In regards to the 521, I did start it up yesterday and let it run for over 90 minutes.  No leaks.  No water in oil.  Water level was same in radiator when I turned it off.  Just the hot air coming out near the rear of the head, where it contacts the block.  Temperature was stable too.  Ran good.  The timing chain is making a lot of noise, but think that is because I screwed up the tensioners when trying to figure out what was going on last year.  I think it is safe to sit longer.  Nothing indicated by exhaust.  Oil is same as when I changed it last year.  It looks new and at proper level. 

 

House next door is going to be vacant in a couple weeks.  Maybe I can get permission to put it over there and have someone work on it over there.  If the landlord gives me permission.

 

I have always had other obvious indications when head gaskets go out in past years.  This is the first time I have encountered this type situation.  Just never had this wonderful experience before.  At the beginning, I thought perhaps it was a leak in the exhaust manifold.  Wrong. 

 

I presume it is the gasket.  The air sure is hot when it 'comes out.  I did put some stuff in the water last year, and yesterday, with a flashlight, I discovered there was a little trail of some colored liquid that did come out that hole probably last year.  But not a drop of anything yesterday.  Just the hot air.  Not one bit of indication from exhaust; even when starting it up.  And it starts without any problem.  Is this normal for these things? 

[datzenmike]

23 minutes ago, old521 said:

 

 Just the hot air coming out near the rear of the head, where it contacts the block. 

 

Spark plug side? or manifold side?

[old521]

Spark plug side..  Where the heater hose (I think that is what that hose is) comes around and goes to the front of the engine.  There is a small trail of liquid that did come off the place where the block and the head meet.  Dribbled s short distance from that location straight down, along the side of the block, then quit.  Came out where the hot air is coming from.  That liquid did not come from that hose.  And the hot air is definitely coming from where I just stated.  I have gone out there many times the past year and fired it up and put my finger down there and checked.  And this time took a flashlight with me.  Got me!  I guess it could happen.  Sure is, in this case for some reason.  I don't understand why it does not hesitate to start and when it does, it runs good.  Took me a long time to accept it.  Never seen that before that I can ever recall.  Usually I will see a bunch of water or mixture of water and oil.  Or something like that.  Hate to think it might be a cracked block.  I don't feel like monkeying around with it anymore.  I don't know anything about these particular engines.  One of the easiest signs is white vapor.  But ..nothing from the exhaust.  I kept thinking I was wrong...but a guy at one shop was the one that pointed it out to me.  I could hardly believe it. I looked on the internet tonight and I can find nothing like this related to a blown gasket or head or block.  The air coming out is so hot i can not keep my finger there. 

[datzenmike]

Sounds like the gasket is blown out to the side. I had the same thing once between 3 and 4 but it also spit coolant. Simple enough fix.

[KDW_80-720]

There's a few places up in Vancouver.  Hazel Dell Muffler, Punks Muffler, Get Bent Custom Exhaust is in Clackamas, er GBE Mandrel Bending now.

[old521]

52 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Sounds like the gasket is blown out to the side. I had the same thing once between 3 and 4 but it also spit coolant. Simple enough fix.

 

Glad you said that!  This one is close to 4.  I think I actually added some gasket sealer one time, and that may have helped seal it to some extent.  ....no!   It never did lose any water.....Just amazes me to see that hot air blowing out!  First time for me!  Been a year or more.  But I created another problem with that timing chain too.  Should never have touched the thing.  That is what happens when I screw around with something I am not familiar with!

 

My real problem now is finding a spot for it to be worked on, in case it is more than what appears to be the problem.  One nice gentleman did offer to work on it.  But I cannot take the chance of blocking my drive from other vehicles getting out.   Appears to me that it can sit longer without problems with the moisture getting into it.  It did amaze me that it ran for over 90 minutes the other day without showing any other 'regular' symptoms. 

 

That timing chain situation.  I don't want to even touch that stuff either, from what experiences I read that others have gone through! 

 

Thanks for telling us your experience.  I certainly appreciate it.  Think I will fire up the Sherman Tank and take it over to a place nearby and see what they say about it.  Cops are probably catching up on sleep from the nightly battle and not able to give out tickets for a loud cannon going down the road! 

[wayno]

I hate to tell you this but you need to quit starting and running that engine and this is why, this is my opinion though, when the head gasket blew out the side it created a hole where there is not supposed to be a hole, now when you have a piston going up and down air is being sucked in and blown out that hole, but as time goes by that hole is going to get bigger and bigger, the block metal will likely survive as that metal is very hard, but aluminum can wear away causing the need to machine the head, the more is is run the more metal that can be worn away from running the engine.

