Respect

[Rustina 510]

Nah I understand what he was saying, and I know that not all people of any nation think the same way.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be mean here, I just don't like those 2 phrases one bit.

 

Your civil rights in America are constantly violated by both fellow citizens and law enforcement.

 

But I was still raised that showing honest respect, not just being or acting respectful temporarily to any piblic servant " cops, firemen, coast gaured, mail workers public transit and us military" is the right way to treat my USA or state employees that provide public service " often dangerous " for me and the rest of my comunity at the expense of my tax dollars being put to work for the greater good.

[Rustina 510]

and hey, at least you have a nataional health care if you where to get hurt, and not have to pay out of pocket like over 47% of americans have to

[datzenmike]

No court? I don't like the sound of that one bit. Sounds like nazi Germany to me.

 

And i never like being automatically guilty ever. I didn't know Canadians had no belief in democracy or due process

 

Dam mike, the law, and law enforcement isn't ment to be feared, it's ment to understood and respected.

 

Fear is by no means a answer for law and the police.

 

If you fear the cops you won't be in a good state o mind should you need help in a emergency.

 

 

I'm half serious, a sort of "What If?" The point is that if if there was recourse to the law courts this would all grind to a halt. In simple terms if you speed you are guilty so what good would going to court serve? If you are stopped for DUI and blow over a certain limit (hell in Canada if you refuse to blow, you are automatically guilty) you are pulled off the road and your car towed so why not for speeding too??? Pretty soon everyone would get the message and slow down. You obey the speed limit just like not drinking and driving you have nothing to fear from the police. Just say to yourself that it's for the greater good. Everyone helps everyone else get where they are going safely.

 

 

 

It's wrong to assume that all Canadians have these beliefs just because Mike does :P

 

 

:lol: I do believe that people have little respect for others (even when not driving) and this post isn't about what I believe. It's just some food for thought. So is 'Tough Love", sometimes you have to get a bit rowdy and kick ass to get anything done.

[HRH]

While I am all for respect and courtesy on the roads, for one, kms are bullshit. I mean really? It's 5-10 mph over the limit in Washington for the most part, and that has to be at least 800 kms worth of error, right? :P

 

While I do speed frequently (hit 110 on the way to work this morning) I think an easier way to fix the problems is with better driver's education. And though I've been bad recently, it's only because I've been driving the NX and it goes faster and gets better mileage than the truck.

 

Hell, the truck I don't drive faster than 65 simply due to mileage. Funny enough though I was thinking on this exact tangent this morning when realizing how much of a pain in the ass it was at 70 mph (legal limit) because people wouldn't get out of the way, were in the correct lane, couldn't gauge speed, etc.

 

When I drive 65 in the truck, it doesn't matter. I'm always in the right lane, and everyone passes me, and I could care less. Makes driving a whole lot easier. Rather interesting, huh?

[Jassifrass]

 

:lol: I do believe that people have little respect for others (even when not driving) and this post isn't about what I believe. It's just some food for thought. So is 'Tough Love", sometimes you have to get a bit rowdy and kick ass to get anything done.

 

 

I agree. Me and Kelly were talking about this the other day actually. I think cops should just disguise themselves better. As soon as someone see's a cop their driving changes. If you just never knew which cars were cops you'd be a lot less likely to risk it.

[datzenmike]

Good point.

[Skib]

trollolol

 

[bananahamuck]

 

 

 

 

Coincidence .................I DON`T THINK SO

[Rustina 510]

I agree. Me and Kelly were talking about this the other day actually. I think cops should just disguise themselves better. As soon as someone see's a cop their driving changes. If you just never knew which cars were cops you'd be a lot less likely to risk it.

 

I believe that is pretty close to entrapment.

 

I totally get what your saying mike and I'm not saying it's entirely a bad idea, but once that gate of autoguilty is openned I'm worried as to where it would end here in the states.

 

I'm no speedy driver, I havnt been in a accident or got a ticket in years, I'm also not the type to freak out when some asshole cuts me off or is riding my ass.

 

But others don't show common courtesy on the road and it does seem to be getting worse.

