guns

[datsunfreak]

5 hours ago, Soundline said:

There’s so many changes to the law on a weekly bases, it’s hard to keep up.  Here’s the thing, protect your family.  If the courts judge you unfairly, fuck’em.  I’d rather go to prison than watch a member of my household be killed.  Any judge or juror that finds you guilty is probably someone who eats a snickers upside down to pretend it’s a veiny dick.
 

On a positive note, I dug this out of my backlog for ‘fail to eject magazine’ and ‘fail to fire’.  The firing pin spring was broken and the mag release spring was heavily corroded. She’s back in service now.  HK USP V.1 .40 S&W.  Original purchase date, 1996.

 

I would love to have one of the USP Compact 9's, but damn are they spendy...

[IZRL]

Damn! This little guy ate more lead than Tony Montana.

 

 

Hard to believe law enforcement around here has been switched over from 40/45s to 9s.

[paradime]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:19 PM, IZRL said:

Damn! This little guy ate more lead than Tony Montana.

 

 

Hard to believe law enforcement around here has been switched over from 40/45s to 9s.

Holy F,n shit! Either that rabid coon had kevlar fur, or that lady had no business carrying a gun. Not long ago, the 38 special (9.6 mm) was standard issue for officers. it holds 6 rounds, muzzle velocity of 755 fps, and 200 ft lb. of energy. Colt 45 holds 7 rounds, 738 MV, and 297 ft lb. A 9mm Beretta holds 15 rounds, 1250 MV, and 300 ft lb. Until 2017, it was also the standard sidearm in all branches of the military. Thats why I got one.

Edited April 21 by paradime

[elmerfudpucker]

The shoot in shovel method while efficient has some issues. First satellite and drone cameras are good enough to find grave shaped holes that have been recently dug, but doesn't seem to notice round holes. Cadaver dogs can find graves, if a dead animal is uncovered, they normally will not dig any further. And some law enforcement will avoid digging up endangered plants and trees. Just a few items to keep in mind. But did you know a pig can digest anything but teeth?

[frankendat]

19 hours ago, paradime said:

Holy F,n shit! Either that rabid coon had kevlar fur, or that lady had no business carrying a gun. Not long ago, the 38 special (9.6 mm) was standard issue for officers. it holds 6 rounds, muzzle velocity of 755 fps, and 200 ft lb. of energy. Colt 45 holds 7 rounds, 738 MV, and 297 ft lb. A 9mm Beretta holds 15 rounds, 1250 MV, and 300 ft lb. Until 2017, it was also the standard sidearm in all branches of the military. Thats why I got one.

The military's move was based on a number of factors but stopping power 9mm vs 45 wasn't one of them. But, being a military standard it means ammo and parts are and should remain available and the Beretta makes some fine firearms. I am not a fan of the Glocks, but must admit they have held up well. Your ammo specs are not exact, but then there are so many different kinds I can't keep them straight. One key component that your ammo specs (and most 9mm fans like to omit) is bullet weight. A bullet starts to lose velocity the second it leaves the barrel, so with weapons that depend on bullet velocity e.g. 9mm, 5.56, for the majority of their power, the bullet becomes much less effective as it travels. A bullet never loses weight, so bullets that depend on mass for the majority of their power .45, .308, .338, while they too lose effectiveness as they travel, it is to a much lesser degree. 

Firearm companies like to claim they are on the "cutting edge" but there hasn't been an original caliber or configuration in decades. The swing is from fast light bullets to slow heavy bullets and back again. Notice all these sub sonics that are now popular and what have they "discovered" -- even traveling sub sonic a 220gr .300 Blackout is still traveling near 1000fps carrying over 400 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards (and quietly)

 

[paradime]

53 minutes ago, frankendat said:

The military's move was based on a number of factors but stopping power 9mm vs 45 wasn't one of them. But, being a military standard it means ammo and parts are and should remain available and the Beretta makes some fine firearms. I am not a fan of the Glocks, but must admit they have held up well. Your ammo specs are not exact, but then there are so many different kinds I can't keep them straight. One key component that your ammo specs (and most 9mm fans like to omit) is bullet weight. A bullet starts to lose velocity the second it leaves the barrel, so with weapons that depend on bullet velocity e.g. 9mm, 5.56, for the majority of their power, the bullet becomes much less effective as it travels. A bullet never loses weight, so bullets that depend on mass for the majority of their power .45, .308, .338, while they too lose effectiveness as they travel, it is to a much lesser degree. 