I am also wondering why you keep talking about the timing chain making a lot of noise, if it was a U20 Roadster engine I would understand, but an L block is not known for timing chain noise except for when someone removes the head and loses the timing chain wedge tensioner without knowing it and somehow gets the cam gear back onto the cam and then starts it, that can likely make a lot of noise and people have had this happen, also some folks have removed the thermostat housing and then used the wrong length bolt when they installed the thermostat housing back onto the engine/head, what happens is that wrong bolt(too long) shoves the chain guide into the chain which can make a lot of noise also, and it bends the chain guide making it harder to fix without removing the front cover.

My offer to come look at it still stands, it might not be that big of a deal, but I would need to look at it.

[datzenmike]

Indeed. Seen a Z24 that had been run maybe for months and there was a groove worn between cylinders. Like this...

 

 

I doubt you're there yet and it can be welded up but better not in the first case.

[old521]

Wayno came over yesterday and looked at it.  Going to come back on Wednesday.  You guys sure know a lot about these things.  More than one would even find in a good manual.  My opinion.  I am preparing it for him to remove the head.  Hopefully there is no damage.  If the head even needs work to be done on it I am in trouble until someday I can get another one.  And I guess this one is rare to begin with.  Hopefully it is ok and the vehicle does not have to sit in the weather for months without a head on it. I don't know how I would be able to keep moisture out of it.  Oh..he said he did not notice the timing chain making a lot of noise, so guess I was wrong.  Sure a lot of noise coming from that thing, it seems to me.  Might just be where the air is blowing out.  I guess it may only be running on three cylinders.  (that makes sense) That is another thing that I was wondering about.  To me, it seems to be running on all.  But that engine has always ran great.  I will pull the plug and check when it quits raining today.  Never knew a four cylinder engine could sound so good running on only three cylinders!!   But maybe my hearing is not as good as it used to be. 

 

Thanks guys. 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It could be running on all four cylinders if the coolant has all leaked out and is not fouling the plugs.

[wayno]

I went over there yesterday Matt, it has a blown head gasket but somehow the water jacket is not involved which totally amazes me, I put my hand near that hole and it is hot coming out, hot enough to possibly cause a fire if ran down the freeway for a while and it only ran for maybe 10 seconds, it sounds like one of the plugs has been removed and the engine is running.

I also checked the coolant level as I mentioned to him that he may want to save the coolant and reuse it to save money, it was right at the top and clean.

I looked at a head gasket I have and am baffled about how it could have a hole there and not involve the water jacket or oil, it appears to be right at that rear passenger side head bolt exiting 45 degrees out the side/back, I didn't do anything except loosen most the intake/exhaust manifold nuts/bolts I could get to with a 12mm wrench and they were all fairly easy to move, I just don't see any issues on that front, I believe they will all come loose like normal.

I had him shut the engine down after maybe 10 seconds(maybe longer), I didn't hear any timing chain noise but it didn't run long, all I could hear is that air coming out from between the head and the block, maybe I don't hear as good as I used to, I will know more Wednesday.

I hope to not have to remove the front cover, I don't have the gaskets for that in my inventory, I do have 3 different head gaskets and 2 intake/exhaust gaskets but one looks to be a early gasket for the 210 head(very small intake holes), I have all these gaskets because I buy them for my LZ23 builds except I cannot use the stock L20b head gasket or the early intake/exhaust gaskets, so these are throw away gaskets, except I don't throw anything away.

I didn't see the engine block L20b designation as I took his word that it was an L20b(I forgot to look to see if the cover had one or 2 bolts), but I did look at the head casting, it appears to be a W53 head likely from one of the used Japanese engines imported way back when, the whole thing may be one of them used import engines, the emissions stuff appears to have been deleted by the owner or owner before him, but I was there to assess a head gasket replacement, I likely could have removed the head then but had the wrong clothes on and i forgot the timing chain wedge also.

I hope the head is good and doesn't need machined.

[d.p]

Fucking A Wayno!!! Awesome that you’re helping him out.  Best of luck.  

[datzenmike]

 

 

 

There are two ways out other than between the two coolant passages and that is through or near the two head bolts.