 

All those shitty honda's are ruining my commute :lol:

[RedBanner]

i will not let anyone merge in front of me untill after the solid white line ends, solid white mean dont cross, i wont let anyone one merge after the dotted line ends thats the shoulder if your driving there then fuck you. i know im not assighned to inforce laws ...... but im not playing the cruise up the side of the road as far as i can and cut the asshole in the b210 off game, ever¡!

and dont get me started on those of you that stop a a merge sighn, yeild= go when safe merge = get over when safe, yeah i get upset while driving but i dont flip out on people, i aknoledge road kindness as well as road rage. oh and if anyone know he lady that reads her paper on her drive home from portland every day please couse her bodily harm for me, once as a shock but everyday come on.

[MicroMachinery]

I have a number of friends in different overseas countries in the world, and in a handful, drivers licenses aren't handed out like cheap door prizes at a timeshare showing.

My brother lived in Germany for a year, and according to him, it costs THOUSANDS of dollars to even begin the licensing process. There are also a series of qualifications in sort of a ladder system that you achieve and are awarded, and finally, as being deemed worthy of the grand responsibility of operation a dangerous piece of machinery, you are granted a driver's license.

I think that this kind of system would take us a long way here in the states, on so many levels. It would boost local economies by lowering outsourcing and commuting, increase peoples' physical activity(lower laziness) as well as GREATLY decrease the percentage of accidents/injuries/fatalities due to irresponsible/careless driving habits. Those are only a few of MANY, and if your imagination can take you further than your living room where your television set resides, you would begin to generate all sorts of perks to this. "Yeah, but I'm AMERICAN, and I have rights! If I want to drive, it's MY RIGHT". Well, like I was told in middle school after being kicked off the school bus, "It's a privilege, NOT a right". I think driving should be all the more a privilege, and not a right.

Many places in the world, you are allowed to drink alcohol legally before you are legally allowed to operate an automobile. I think that this is also a fine practice, rather than the twisted, senseless other way around that we have here. If you drive for 5 years(from 16 to 21), and somehow abstain from consumption of alcohol, chances are that when you do turn the ripe age of 21, that youthful, cocky attitude will rise up one night during a time of impaired judgment. "I've been driving for years, I know what I'm doing. I've only had a few drinks, I can handle it.." yeah.. well, maybe so.. but maybe not. Switch it around for sake of argument. So-and-so has been allowed to drink for 5 years, and FINALLY has scrimped and saved for YEARS to obtain a highly coveted, sought after driver's license. They are also well aware of their limitations in drinking, as well as the repercussions of 'chancing it'. "I probably COULD make it home fine, but.. I've worked so hard to be able to FINALLY drive, that it's not worth screwing it up; I'm getting a ride home/calling a cab/etc..".

See, when it's a bigger risk, and there's a greater price to pay, people value and respect it more. Here in the States, like I said, licenses get thrown around and handed out like candy at a parade, simply because it's become a right, instead of a privilege. There's no value put on it, so likewise, no respect for it or incentive to protect it. "So what if I get a DUI? They throw me in the drunk tank, and I lose my license for a month. Boo hoo.. First one's a slap on the wrist.". That's a shitty way to say, "I know what I'm doing is wrong, and I am greatly endangering myself and others, but it's ok, because the risk isn't great enough to not."

 

A rant of my own. Just wanted to put it in writing; I could go on and on about this sort of thing.. but.. no.

[Burabuda]

No this isn't a bitch about not getting enough. I was reading in the paper where people think that drivers have no respect for other drivers, which is no surprise, but they say it's noticeably worse in the last few years.

i give respect where respect is due

 

f*ckface drivers in black tahoes? no f*ck'n way

[pharouh]

Micromachinery said it before I got a chance.

Driver education in this country is a joke. All the tests are very simple common sense rules. I've known several drivers who couldn't back up out of a parking space! 4 way stop? forget it!

It's really sad to see what's happening to driver education,and education in general.

I would love to see the U.S. adopt the European style of drivers ed. Maybe even a mental evaluation for stability.That would keep a lot of people off the roads. :D

Mike made some good points,but they won't happen.

Indiana finally passed a law where you can't text and drive. Why would you want to n the first place?

OK rant over. My .02

[datzenmike]

I was thinking about social engineering and how making a correction in one thing has a ripple effect in others. Drinking and driving laws have forced people to be more responsible but it's more than just that. I find people now look down on D&D more than the cops for enforcement of the laws against it. They aren't the bad guys here, we are. People can change, it's just not easy and it takes time and effort. Perhaps it's out culture that promotes lack of respect towards others, maybe video games or movies or TV, I don't know. But if drinkers can stay off the roads weather from fear of the law or just common sense obeying of the law then we can damn well slow down and show respect too. If we did maybe we could be better when not driving.

[Rustina 510]

Yeah in some countries your first DUI offense, your liscense is revoked for life.

 

I think that sounds perfect.

[wildmaninid]

I agree. Me and Kelly were talking about this the other day actually. I think cops should just disguise themselves better. As soon as someone see's a cop their driving changes. If you just never knew which cars were cops you'd be a lot less likely to risk it.

Captain O'Hagen: Foster, how many tickets did you write last week?

Foster: Umm let me check my records.......

Cap: TWO!

Foster: I can't make em speed cap'

Cap:Try hiding........

Ramathorn: and grow a goddamn moustache would ya?

 

Cops should be more like super troopers bwahahhahhaahha

[Trophy24]

I understand the frustration.

 

Too tight on the speed over posted limit. Most cars are not that accurate on the speedo. I get complaints at work for this on a regular basis. "The speed limit trailer in my neighborhood said I was doing 30 when my speedo read..." When you look at the data stream for the vehicle, it is spot on when the gauge is off. Pretty common for the luxury imports I work on every day.

 

How accurate do you guys think our speedometers are with all the changes in tire size etc. that we do?

[merlin]

I am a Professional Driver, the world is my Closed Course.

:fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:

[I'm BLUE]

:blink: :lol:

[Hardwyre]

Cops need to make LESS money from traffic laws, not more. Considering there is absolutely zero mechanism in place that forces the cop to provide HARD PROOF of your "speeding violation" other than their own word, most traffic laws can kiss my ass. The problem isn't with the typical driver; most drivers are at least fairly considerate, rational, and capable. The problem is with people who don't, won't, or can't drive safe.

 

17 year old Bobby likes to ride ass less than a car length away from the guy in front of him because dude won't move over. Bobby needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

32 year old Kelly with the asshole kids and shitty marriage loses her shit in traffic every time someone wants to make a lane change. Kelly needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

87 year old Etna with two strokes, Alzheimer's, and Glaucoma under her belt is doing 35 on the free way because she thinks she's driving to church. Etna needs to have someone take her car away.

 

Speed limits do not save lives. Breaking speed limits do not destroy lives. Whether or not you're a safe driver is what determines the ultimate outcome. Speed limits, with a few exceptions, are nothing more than a mechanism to generate more revenue for bloated bureaucracies by taxing drivers without actually having to call it a tax. This is the exact reason that Oregon keeps so many of their freeways 55. Not because it is safer, but because it allows them to rape drivers. Freeway studies have found very little correlation between decreases in speed limits and traffic fatalities.

 

Montana proved for years that speed limits provide little benefit; however, safe driving does. Most people will drive what they feel is a safe speed, that's why most people drive 70-80 through Oregon, because, so long as conditions allow, it is a reasonable speed. Writing someone a $100 ticket and impounding their vehicle because they went one mile an hour over some arbitrary, politically-motivated number is absurd and ridiculous AT BEST; especially with the bias cops have to fib a ticket.

 

And even honest cops get wrapped up in the bullshit because not all equipment is accurate. Police lasers, being fairly cheap tech, have poor focal spread at a 1000 feet. Their lasers can have a beam wash of over ten feet wide; so if you're doing the speed limit, but someone in another lane isn't, but the cop is "aiming" at you through his view finder, he thinks you're speeding. What is further bullshit, is that a lot of states have given lasers judicial precedence, making the laser's "findings" unquestionable.

 

The issue with respect, or lack their of, is one of consequence. There is no consequence socially for being an asshole; and a lot of times there is a good amount of benefit. If people, as they were growing up, saw bullies getting the shit kicked out of them, there'd be a lesson learned that society will not accept people being bullies or assholes. We've also lost community. Growing up if you did something wrong, the whole neighborhood could be your parent. Now everyone is an island and they don't give a shit about those around them. This is all related to our disposable culture mentality.

 

Cops used to be respected because they were respectable. And many still are; but as each generation has gotten more and more isolated from the sense of community, the children are growing up into adults with a sense of "fuck everyone other than me". The bullies in school get on police forces so they can keep bullying people because it makes them feel empowered. So why would you want to give some prick with a badge the chance to impound someone's car over a bullshit, pointless regulation?

 

You want to get respect back in to drivers? Start making EVERYONE who wants to drive take an automotive shop class. Shit, make it part of drivers' education. If rich Sandra doesn't want to get her nails dirty, then she can ride the bus for the rest of her life.

 

Further more, do licensing on a horsepower gradient. And everyone in their first year of driving can't drive anything with more than 100 horsepower regardless. I hate driving past SkyView and MountainView up here in Vancouver and seeing the student parking lot full of new Beemers and Lexuses every year.

 

Lets also figure out a way, as part of drivers' education, to make people experience what it is like to be in an accident. We have flight simulators, what we need is a crash simulator.

[wildmaninid]

Cops need to make LESS money from traffic laws, not more. Considering there is absolutely zero mechanism in place that forces the cop to provide HARD PROOF of your "speeding violation" other than their own word, most traffic laws can kiss my ass. The problem isn't with the typical driver; most drivers are at least fairly considerate, rational, and capable. The problem is with people who don't, won't, or can't drive safe.

 

17 year old Bobby likes to ride ass less than a car length away from the guy in front of him because dude won't move over. Bobby needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

32 year old Kelly with the asshole kids and shitty marriage loses her shit in traffic every time someone wants to make a lane change. Kelly needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

87 year old Etna with two strokes, Alzheimer's, and Glaucoma under her belt is doing 35 on the free way because she thinks she's driving to church. Etna needs to have someone take her car away.

 

Speed limits do not save lives. Breaking speed limits do not destroy lives. Whether or not you're a safe driver is what determines the ultimate outcome. Speed limits, with a few exceptions, are nothing more than a mechanism to generate more revenue for bloated bureaucracies by taxing drivers without actually having to call it a tax. This is the exact reason that Oregon keeps so many of their freeways 55. Not because it is safer, but because it allows them to rape drivers. Freeway studies have found very little correlation between decreases in speed limits and traffic fatalities.

 

Montana proved for years that speed limits provide little benefit; however, safe driving does. Most people will drive what they feel is a safe speed, that's why most people drive 70-80 through Oregon, because, so long as conditions allow, it is a reasonable speed. Writing someone a $100 ticket and impounding their vehicle because they went one mile an hour over some arbitrary, politically-motivated number is absurd and ridiculous AT BEST; especially with the bias cops have to fib a ticket.

 

And even honest cops get wrapped up in the bullshit because not all equipment is accurate. Police lasers, being fairly cheap tech, have poor focal spread at a 1000 feet. Their lasers can have a beam wash of over ten feet wide; so if you're doing the speed limit, but someone in another lane isn't, but the cop is "aiming" at you through his view finder, he thinks you're speeding. What is further bullshit, is that a lot of states have given lasers judicial precedence, making the laser's "findings" unquestionable.

 

The issue with respect, or lack their of, is one of consequence. There is no consequence socially for being an asshole; and a lot of times there is a good amount of benefit. If people, as they were growing up, saw bullies getting the shit kicked out of them, there'd be a lesson learned that society will not accept people being bullies or assholes. We've also lost community. Growing up if you did something wrong, the whole neighborhood could be your parent. Now everyone is an island and they don't give a shit about those around them. This is all related to our disposable culture mentality.

 

Cops used to be respected because they were respectable. And many still are; but as each generation has gotten more and more isolated from the sense of community, the children are growing up into adults with a sense of "fuck everyone other than me". The bullies in school get on police forces so they can keep bullying people because it makes them feel empowered. So why would you want to give some prick with a badge the chance to impound someone's car over a bullshit, pointless regulation?

 

You want to get respect back in to drivers? Start making EVERYONE who wants to drive take an automotive shop class. Shit, make it part of drivers' education. If rich Sandra doesn't want to get her nails dirty, then she can ride the bus for the rest of her life.

 

Further more, do licensing on a horsepower gradient. And everyone in their first year of driving can't drive anything with more than 100 horsepower regardless. I hate driving past SkyView and MountainView up here in Vancouver and seeing the student parking lot full of new Beemers and Lexuses every year.

 

Lets also figure out a way, as part of drivers' education, to make people experience what it is like to be in an accident. We have flight simulators, what we need is a crash simulator.

[HRH]

Cops need to make LESS money from traffic laws, not more. Considering there is absolutely zero mechanism in place that forces the cop to provide HARD PROOF of your "speeding violation" other than their own word, most traffic laws can kiss my ass. The problem isn't with the typical driver; most drivers are at least fairly considerate, rational, and capable. The problem is with people who don't, won't, or can't drive safe.

 

17 year old Bobby likes to ride ass less than a car length away from the guy in front of him because dude won't move over. Bobby needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

32 year old Kelly with the asshole kids and shitty marriage loses her shit in traffic every time someone wants to make a lane change. Kelly needs to be beaten with a billy stick.

 

87 year old Etna with two strokes, Alzheimer's, and Glaucoma under her belt is doing 35 on the free way because she thinks she's driving to church. Etna needs to have someone take her car away.

 

Speed limits do not save lives. Breaking speed limits do not destroy lives. Whether or not you're a safe driver is what determines the ultimate outcome. Speed limits, with a few exceptions, are nothing more than a mechanism to generate more revenue for bloated bureaucracies by taxing drivers without actually having to call it a tax. This is the exact reason that Oregon keeps so many of their freeways 55. Not because it is safer, but because it allows them to rape drivers. Freeway studies have found very little correlation between decreases in speed limits and traffic fatalities.

 

Montana proved for years that speed limits provide little benefit; however, safe driving does. Most people will drive what they feel is a safe speed, that's why most people drive 70-80 through Oregon, because, so long as conditions allow, it is a reasonable speed. Writing someone a $100 ticket and impounding their vehicle because they went one mile an hour over some arbitrary, politically-motivated number is absurd and ridiculous AT BEST; especially with the bias cops have to fib a ticket.

 

And even honest cops get wrapped up in the bullshit because not all equipment is accurate. Police lasers, being fairly cheap tech, have poor focal spread at a 1000 feet. Their lasers can have a beam wash of over ten feet wide; so if you're doing the speed limit, but someone in another lane isn't, but the cop is "aiming" at you through his view finder, he thinks you're speeding. What is further bullshit, is that a lot of states have given lasers judicial precedence, making the laser's "findings" unquestionable.

 

The issue with respect, or lack their of, is one of consequence. There is no consequence socially for being an asshole; and a lot of times there is a good amount of benefit. If people, as they were growing up, saw bullies getting the shit kicked out of them, there'd be a lesson learned that society will not accept people being bullies or assholes. We've also lost community. Growing up if you did something wrong, the whole neighborhood could be your parent. Now everyone is an island and they don't give a shit about those around them. This is all related to our disposable culture mentality.

 

Cops used to be respected because they were respectable. And many still are; but as each generation has gotten more and more isolated from the sense of community, the children are growing up into adults with a sense of "fuck everyone other than me". The bullies in school get on police forces so they can keep bullying people because it makes them feel empowered. So why would you want to give some prick with a badge the chance to impound someone's car over a bullshit, pointless regulation?

 

You want to get respect back in to drivers? Start making EVERYONE who wants to drive take an automotive shop class. Shit, make it part of drivers' education. If rich Sandra doesn't want to get her nails dirty, then she can ride the bus for the rest of her life.

 

Further more, do licensing on a horsepower gradient. And everyone in their first year of driving can't drive anything with more than 100 horsepower regardless. I hate driving past SkyView and MountainView up here in Vancouver and seeing the student parking lot full of new Beemers and Lexuses every year.

 

Lets also figure out a way, as part of drivers' education, to make people experience what it is like to be in an accident. We have flight simulators, what we need is a crash simulator.

 

On that Montana thing, actually they re-instituted the speed limit due to a number of horrific wrecks. Unless we train drivers better, no speed limit is a bad idea because people don't get it. Too many differing schools of thought. What I really wish for is a tiered driver's license system, where those who have passed more driving/racing courses are allowed to go a higher speed than those who have not. Different colored license plates would dictate who could go 60 mph, who could go 70, and so on and so forth all the way to 200 mph. That's just me, and it probably would never work due to America just being America.

[wildmaninid]

I vote to let me be in charge.......then i could enforce some arbitrary rules on others with my mighty cruiser. I will light you up, assess your driving abilities. If you are a hottie, you can put my breath alyzer in your mouth and if you pass, then you are free to go. I cant wait to be in charge!

[datzenmike]

....most traffic laws can kiss my ass. The problem isn't with the typical driver; most drivers are at least fairly considerate, rational, and capable. The problem is with people who don't, won't, or can't drive safe.

 

"people who don't, won't, or can't drive safe" Does that include people that think that "most traffic laws can kiss my ass"?

 

 

Speed limits do not save lives. Breaking speed limits do not destroy lives. Whether or not you're a safe driver is what determines the ultimate outcome.

 

Things happen faster at high speeds, slowing takes longer. You can be the safest most experienced driver in the world and still be taken out by another unpredictable idiot. Being a safe driver merely tilts the odds in your favor and isn't a guarantee.

 

Speed limits, with a few exceptions, are nothing more than a mechanism to generate more revenue for bloated bureaucracies by taxing drivers without actually having to call it a tax. This is the exact reason that Oregon keeps so many of their freeways 55. Not because it is safer, but because it allows them to rape drivers. Freeway studies have found very little correlation between decreases in speed limits and traffic fatalities.

 

Montana proved for years that speed limits provide little benefit; however, safe driving does. Most people will drive what they feel is a safe speed, that's why most people drive 70-80 through Oregon, because, so long as conditions allow, it is a reasonable speed. Writing someone a $100 ticket and impounding their vehicle because they went one mile an hour over some arbitrary, politically-motivated number is absurd and ridiculous AT BEST; especially with the bias cops have to fib a ticket.

 

Sounds like you have been repeatedly rapped because you couldn't obey the law and can't get over it. "a mechanism to generate more revenue for bloated bureaucracies by taxing drivers" "politically-motivated " "bias cops" " it allows them to rape drivers" Sorry, not seeing it, but hearing lots of ax grinding.

 

The issue with respect, or lack their of, is one of consequence. There is no consequence socially for being an asshole; and a lot of times there is a good amount of benefit. If people, as they were growing up, saw bullies getting the shit kicked out of them, there'd be a lesson learned that society will not accept people being bullies or assholes. We've also lost community. Growing up if you did something wrong, the whole neighborhood could be your parent. Now everyone is an island and they don't give a shit about those around them. This is all related to our disposable culture mentality.

 

Hmmm

 

The bullies in school get on police forces so they can keep bullying people because it makes them feel empowered.

 

Give the police some credit for screening applicants will you?

 

You want to get respect back in to drivers? Start making EVERYONE who wants to drive take an automotive shop class. Shit, make it part of drivers' education. If rich Sandra doesn't want to get her nails dirty, then she can ride the bus for the rest of her life.

 

What has auto shop to do with driving the speed limit or obeying the driving laws? This sounds like a swipe at rich Sandra types with their BMWs and Mercedes to me. You sure don't need to know how a car works to be a safe driver.

 

Further more, do licensing on a horsepower gradient. And everyone in their first year of driving can't drive anything with more than 100 horsepower regardless. I hate driving past SkyView and MountainView up here in Vancouver and seeing the student parking lot full of new Beemers and Lexuses every year.

 

Again another swipe at the affluent. 100 hp is still enough to exceed the speed limit and more than enough to wrap a car around a tree. Rather than auto shop and a 100 hp limit, new drivers would be better served if they were required to pass a defensive driving and accident avoidance course. Perhaps some time on a skid pan to demonstrate their new skills. Perhaps a competency test every few years when your license is renewed instead of rubber stamping it.

 

Lets also figure out a way, as part of drivers' education, to make people experience what it is like to be in an accident. We have flight simulators, what we need is a crash simulator.

 

Crashing a plane in a flight simulator is nothing compared to the real thing. You know it's just a ride you walk away from. Better to have them ride with a cop to a real fatal traffic accident. Now that, is a fucking eye opener!!!!

[Skib]

Give the police some credit for screening applicants will you?

 

 

 

 

lol idk how Canada is but around here they dont do a very good job.

 

 

distrust... like respect, is earned.

 

and I dont trust police <_<