Firearm companies like to claim they are on the "cutting edge" but there hasn't been an original caliber or configuration in decades. The swing is from fast light bullets to slow heavy bullets and back again. Notice all these sub sonics that are now popular and what have they "discovered" -- even traveling sub sonic a 220gr .300 Blackout is still traveling near 1000fps carrying over 400 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards (and quietly)

 

 

All true and I get your point, but my Beretta is for home protection, not 500 yard kill shots. Whether rounded nose or hollow point, the 9mm round is intended for close combat. A long smaller cal bullet with a pointed nose, pushed by 220gr stays super sonic for a much greater distance, and fired through a much loner rifled barrel, it's a different animal altogether. Surrounded by gun owning neighbors, not much use for that kind of hardware, but I do have a Winchester 3030 just in case shit gets real. LOL.

[frankendat]

1 hour ago, paradime said:

 

All true and I get your point, but my Beretta is for home protection, not 500 yard kill shots. Whether rounded nose or hollow point, the 9mm round is intended for close combat. A long smaller cal bullet with a pointed nose, pushed by 220gr stays super sonic for a much greater distance, and fired through a much loner rifled barrel, it's a different animal altogether. Surrounded by gun owning neighbors, not much use for that kind of hardware, but I do have a Winchester 3030 just in case shit gets real. LOL.

The 9mm has proven less reliable in close combat. I brought up the 300 Blackout firing 220gr for an extreme example. Take standard service grade FMJ tired and true 230gr .45ACP ammunition. 835fps 356ftlbs. The 9mm bullet might go faster and could even penetrate deeper, but the .45 has knock down power, fight stopping power. Think of getting hit with a faster golfball vs a slower baseball, both deadly if they hit you in the head, but one is more likely to knock you down with a body shot. 

Now, there is some ammunition specifically designed to increase the knock down power of a 9mm but as discussed infra there is possibility of civil liability when using that ammunition. (especially in the Communist states)

If you read the history and development of the .45 ACP, the sole mission was a round that would stop aggressive attackers (suicidal, drug enraged, self tortured natives) from hacking up troops. The 9mm was issued at that time and too many soldiers were killed before the attackers were terminated. That was in the early 1900s and many believe combat and combat doctrine has evolved since then, and they might be right, in terms of military/para military or law enforcement. But, for personal defense, defense of family, individual close combat, the primary and immediate goal is stopping the attack and neutralizing the attacker, the same as it was in the early 1900's, and for that the .45 ACP has been textbook and field proven to reign supreme.

[IZRL]

8 hours ago, frankendat said:

If you read the history and development of the .45 ACP, the sole mission was a round that would stop aggressive attackers (suicidal, drug enraged, self tortured natives) from hacking up troops. The 9mm was issued at that time and too many soldiers were killed before the attackers were terminated.

 

9mm don't make sense to me for law enforcement. 

Edited April 22 by IZRL

[IZRL]

Delete, double post.

Edited April 22 by IZRL

[flatcat19]

20 hours ago, IZRL said:

 

9mm don't make sense to me for law enforcement. 

 

124 or 147 gr JHP leaves quite the hole. 

 

Also, at half the cost of .40 or .45 equivalent. 

 

Half the weight, twice the quantity. 

 

That's where 9mm makes sense. 

 

 

[flatcat19]

So ....

My kids went camping with their scout troops over the weekend. 2 two sons are in one troop, my daughter is in a different troop. Camporee, they called it. Miles away from home, Friday and Saturday night. Pretty cool. It was my daughter's first camping trip without us. 

 

Wife and I played a little Brown Chicken, Brown Cow while we had an empty nest. 

We went up Saturday to check the site out and see the kids doing their things. 

Rock Climbing, Fire Starting, Axe Throwing, tons of stuff. Including shooting. 

 

Kids had a blast. Getting to see all of them with real smiles...and no electronics! 

 

 

 

 

[flatcat19]

Boys were already running off to the next event before wifey could even get her phone out. 

 

They all came home Sunday morning. 2 of the 3 were stoked telling us about their adventures and they wanted to go on to do more shooting. 

 

Who am I to argue? 

 

 

[flatcat19]

Well, Monday comes around(yesterday) and I get a phone call. It's the LGS telling me to come pickup my firearm. 

 

(Stupid WA State and your 10 day cooldown period.) 

Most people buying guns already own guns. I don't need a fucking cooldown period. 