 

This is my W58 when it blew out the plug side near #4. Happened near home and when I got the hood up it was spitting water like a pressure washer. No evident cause, put new gasket on and all was well after.

 

Warps would tend to be more in the middle of the head like between any two cylinders. I have a U67 and while it's not warped in the true sense of being bent it did have a high spot between 2 and 3. Like the metal there was puckered. Cam could be spun by hand.

[old521]

This is not related, but I don't know whether to laugh or cry about this.  I filled out that online form to a place nearby that is supposedly a 'custom shop' for exhaust systems. Been a few days now.  Not a single reply.  I will call them on the phone when I get in the mood and see.  I hope to God they don't tell me that 1977 is too old for them to work on!  Getting tired of being treated like crap by places because I own older vehicles.  But maybe their computer broke down and they did not read my message?!  😀🤤  Most classics around here are very seldom seen in garages from what I have noticed.  But most garages do not have fences to help keep them safe either.  That thing could be 'fixed up' and look real nice if a person wanted to spend the money, but it is difficult to use as a daily driver because of the lousy gas mileage to pass DEQ.  I worked at one garage many years ago that was across the street from a DEQ station.  People would bring their vehicles over, and I would adjust them to pass.  Then they would come back and have me re-adjust them to run! 😀  There are not many classics in this town that I know of.  More 'antiques' and those are primarily worked on by the owners from what I have noticed.  Have an old...very old GM parts place nearby, so old Chevy's are not that uncommon around here.  Can get original parts from the warehouse they have a few blocks from here.  Place across the river too.  The place nearby suffered a lot when 'online' purchasing became the 'norm'.  Rockauto started advertising on TV too.  That did not help.  I know the owners of the place over here.  Like Wayno said, things certainly have changed.  I had a couple old Mercury's I got rid of.  They could have been fixed up real nice.  But all the guys wanted were the engines.  And scrapped the bodies.  Kinda upset me.  You do not see 63 Mercury's around here.  383/318 engines.  Those are not even 'old' to my way of thinking.  See the Impala's of that age around here all the time. 

 

Looks like the problem with the gasket is unusual alright.  I said the engine is a L20.  That is how little I know about these things.  Maybe it is not.  Wayno does not seem to be sure.  I thought there were only a L20 and whatever that other popular one is, and I think it looks quite different if I remember correctly.  But you guys know ten times more than the books I have read concerning these things.  I bought this engine at some place that sold used imported engines from Japan.  Think Japan allowed only a certain amount of mileage on engines, then they were taken off their roads.  And sent here to be re-sold.  Many years ago, when I bought this one.  (30 years ago?)  To me it looks like the original L16, and the L16 that is in the 72.  That is why I originally said it is a L20.  Wayno said something about bolts.  Not sure what he was referring to.  This one has six bolts in the valve cover. 

 

Guess some questions will be answered tomorrow when he gets the head off.  Of all the luck, I had to have a problem that is a rare one I guess....in reference to no regular signs of a bad head gasket!   And it does not squirt out any water.  ...we will 'see' tomorrow.   

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

7 minutes ago, old521 said:

I had a couple old Mercury's I got rid of.  They could have been fixed up real nice.  But all the guys wanted were the engines.  And scrapped the bodies.  Kinda upset me.  You do not see 63 Mercury's around here.  383/318 engines.  Those are not even 'old' to my way of thinking.  See the Impala's of that age around here all the time. 

 

 

Guess some questions will be answered tomorrow when he gets the head off.  Of all the luck, I had to have a problem that is a rare one I guess....in reference to no regular signs of a bad head gasket!   And it does not squirt out any water.  ...we will 'see' tomorrow.   

You're way of thinking is similar to mine. In my opinion, there are two categories of cars/ trucks - antique and modern. Modern vehicles are user friendly with enough power to keep up on modern highways and have good enough brakes to do a panic stop. You don't have to think ahead when driving a modern car. Antique cars require too much thought to be able to drive daily.

 

You are lucky to have Wayno helping you. He knows a ton about these engines and trucks and is great at fixing old junk. You found the perfect guy to help you.

[DanielC]

This is a L-20-B engine.  Notice the two bolt heads just to the left of the distributor pedestal.  The L-20-b block is taller, to accommodate a longer stroke.  L-16, and L-18 engines only have one bolt in this area, and on the other side of the cam chain cover.

