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KamakSun

Is Go Kart steering possible

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Hello yet again,

 

As many of you know, this is my first 510 and boy is it a project car. I replaced all of the steering components and ball joints. Is it possible to get go kart like steering especially off center or are we limited due to the steering box. I have been getting a lot seat time in and learned that these cars don't stop well, go well or do anything particularly amazing except put a smile on my face. In fact the smile factor on this car is better than my daily 600hp ctsv and my street legal track e36 m3.

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You're comparing a 50 year old car to a new car. 

 

Best bet is a MR2 rack with this crossmember: http://www.jbcoachwerks.com/

 

Someone on here could tell you how it's changes the ride of the car.. but it's the most modern upgrade you're going to find.

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Do you mean quicker steering, I.E. less turns lock to lock?

 

If so, install a steering quickener.

I put a 2:1 into my Cressida, and took it from 3 turns lock to lock, to 1.5 turns lock to lock.

It's a Howe 'Stealth'.

Did this just because I've raced karts since about '68, some nearly as fast as my car (250 shifters), and like to catch the rear end snapping out. 

Couldn't do it with 3 turns, but 1.5 works quite well.

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If everything is new in the steering system then I would assume that the steering box is worn out and would require replacement.

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Is the 510 steering box like a 521.... I know the 521 has an adjuster... made a huge difference in my steering wheel once I adjusted it.

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How far do you want to take it? Replacing everything with new and adjusting the gear box (if applicable) would get it to handle like new and reduce that slop.

 

Changing caster will change how it reacts to your steering input.

 

Or hit up Icehouse for a complete new sub frame and bolt in a well engineered rack and pinion design.

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Did you adjust the box?  Make sure to do it with both wheels off the ground so you can see if it binds off center.  Most of the wear is on center, and if you take out too much slop on center it will bind lock to lock.

 

There have been some posts about places willing/able to rebuild boxes, but I think it was $300 or so to do it.

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I think the bearings are NLA. The B-210 box has them and most of the parts will swap. The HL510 (A10) box will swap.

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Something to remove the slop once the steering wheel is centered

I moved the column\steering wheel 1 groove to create a new center.

Still not tight, but within tolerance. Will be until i find a "new" box.

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There are some places that rebuild.. There is one in Auburn washington I think.

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I think the bearings are NLA. The B-210 box has them and most of the parts will swap.

 

 

Also, the 210 box is quicker....

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It's a lever. Shortening the arm moves it with less input, but much more effort is needed. You can't make it like a go cart because it doesn't weigh the same as a go cart. If this is all you have to do to make the steering quicker we wouldn't need power steering. I have a smaller diameter zx  steering wheel on my 710 and the steering is just noticeably harder. Parking is more work.

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Gokarts and formula open wheel type racecars owe much of their immediate steering feel to light weight and roll centers at the same point as their center of gravities. They do not lean before turning. I doubt you can achieve either with a 510, I've certainly tried but only gotten close. But then neither of those have our wonderful lift throttle oversteer to enjoy. Sometimes it all equalizes out....

Dennis

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Go-karts also have steering geometry to lift the inside rear wheel, but I don't think that's quite what he meant :P

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Karts* have geometry to put higher pressure on the inside front wheel.

It's called camber & castor.

Sure, it may lift the inside rear wheel, when over half the weight is removed (the driver),

but it never happens with the driver seated in the kart, or ever on track.

In fact, I see a lot of karts, when cornering really hard, will lift the inside front wheel, just like a sprint car, due to designed-in chassis flex.

This 'flex' is due to the governing bodies outlawing any type of real suspension. a long time ago.

 

*("Go Kart" was a name brand back in the late '50s, to early '60s) 

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 Parking is more work.

 

Helps build upper body strength....:)

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I just use Armstrong ® steering

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280zx steering arms are shorter balljoint center to center, but the steering arm to strut mounting bolts and ball joint hole are offset differently, so you would need to adjust the camber accordingly, which you should be anyway.

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Karts* have geometry to put higher pressure on the inside front wheel.

It's called camber & castor.

Sure, it may lift the inside rear wheel, when over half the weight is removed (the driver),

but it never happens with the driver seated in the kart, or ever on track.

In fact, I see a lot of karts, when cornering really hard, will lift the inside front wheel, just like a sprint car, due to designed-in chassis flex.

This 'flex' is due to the governing bodies outlawing any type of real suspension. a long time ago.

 

*("Go Kart" was a name brand back in the late '50s, to early '60s)

Lifting, or unloading, the inside rear wheel is essential to cornering with a solid axle, unless you want to push understeer...
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I did have done a lot of work on the front suspension of my car.  It is primarily an autocross/hillclimb car so quick and precise steering is paramount.  Over last winter I did a complete re-hash of the steering system that included a quick steer rack.  The rack is 2.2 turns lock to lock.  Not only is it quicker than the old steering box, but having completely new steering gear has made an immense difference.  There is no more dead feeling on center.  When I turn the wheel, the car RESPONDS!  Here is a video of a recent as an example of how responsive the steering is.

 

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Duke,

 

Please let us know how you accomplished this!

 

Thank you,

 

Kamaksun

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You want quicker response... get a gym membership.

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Duke,

 

Please let us know how you accomplished this!

 

Thank you,

 

Kamaksun

 

Here is the link to the steering mods I have done.  Not exactly a bolt in affair.  A bunch of the pictures on my build thread have been lost due to the lame photobucket bs, but there is some info  on there about other suspension stuff I have done.

 

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/4137-dukes-72-510-carbed-ka-autocrosshillclimb-car/?p=1491062

 

You want quicker response... get a gym membership.

 

Haha, seriously.  Rowing a steering wheel back and forth isn't the easiest thing.  The steering in my car is pretty heavy (wide, sticky tires, 6+ degrees of caster, quick steering) and is a total bear at low speeds.  Armstrong power steering is a must.

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Part of your problem is that you won't ever achieve better steering feel without giving something up in return. For instance, you can achieve optimal feel and directness of input by replacing your tie rod ends with spherical bearing rod ends (solid end links is what some people call them I think), but in return you feel EVERY bump, nook, cranny, and rock in the road. 

 

Rack and pinion set ups are similar.  While you're going to get a better steering feel, the amount of fab work and headache that goes along with it is sizable. Even with the crossmember kit mentioned earlier you'll run into problems, as it will limit you to front sump engine configurations.

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