 

Anyways. We bought the kids a rifle 10 business days ago. 

Ruger American .22LR bolt. 

They all shot well with it over the weekend at scouts, so this was a great choice. 

Kids were very happy. 

 

 

[flatcat19]

And tonight...the scouts have rented out a local range so we can finish the gun safety/shotgun handling portion of their training. 

 

Should be a hoot. My safe has been cleared. I know the Scoutmasters safe has been cleared. Gon' be a LOT of toys for everyone tonight. 

 

I donated 400 target 12 gauge shells and a couple thousand rounds of 22 for the troop. 

 

I won't be shooting much today. More going to help teach the kids and play one hell of a half-assed range officer. 

 

(Sorry for all the posts. I used to know how to write after posting pictures. Fucking new guy.) 

 

Hope to be able to share more pics tomorrow. 

[frankendat]

8 hours ago, flatcat19 said:

Well, Monday comes around(yesterday) and I get a phone call. It's the LGS telling me to come pickup my firearm. 

 

(Stupid WA State and your 10 day cooldown period.) 

Most people buying guns already own guns. I don't need a fucking cooldown period. 

 

Anyways. We bought the kids a rifle 10 business days ago. 

Ruger American .22LR bolt. 

They all shot well with it over the weekend at scouts, so this was a great choice. 

Kids were very happy. 

 

 

I am not up on the new stocks, is that the tired, true and awesome Ruger 10/22?

[frankendat]

8 hours ago, flatcat19 said:

And tonight...the scouts have rented out a local range so we can finish the gun safety/shotgun handling portion of their training. 

 

Should be a hoot. My safe has been cleared. I know the Scoutmasters safe has been cleared. Gon' be a LOT of toys for everyone tonight. 

 

I donated 400 target 12 gauge shells and a couple thousand rounds of 22 for the troop. 

 

I won't be shooting much today. More going to help teach the kids and play one hell of a half-assed range officer. 

 

(Sorry for all the posts. I used to know how to write after posting pictures. Fucking new guy.) 

 

Hope to be able to share more pics tomorrow. 

The pictures are fantastic! (and give me hope) One of the photos threw me for a minute, until I realized there's a lefty :)

Edited April 24 by frankendat

[flatcat19]

7 minutes ago, frankendat said:

I am not up on the new stocks, is that the tired, true and awesome Ruger 10/22?

 

Not a 10/22. Bolt action. 

We did not want the kids to have semi auto for their first gun. 

 

And, yes. Left eye. All 3 of my kids are.left eye. Goofy fuckers. 

[datsunfreak]

5 hours ago, flatcat19 said:

 

Not a 10/22. Bolt action. 

We did not want the kids to have semi auto for their first gun. 

 

And, yes. Left eye. All 3 of my kids are.left eye. Goofy fuckers. 

 

My oldest son got a Ruger 10/22 for his 14th birthday, mostly because it's what they shot with in Boy Scouts.

 

Son #2 hated shooting it because he's left handed.  😄

 

A bolt-action might be the smarter play just because all your kids are lefties. 

[Soundline]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:57 AM, datsunfreak said:

 

I would love to have one of the USP Compact 9's, but damn are they spendy...

That’s what my sister carried as her personal gun for about 20 years in her contract and work in the alphabet soup agencies.  She left me one when she passed, I still haven’t shot it.

 

On 4/21/2024 at 3:23 PM, frankendat said:

The military's move was based on a number of factors but stopping power 9mm vs 45 wasn't one of them. But, being a military standard it means ammo and parts are and should remain available and the Beretta makes some fine firearms. I am not a fan of the Glocks, but must admit they have held up well. Your ammo specs are not exact, but then there are so many different kinds I can't keep them straight. One key component that your ammo specs (and most 9mm fans like to omit) is bullet weight. A bullet starts to lose velocity the second it leaves the barrel, so with weapons that depend on bullet velocity e.g. 9mm, 5.56, for the majority of their power, the bullet becomes much less effective as it travels. A bullet never loses weight, so bullets that depend on mass for the majority of their power .45, .308, .338, while they too lose effectiveness as they travel, it is to a much lesser degree. 

