Project FI

[wingnut]

Hi folks.

I'm brand new here and would like to get my feet wet on the forum. I like the fact there are so many NW posters here and look foreward to meeting you.

My name is Art and I run the Doctor Injector of Renton shop. A friend just hooked me up with a basket case 70 510 2dr auto to play with and turn into an autocrosser. The car is literally in a basket. It comes with 2 L16 engines, one rebuilt and the other "worn out". Webber side draft carbs. One KA24 of unknown build date with a 5sp dogbone or is it dogleg transmission.

As I run a FI shop it just won't do to have a carburetor on my ride. I would like to convert the L16 to FI and was wondering if there were any factory intake manifolds that would bolt up to the L16 head. I don't care about the SCCA rules as the car will just be a weekend warrior/ thrasher fun car. I was hoping for factory stuff because I don't want to try and reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.

I'm not interested in the KA swap yet because it has a rod knock and I will need to go through it before I can put it in. I think I will have enough stuff on my plate just getting it going after sitting in a shed for 20 years.

It sounds like everything is there as far as the car goes, just in boxes. It is missing a windshield. Anybody know of a local connection for glass?

Thanks in advance for the help. You folks have already helped me in the huge database on info here........Art

[bonvo]

there is a factory l4 injection manifold but its rare you might want to get a 7 car mani and cut it to fit

[Phlebmaster]

Welcome to Ratsun Art! :D

 

I think Icehouse has done a few injection L motors...so he would be a good one to talk to about the manifolds.

 

Sounds like you have a fun project ahead of you, be sure to post up pictures of your ride and your progress too.

[LenRobertson]

Wow! "Dogbone" transmission. A term I'm going to use from now on. You brightened up my (winter is back in E Wa) day.

I'm FI phobic, so I have no firsthand knowledge, but from what I've read, the factory FI manifold (if you can find one) isn't much for performance applications. Small ports or runners or some such malady. Cut & welded early 280Z manifold is supposed to be better, but also not an easy part to find. So fabricating a manifold from scratch sometimes ends up being what you have to do, even if you don't want to go to that much work.

Here is a link to one FI article - http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/articles/tech_efi.html

 

Len

[Icehouse]

That Dime Quarterly article is so old school! :D I don't see how it's much of an upgrade myself, yeah it would work but in this day and age there are way better ways to go. Like Megasquirt or even KA24E EFI. I think swapping a KA is easier than adapting EFI to an L series haha :D I'm still working on it though :D

[blue72]

I recall there being some discussion of cutting down Z FI intakes and trying to adapt them to the L4, but I'm not sure whatever came of it.

I believe they were trying to chop the middle out of an N47 mani, but the two halves of the plenum didn't line up well.

 

You could always take an SU manifold and replace the carbs with twin throttle bodies.

Edited March 11, 2009 by blue72

[Icehouse]

Yeah I did it, here are the pics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I totally messed up one of the runners and haven't went back and fixed it :( I just didn't really like how the runners ended up after fixing the plenum, kinda crooked and suck ass.

[HRH]

Yep, early 280z manifold, chopped and sectioned is the easiest way. That's what I'll be using soon. Or build a custom manifold.

 

As far as glass, you have better sources on the coast than we do here. I bought the last two 510 windshields from A-Star in Spokane. There's a guy in Cali who won't ship who makes windshields. There is probably more than one, but I've only heard of the one. Still, 510 windshields are probably the easiest of old Datsun windshields to be found. I shouldn't say easy. Least hard, let's say.

[blue72]

Or, if you're really feeling spunky just buy a pair of sidedraft Weber/Mikuni/Solex/etc... manifolds and have 4 EFI ITB's. Mmmmmm.

 

Like the Extrudabody kit for instance:

http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-225/Kit-cln--Datsun-L20B%2C-L18%2C/Detail

Edited March 11, 2009 by blue72

[heirfaus]

Or, if you're really feeling spunky just buy a pair of sidedraft Weber/Mikuni/etc... manifolds and have 4 ITB's. Mmmmmm.

 

I think you guys are missing the hidden motives...HE OWNS A INJECTION SHOP :D (and he already has a set of webers as mentioned in the first post)

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Art,

 

 

Please please please listen to what I have to say. As you know EFI is a godsend for old cars. I couldn't do the carb thing either. So here is the BIG question: Are you switching to EFI for a power upgrade or for the benefit's of EFI? I'm guessing you know EFI doesn't bring power, so I have to assume it's because of the benefits of EFI (and the fact that you would look like a fool with an Injection business and have a carb on your dime :):blink:).