[datzenmike]

I think Daniel is politely saying to call it an L-20-B. The L20 is a 2 liter six cylinder that predates the 2 liter 4 cylinder. This then had to be called the L20B

[old521]

I just took this picture a few minutes ago.  Looks the same as the original L16 is in the 72.   It was sold as a 1995 cc or whatever the number is.  Think that is what was considered as the 2 liter engine.  Went back out and cleaned off the grease of many years...it is only one bolt on both engines where you point out.  This is not what I thought it was?  Now I am more confused than ever.  I remember I had a problem with the distributor for some reason.  Not sure if it was when I put this engine in or at a later date.  This one now has a different one than in my 72, which is a L16 engine.  One of the distributor caps is larger than the other.  Did they use the same distributor originally?  Have no idea why I ended up with the present distributor in this engine.  Too many years back to remember.  But there is definitely only one bolt where you suggest there should be two, if I am interpreting things correctly.  This is getting more complicated by the minute for me. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by old521

[wayno]

 

Shops everywhere anymore are set up to work on vehicles with computers, if a computer doesn't tell them what to fix they are lost, if you do find someone to work on them it will likely be some old timer that was at the end of the distributor with points era, most of them guys have retired like my dad did, they just got tired of working on them, and most of them worked on American Sheet Metal anyway.

I know an exhaust shop that works on classics(mostly what I see in there when I stop to make an appointment), but he like most is scheduled out 2 or 3 weeks or more, I have to make an appointment to get in, but he is not cheap, none of them are cheap.

I guess I should have tried to tear it down Saturday but I didn't know what I was getting into, I had no idea if I could even access the engine, and I am positive I would have forgot tools anyway, now I have a good idea what needs to be done and what I need to do it, if the head is good we will change out the head gasket and it will run before I leave, if the timing chain/gear is toast/bad then that will need to be sourced, I don't think I have a good used set, but I will look anyway just in case I have parts I have forgotten about, Daniel told me he has the front cover gaskets for an L20b if we need them, if it wasn't for the oil pump/front pulley I would just pull the front cover off but I don't see so good anymore and have trouble seeing in dark places like under vehicles, and getting that front pulley off can be a pain in the ass, that reminds me to bring my trouble light with a very bright LED bulb, I need to make a list.

I do not have an extra used head that could be used in case this one is bad, the only one I have left is a W53 open chamber head and that one needs work, I bought it because after going thru all the work to get it off the engine I was leaving with a head(I thought it would be closed chamber), and at the time I thought it was an extremely rare head and I could maybe use it some day, well if I ever put that LZ20 I built into a vehicle that has a 10.8 to 1 compression ratio, this W53 open chamber head will likely reduce the compression ratio to a manageable ratio, but again it needs work, some of the studs broke off removing that head also, my plan was to open up the intake ports and install hardened seats with 280Z valves.

[datzenmike]

Air pump not connected, no free rides, take it off and throw away.

 

Thermostat housing is from later L20B

 

Has pre '74 non EGR coolant flow intake but not connected to the by pass hose. Exhaust also looks L16

 

Distributor look larger like from later L20B.

 

Could be an L20B with U67 head using L16 manifolds. This explains everything, air pump, thermostat housing, no by pass hose to the intake and the larger distributor.

 

 

 

Look behind the dip stick handle for engine size.  May need wire brush.

 

Head ID is between #1 and #2 spark plugs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

GM owner right? Or worked on them in the past??

 

[wayno]

I already said it is a W53 head, I seen this with my own eyes although I suppose it could be a W58 head, but it looked like a W53 to me, my eyes are not what they used to be.

It also appears to be using the temp gauge sensor hole for the bypass, but right now all I care about is changing out the head gasket.

We do not need to get into anything else not concerning a head gasket change Mike, so what, it is holding coolant which amazes me considering where the head gasket appears to have failed, I am really hoping it is just a head gasket as it is quite a lot of air coming out such a small hole(should be a small hole), it would not surprise me if that head bolt back there is loose, that is what happened to me when the head bolt threads got stripped out of my first LZ23 build near the thermostat, it was pumping exhaust into the water jacket when I revved it, I had to have the block drilled and a coil put into that hole, I used ARP head studs after that, never had that issue again.

I am making a list.

[old521]

Just got back in.  Again.  Yeah, a head is a head.  The rest is running ok.  It does say w53 on it.  The other number behind the dip stick is more like serial number or something...might be 87611 or 87811.  Difficult to read.  I think it best I not get this conversing away from the subject of the head gasket removal.  It does say w53 Wayno.  You are correct.