Firearm companies like to claim they are on the "cutting edge" but there hasn't been an original caliber or configuration in decades. The swing is from fast light bullets to slow heavy bullets and back again. Notice all these sub sonics that are now popular and what have they "discovered" -- even traveling sub sonic a 220gr .300 Blackout is still traveling near 1000fps carrying over 400 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards (and quietly)

 

This is an absolutely valid point.  It’s part of the Marine Corps justification for reintroduction of the 1911.  Especially in very close range fighting in Afghanistan when they started encountering targets that were purposefully ingesting potentially lethal doses of stimulants to fight more aggressively. The .45 ACP is more effective in this situation than the 9mm.  This has been proven everywhere from postmortem autopsies, government studies, to even entertainment gun content on social media.  

 

On 4/21/2024 at 11:10 PM, IZRL said:

 

9mm don't make sense to me for law enforcement. 

That’s an easy one, buy 20,000 rounds of training ammo for .45 ACP vs 9mm.  Big departments like DHS might need 200,000 or even 2,000,000 rounds a year for training.  It adds up quickly in a era where agencies are under funded, they cut corners where they can.

 

Next, as the stated purpose of public security is to “protect and serve”.  Using a round that is claimed by NATO to be designed to ‘wound’ not kill in combat is easier to justify in court. If officers were walking around with .500 S&W Mag handguns it “creates the perception of kill squads”.  
 

The fact of the matter is, single gun shot wounds are rarely fatal in handgun cases.  As an anecdotal piece of evidence, I was shot in the knee with a .44 mag handgun at point blank range.  I still btfo’d the shooter after being shot.  The lethality of a handgun fight increases the more rounds you get on target.  With my Glock 17, I can have up to 33 chances in a single magazine to get you to stop harming someone.  With my 8 rd 1911 magazines I need a full mag and 4 reloads to get to 33.  The other factors include things such as multiple attackers, every time your gun goes dry in a fight for your life, it’s a bad time.
 

After that, the ability for the round to over penetrate in modern construction is taken into account.  The way we were permitted to carry Speer Gold Dot 9mm 147 grain and the 9mm +P 124 grain rounds was because they penetrated less layers of drywall in state testing than even the CCI Blazer 9mm 115 Grain.  I wasn’t present for that test so I don’t know the methodology.

 

Last one I can think of off the top of my head is some agencies have policies that instruct officers to use their handgun only as a means to fight their way back to their patrol rifle.  Since the weapons are thought of as a package deal, then the agency is counting the lethal force of the 5.56 or 7.62x51.

 

On 4/22/2024 at 8:04 PM, flatcat19 said:

 

124 or 147 gr JHP leaves quite the hole. 

 

Also, at half the cost of .40 or .45 equivalent. 

 

Half the weight, twice the quantity. 

 

That's where 9mm makes sense. 

 

 

9mm makes since for several of the reasons listed above.  However, Frank is completely correct, .45 ACP is a better ballistic round against human targets.  He’s put a lot of careful research and thought into it and you’ve reached your preferred caliber.  I choose a different caliber after a similarly involved research effort.  If we’re in a full on zombie apocalypse, I’m grabbing a .45 for the reasons he listed above.  

[IZRL]

1 hour ago, Soundline said:

That’s an easy one, buy 20,000 rounds of training ammo for .45 ACP vs 9mm.  Big departments like DHS might need 200,000 or even 2,000,000 rounds a year for training.  It adds up quickly in a era where agencies are under funded, they cut corners where they can.

 

Next, as the stated purpose of public security is to “protect and serve”.  Using a round that is claimed by NATO to be designed to ‘wound’ not kill in combat is easier to justify in court. If officers were walking around with .500 S&W Mag handguns it “creates the perception of kill squads”.  

 

Recently I asked a friend of mine who's in law enforcement about why the change from 40/45 to 9s. He says that what he heard was that they based it on ease of use. They said that people are more accurate with the 9 (which for me i feel im the opposite). It seems like that's the story with everything in America now days. Lower the bar, so the less capable can reach. Versus forcing people to put some time and effort to reach the minimum standards.

 

I'm no expert by any means, but in my mind if an officer has made the decision to use his side arm. It's not meant to slow the threat down or just injure them.  His intention is to stop the threat immediately. According to the 21 foot rule. On average a man with a knife can cover a distance of 21 feet in 1.5-2 seconds. I don't care how fast your trigger finger is. You're not going to unload a magazine in that time. So stopping a threat immediately or as close to that as possibly is preferable. Who cares what's justifiable in court when I have to choose between my life vs someone else's, IMO.