 

That Dime Quarterly article is so old school! :D I don't see how it's much of an upgrade myself, yeah it would work but in this day and age there are way better ways to go. Like Megasquirt or even KA24E EFI. I think swapping a KA is easier than adapting EFI to an L series haha :D I'm still working on it though :D

 

Jeff, I have the greatest respect for you and your work, but I think you're way off here. I don't think KA EFI would work to well on a motor approx only 60-70% of the size. You would need a fuel management system and that would defeat the purpose. And Megasquirt is FAR FAR simpler than swapping a KA. If you have all the parts it would take a half a day to swap Megasquirt onto an L series and be driving down the road at a fraction of the price.

 

With that said, if you don't have a manifold like mine(the JDM original equipment) then you have a pretty big obstacle. The other options are the 6 cylinder manifold like mentioned above, a completely custom manifold or this:

 

http://www.modern-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=52

 

If I could do it again I would have bought the one off of Modern Motorsports. Byron 510 who is rarely on this site, but very active on the510realm.com makes the manifold. You might be able to get it cheaper from him...dunno though.

 

Check out my thread and learn from my successes....er um or mistakes:o

 

http://the510realm.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3562

 

And remember if you can read, Megasquirt is AWESOME and EASY (it just requires ALOT of reading)

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[thisismatt]

:o $400 is a lot of money for an intake and then you still need everything else. You can practically get a full K motor swap for that much.

[DatsunKid]

Anyone ever try to use an intake from a l28 and just cut it and weld it to fit?

[thisismatt]

Anyone ever try to use an intake from a l28 and just cut it and weld it to fit?

No, never :blink:

[pl521sss]

Anyone ever try to use an intake from a l28 and just cut it and weld it to fit?

 

 

what!!

no way

Never seen that or heard of anyone doing it

[DatsunKid]

lol I did not read any of this thread i just posted:o I feel like such a newb:(

[thisismatt]

lol I did not read any of this thread i just posted:o I feel like such a newb:(

It's okay - we're laughing with you, not at you. You are laughing, right? :lol:

[DatsunKid]

:D

[heirfaus]

:o $400 is a lot of money for an intake and then you still need everything else. You can practically get a full K motor swap for that much.

 

You know I was just turning on the computer because I was thinking about it and EFI isn't too cheap. Thanks for the correction Matt:)

 

Likewise there is much more to the KA swap than the motor. All the little things add up....Ask Luke who is finishing his...it caught him by surprise.

[Icehouse]

Jeff, I have the greatest respect for you and your work, but I think you're way off here. I don't think KA EFI would work to well on a motor approx only 60-70% of the size. You would need a fuel management system and that would defeat the purpose. And Megasquirt is FAR FAR simpler than swapping a KA. If you have all the parts it would take a half a day to swap Megasquirt onto an L series and be driving down the road at a fraction of the price.

 

24/20=84% so it's 16% difference in size. well if he has a L20 and it's not bored over..... Yeah if it's an L16 it would be quite a difference but I don't think it would mater. :D

 

I know it wouldn't work as good as megasquirt but it would be cheaper and easier to a guy like me. I've been "working" on hooking MS up in one of my cars for way to long! :D It didn't help that right before I started wiring it thieves decided to steel it... I think the MAF would make up for the displacement difference, or messing with the TPS could also tune out any little bit it's off.

[thisismatt]

You know I was just turning on the computer because I was thinking about it and EFI isn't too cheap. Thanks for the correction Matt:)

 

Likewise there is much more to the KA swap than the motor. All the little things add up....Ask Luke who is finishing his...it caught him by surprise.

I'm not trying to knock anyone's L motor EFI project...I guess I just don't understand :D You have to add/modify a bunch of stuff on the L motor, plus on top of that the normal stuff you'd have to add/modify for a KA install.

[blue72]

I think you guys are missing the hidden motives...HE OWNS A INJECTION SHOP :D (and he already has a set of webers as mentioned in the first post)

 

Okay then, if my other two EFI suggestions don't float your boat, then possibility #3: stealth.