Edited April 25 by IZRL

[datsunfreak]

11 hours ago, IZRL said:

Recently I asked a friend of mine who's in law enforcement about why the change from 40/45 to 9s. He says that what he heard was that they based it on ease of use. They said that people are more accurate with the 9 (which for me i feel im the opposite). It seems like that's the story with everything in America now days. Lower the bar, so the less capable can reach. Versus forcing people to put some time and effort to reach the minimum standards.

 

I think this could be a somewhat myopic view of that situation. 

 

I would counter with "the first priority in being a skilled law enforcement officer maybe shouldn't be how many rounds you can put into a small circle from 40 feet". In fact, I would say it's fairly low on the list of what makes a "good" police officer. 

 

If you had a viable candidate, who is skilled at negotiation, de-escalation, an excellent driver, an excellent fighter, and wicked smart, you would want to flunk them out because they aren't as comfortable/accurate shooting with a 45? I would not. If they are more effective/accurate with a 9mm, let them carry a 9mm. I have shot just about every flavor of ammo there is, but I am most comfortable/accurate with either a 9mm or a 22LR. And I ain't gonna carry no 22LR. 😄

 

And the previous statements about reducing the lethality of what the officer has on his hip makes sense to me. I would rather them be a good shot with a tazer to be honest. 👍

[MikeRL411]

On 4/21/2024 at 6:15 PM, frankendat said:

The 9mm has proven less reliable in close combat. I brought up the 300 Blackout firing 220gr for an extreme example. Take standard service grade FMJ tired and true 230gr .45ACP ammunition. 835fps 356ftlbs. The 9mm bullet might go faster and could even penetrate deeper, but the .45 has knock down power, fight stopping power. Think of getting hit with a faster golfball vs a slower baseball, both deadly if they hit you in the head, but one is more likely to knock you down with a body shot. 

Now, there is some ammunition specifically designed to increase the knock down power of a 9mm but as discussed infra there is possibility of civil liability when using that ammunition. (especially in the Communist states)

If you read the history and development of the .45 ACP, the sole mission was a round that would stop aggressive attackers (suicidal, drug enraged, self tortured natives) from hacking up troops. The _9mms issued at that time and too many soldiers were killed before the attackers were terminated. That was in the early 1900s and many believe combat and combat doctrine has evolved since then, and they might be right, in terms of military/para military or law enforcement. But, for personal defense, defense of family, individual close combat, the primary and immediate goal is stopping the attack and neutralizing the attacker, the same as it was in the early 1900's, and for that the .45 ACP has been textbook and field proven to reign supreme.

 38 Special, not 9mm!

[frankendat]

2 hours ago, MikeRL411 said:

 38 Special, not 9mm!

Not sure if I understand. I would choose a .38 over a 9mm, because, the lightweight .38 Detective revolver is a simple, safe, easy, concealable weapon and I prioritize those features over others, when advocating concealed carry. If the situation might warrant prioritization of stopping power (people), higher capacity and ease/speed of reload, then I choose .45 ACP . The 9mm, much like the .40 and whatever "new" calibers are the favorite of the week, attempt to answer problems and address priorities, which are not my concern. 

[MikeRL411]

11 minutes ago, frankendat said:

Not sure if I understand. I would choose a .38 over a 9mm, because, the lightweight .38 Detective revolver is a simple, safe, easy, concealable weapon and I prioritize those features over others, when advocating concealed carry. If the situation might warrant prioritization of stopping power (people), higher capacity and ease/speed of reload, then I choose .45 ACP . The 9mm, much like the .40 and whatever "new" calibers are the favorite of the week, attempt to answer problems and address priorities, which are not my concern. 

 The pistol caliber used by American forces against Philipino Moro insurrectionists was ,38 caliber revolvers not 9mm handguns, The adoption of the 45 Automatic was to a large extent driven by this inadequate stopping power demonstration, The 9mm Parabellum had not yet been developed by 1898 and the Spanish American war,

[frankendat]

9 minutes ago, MikeRL411 said:

 The pistol caliber used by American forces against Philipino Moro insurrectionists was ,38 caliber revolvers not 9mm handguns, The adoption of the 45 Automatic was to a large extent driven by this inadequate stopping power demonstration, The 9mm Parabellum had not yet been developed by 1898 and the Spanish American war,

Damn, you're right. While I seem to remember concepts easily, details can escape. What stuck in my mind was that the natives wrapped wet rawhide around their junk and then drugged up and started dancing around a hot fire. The pain and drugs frenzy was increased with the knowledge if they lived through the battle, they would be living without their manhood.