Gut the Webers and install injectors in them. Sprinkle with some tuning and voila! EFI goodness in a package that looks oldschool.

[heirfaus]

Okay then, if my other two EFI suggestions don't float your boat, then possibility #3: stealth.

Gut the Webers and install injectors in them. Sprinkle with some tuning and voila! EFI goodness in a package that looks oldschool.

 

Carbs with injectors:D

[WAGON JON]

I built an efi using an 4 cyl l-series manifold, and 81 200sx efi with some of the 280zx stuff... just about the same thing that is on the Dime Quarterly. I ran it for five years. It worked great. It wan on an old l-16 automagic...that very car that Clayton and Lisa down in the Bay Area "the Lisas 15 cents" car...yeah that was mine for 10 years. It cost me 1000 scrillas after i sat down and did the math.

[heirfaus]

:o $400 is a lot of money for an intake and then you still need everything else. You can practically get a full K motor swap for that much.

 

You know I was just turning on the computer because I was thinking about it and EFI isn't too cheap. Thanks for the correction Matt:)

 

Likewise there is much more to the KA swap than the motor. All the little things add up....Ask Luke who is finishing his...it caught him by surprise.

 

 

I built an efi using an 4 cyl l-series manifold, and 81 200sx efi with some of the 280zx stuff... just about the same thing that is on the Dime Quarterly. I ran it for five years. It worked great. It wan on an old l-16 automagic...that very car that Clayton and Lisa down in the Bay Area "the Lisas 15 cents" car...yeah that was mine for 10 years. It cost me 1000 scrillas after i sat down and did the math.

 

What manifold did you use? Does it bolt right onto an L head?

 

And actually if you can weld aluminum or know someone who can it's pretty cheap. I was going over it in my head and the manifold is the only tough part.

 

fuel pump from a 200sx(the year under the passenger seat): wrecking yard 15 bucks?

generic fuel filter: dirt cheap 15 bucks

KA24 t body: wrecking yard dirt cheap 10-25 bucks?

810 throttle cable: wrecking yard dirt cheap 5 bucks?

EI Dizzy: wrecking yard 15 bucks

Injectors: wrecking yard 40 bucks/rebuilt 100 bucks

Megasquirt and harness: 250

 

What did I miss?

 

Oh yeah Fast idle valve from 280zx: wrecking yard 5 bucks

 

 

24/20=84% so it's 16% difference in size. well if he has a L20 and it's not bored over..... Yeah if it's an L16 it would be quite a difference but I don't think it would mater. :D

 

I know it wouldn't work as good as megasquirt but it would be cheaper and easier to a guy like me. I've been "working" on hooking MS up in one of my cars for way to long! :D It didn't help that right before I started wiring it thieves decided to steel it... I think the MAF would make up for the displacement difference, or messing with the TPS could also tune out any little bit it's off.

 

Yeah the first post said he has 2 L16's so it would be a big difference, 16/24=.6666:eek:

 

The MAF sensor won't make up for it. When you finish up the MS and get to the programming you will see that the system needs a fuel map set up with VERY strict specs. If you change the size of the motor (like bore it larger) you'd have to go back and re-program a new fuel map. The sensors are like you eyes, nose, ears, but you have to have the correct brain.

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to knock anyone's L motor EFI project...I guess I just don't understand :D You have to add/modify a bunch of stuff on the L motor, plus on top of that the normal stuff you'd have to add/modify for a KA install.

 

Well it's 2 different things. I like electrical. I'd rather do electrical work than mod crossmembers and steerlinkage and pull and install motors. Icehouse doesn't seem to like electrical so he puts in a complete swap. I don't think either is better, one will just suit the specific person better.

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[heirfaus]

Okay then, if my other two EFI suggestions don't float your boat, then possibility #3: stealth.

Gut the Webers and install injectors in them. Sprinkle with some tuning and voila! EFI goodness in a package that looks oldschool.

 

"MMmmmm....sprinkles"

 

Homer Simpson

 

I didn't notice you put up the link to the EFI ITB's. That is a beautiful setup. The only thing I wonder about, and I am absolutely NOT the authority in the area, but I seem to remember that you want the fuel injectors to be as close to the valve as possible. That setup does quite the opposite. Considering the revolution of the direct injection setup I have to assume that the Extrude setup is far from optimal at a hefty price.

 

Carbs and injectors it is:lol: