Project FI

[Icehouse]

Yeah the first post said he has 2 L16's so it would be a big difference, 16/24=.6666:eek:

 

The MAF sensor won't make up for it. When you finish up the MS and get to the programming you will see that the system needs a fuel map set up with VERY strict specs. If you change the size of the motor (like bore it larger) you'd have to go back and re-program a new fuel map. The sensors are like you eyes, nose, ears, but you have to have the correct brain.

 

Okay so maybe an L16 would be a little on the small size... I think it would work fine with an L20 though. I even think it would run better on my L16 than my dual carbs do :D

 

 

Well it's 2 different things. I like electrical. I'd rather do electrical work than mod crossmembers and steerlinkage and pull and install motors. Icehouse doesn't seem to like electrical so he puts in a complete swap. I don't think either is better, one will just suit the specific person better.

 

I just like newer engines for the most part, I don't mind wiring, welding, it's all fun :D I really need to finish up the MS project... I just have way to many projects at the moment.... Like Jon said it adds up quick even with the L series EFI, I'm sure you could do it cheaper because you've done it once. Same with motor swaps for me, I know all the little tricks to save money :D

 

 

good thread :D

[heirfaus]

good thread :D

 

+1 :D

 

Okay so maybe an L16 would be a little on the small size... I think it would work fine with an L20 though. I even think it would run better on my L16 than my dual carbs do :D

 

Not to be a know it all....because I don't, but when the fuel map is set up for a motor, well think of it as the PH scale in Chemistry, which is 1-14 with 7 being nuetral, right?. When a fuel map is properly set to an engine size it is going to run at 7 on the PH scale. As conditions change the motor has a full swing up and down to enrich and lean the mixture to adjust to throttle position, ambient air temperature, motor temperature, and engine speed. This is the best case situation.

 

When you put a 2.4 liter fuel management on the 1.6 you have now moved the operating point to 1 or 2 because the fuel managment is trying to ALWAYS lean itself out. When it starts up it would try to run at 7 like normal, but it would get a huge enriched signal from the O2 sensor and the short and long term fuel trim will shift to approximately 1-2(generic numbers torepresent the change) to try and compensate by leaning it out.:eek: Now the problem is that instead of having your full range of operation you now have almost no room in one directiong(lean) and 12ish in the other(rich). So when you stomp on it up to 7K rpm(oops there's another problem. stock KA limiter) and then pull your foot off the gas and ride the RPMs down it stay's SUPER SUPER rich the whole time because it was WAY rich when you have it at wide open throttle and then it can't lean itself out on decel either because the short term fuel trim has nowhere to go:(

 

If it had a wide band O2 it would probably be a different story but because the narrow band O2 sensor is SO narrow the KA24 system would likely peg the long term fuel trim to the lean limit.

 

Yes, yes, in nerd speak...it doesn't work very well

 

And actually it would be AWESOME to hook a wide band O2 up to an L16 with the KA24 fuel managenment just to see the crazy readings. So if someone does it, hit me up and I'll bring the LC-1 and we can check it out...that would be fun :)

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[WAGON JON]

You know I was just turning on the computer because I was thinking about it and EFI isn't too cheap. Thanks for the correction Matt:)

 

Likewise there is much more to the KA swap than the motor. All the little things add up....Ask Luke who is finishing his...it caught him by surprise.

 

 

 

 

What manifold did you use? Does it bolt right onto an L head?

 

And actually if you can weld aluminum or know someone who can it's pretty cheap. I was going over it in my head and the manifold is the only tough part.

 

fuel pump from a 200sx(the year under the passenger seat): wrecking yard 15 bucks?

generic fuel filter: dirt cheap 15 bucks

KA24 t body: wrecking yard dirt cheap 10-25 bucks?

810 throttle cable: wrecking yard dirt cheap 5 bucks?

EI Dizzy: wrecking yard 15 bucks

Injectors: wrecking yard 40 bucks/rebuilt 100 bucks

Megasquirt and harness: 250

 

What did I miss?

 

Oh yeah Fast idle valve from 280zx: wrecking yard 5 bucks

 

 

 

 

Yeah the first post said he has 2 L16's so it would be a big difference, 16/24=.6666:eek:

 

The MAF sensor won't make up for it. When you finish up the MS and get to the programming you will see that the system needs a fuel map set up with VERY strict specs. If you change the size of the motor (like bore it larger) you'd have to go back and re-program a new fuel map. The sensors are like you eyes, nose, ears, but you have to have the correct brain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well it's 2 different things. I like electrical. I'd rather do electrical work than mod crossmembers and steerlinkage and pull and install motors. Icehouse doesn't seem to like electrical so he puts in a complete swap. I don't think either is better, one will just suit the specific person better.

 

The manifold I used was a 4 cylinder efi manifold that I bought at shasta one year for 150.00 dollaz It came from Austrilia, so the guy said. Icehouse can weld aluminum :D

[heirfaus]

The manifold I used was a 4 cylinder efi manifold that I bought at shasta one year for 150.00 dollaz It came from Austrilia, so the guy said. Icehouse can weld aluminum :D

 

Does it look like this? Because if it did, then it probably was from Australia. Early I said it was JDM, but more appropriately it's non USDM and as far as I know no CDM.

 

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[Duke]

Heirfaus, very nice explaination. I do have one question though. Couldn't you run smaller injectors with the L16. As far as I know (and I am NOT a EFI expert to say the least, hell I converted an EFI engine to carbs) the way the ECU meters how much fuel is dumped in is by how long the injectors are open. Therefore, if you run smaller injectors it would deliver less fuel for the same injector cycle. Just a theory.

 

BTW, didn't mean to jack the thread...

[72240z]

I been thinking about that dcoe injection idea for a long time now. Honestly It's prob the path I will take sometime soon. I wouldn't leave them stock but machine them down. Burned/busted up dcoes are so cheap, cannon manifold cut and welded onto a stock manifold base to retain stock injection options... Seems so cheap and easy.

 

Here is a set of dcoe's machined down.

[heirfaus]

Heirfaus, very nice explaination. I do have one question though. Couldn't you run smaller injectors with the L16. As far as I know (and I am NOT a EFI expert to say the least, hell I converted an EFI engine to carbs) the way the ECU meters how much fuel is dumped in is by how long the injectors are open. Therefore, if you run smaller injectors it would deliver less fuel for the same injector cycle. Just a theory.

 

BTW, didn't mean to jack the thread...

 

Well that only kinda works. That's kinda like JB welding the block back together when a rod goes through the side of it.

 

Ok here we go,

If you want to lower the amount of fuel by putting in smaller injectors you technically could, but as far as I can see, you'd have know the original programming of the KA ecu to get it exact the first time around. You'd have to know exactly how much extra fuel is being used and then offset the injector size down by that much. Theoretically you could keep swapping them out until you found a set that would work, BUT the real kick in the balls is you need to be able to watch the long term fuel trim when you swap the injectors out. You have to find a set that lets you run at that neutral 7. You could put a set in(and this is what alot of people do) and think it's all good, but really they don't know what they just changed. The only way around it is if you have a wide band. Because if you want 12:1 for max power then who cares if the fuel trim says you are hitting those numbers.

 

So the answer....yes, it's possible, but you have to have the equipment, possibly multiple injectors sets and patience. Also, I don't want to confuse you, the last big post I put up was about swapping the KA efi onto an L16 and the problems that would occur. Yes Duke there are multiple ways around that problem, but I was just responding to the proposed idea:D

 

The wonderful thing with Megasquirt is that you can watch everything happening. I have decent sized injectors in mine and I don't remember seeing my pulse width go past 75%(it's been a while since I have checked) which isn't optimal for my setup but will be great when I add the turbo. On the flip side my pulse width is SUPER low at idle and I have read this is not good for idle quality because it's a similar problem as i mentioned before. If it's so close to 0 it doesn't have much room to adjust. But like I said I seem to remember reading this about the pulse width and idle quality :)

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[heirfaus]

I been thinking about that dcoe injection idea for a long time now. Honestly It's prob the path I will take sometime soon. I wouldn't leave them stock but machine them down. Burned/busted up dcoes are so cheap, cannon manifold cut and welded onto a stock manifold base to retain stock injection options... Seems so cheap and easy.

 

Here is a set of dcoe's machined down.

 

 

 

 

These would be SWEET on Bryon's manifold, if only he made a 6 cylinder version for you :(

[jesusno2]

EFI sucks me gets cornfused to easy! Lol! In all reality if your not real tech savy like me with all this computer shit the ka 240sx setup is realitivley easy (when it works!!) To swap. I'm a carb guy I love carbs. I'm slowly learning this fisrt gen style efi stuff one bad sensor at a time! It does cost a hell of a lot more that's for sure I don't care what anyone says!

[wingnut]

WOW! I knew I found the right place!

I don't have the car yet and now am really excited to get it tucked away in my shop.

Where to start? The KA needs to be rebuilt. It can wait untill after I get to beat on the car for awhile. I am part of the instant gratification generation and don't want to wait forever to play!

The EFI project is great fun. It will cost money. OK! More importantly it allows me to meet people. HELLO PEOPLE:D. In the process I learn something, even better.

EFI is the driveability godsend. Especially when you add turbo's. Eventually that's where I will be. To be able to tinker with fuel and timing maps makes me salivate. I have never done it before and can't wait to learn.

I have an 87 Mustang, so does every one else thats why I want to play with the 510. Alot of the people in the performance 510 world have a KA or SR. Thats why I want an L16. I know I'm nuts. I realize it will never make huge power but it will be different. It's us crazy people that make life interesting.:lol:.

I have never seen the Mega Squirt system and need to get more informed.

I am currently a FAST and ACCEL dist. Reading up on the stuff I can do with them is way too fun. Wide band O2 is the only way to go. EFI does bring power to the equation. Carbs are an exercise in sacrifice and comprimise. max HP carbs work fine. Electronic Fuel injection allows many times more tuning abilities than a low and hi speed jet stuck in a venturi. While you may not gain top end HP numbers you will gain mid range and low rpm hp. Thats where most of us drive anyway. Better mileage is also a great side benefit.

I'll get some pics up this weekend. I promise!

Thanks again for the help .........Art

[Icehouse]

Not to be a know it all....because I don't, but when the fuel map is set up for a motor, well think of it as the PH scale in Chemistry, which is 1-14 with 7 being nuetral, right?. When a fuel map is properly set to an engine size it is going to run at 7 on the PH scale. As conditions change the motor has a full swing up and down to enrich and lean the mixture to adjust to throttle position, ambient air temperature, motor temperature, and engine speed. This is the best case situation.

 

When you put a 2.4 liter fuel management on the 1.6 you have now moved the operating point to 1 or 2 because the fuel managment is trying to ALWAYS lean itself out. When it starts up it would try to run at 7 like normal, but it would get a huge enriched signal from the O2 sensor and the short and long term fuel trim will shift to approximately 1-2(generic numbers torepresent the change) to try and compensate by leaning it out.:eek: Now the problem is that instead of having your full range of operation you now have almost no room in one directiong(lean) and 12ish in the other(rich). So when you stomp on it up to 7K rpm(oops there's another problem. stock KA limiter) and then pull your foot off the gas and ride the RPMs down it stay's SUPER SUPER rich the whole time because it was WAY rich when you have it at wide open throttle and then it can't lean itself out on decel either because the short term fuel trim has nowhere to go:(

 

If it had a wide band O2 it would probably be a different story but because the narrow band O2 sensor is SO narrow the KA24 system would likely peg the long term fuel trim to the lean limit.

 

Yes, yes, in nerd speak...it doesn't work very well

 

And actually it would be AWESOME to hook a wide band O2 up to an L16 with the KA24 fuel managenment just to see the crazy readings. So if someone does it, hit me up and I'll bring the LC-1 and we can check it out...that would be fun :)

 

 

I agree, I guess my main point was more it would work better than carbs, but I was thinking more on an L20 not an L16. I think with a little tweeking it would work pretty good compared to carbs. Overall MS would be a way better route!!!! HHHMMM 8bit ECU vs. Megasquirts 24mhz :D

 

I had a buddy who put KA EFI on his L20 then turboed it, he never got the bugs worked out and then sold it. I always wanted to try an NA version. Hell even the CA18DE out of a Pulsar may work better. Or the CA16DE EFI. Since the VE of the heads is going to be different no matter what it's never going to be perfect but it would be fun to do :D There isn't enough time in the day :D

[slodat]

I'm not trying to knock anyone's L motor EFI project...I guess I just don't understand :D You have to add/modify a bunch of stuff on the L motor, plus on top of that the normal stuff you'd have to add/modify for a KA install.

 

I'm skipping the L series EFI for a KA swap :D

 

So.. I have a custom L series EFI intake manifold and fuel rail for sale. PM with offers..

 

[wingnut]

I like the long runners on that manifold. What is the rpm range of the L16

[Icehouse]

I'm skipping the L series EFI for a KA swap :D

 

So.. I have a custom L series EFI intake manifold and fuel rail for sale. PM with offers..

 

 

What!!!! That's not right Steve! :D

[heirfaus]

I like the long runners on that manifold. What is the rpm range of the L16

 

The RPM range is whatever you want it to be. If stock, them probably bursts to 7K or 7.5K if it's in good shape. If you actually go through it and build it right then probably 9k. Kieth Laws race prepped L20 runs to 8500 like a champ religiously.

 

Hey Art,

 

I am like you, I like something original. After looking at the total bill so far I wish I would have put in an SR, BUT I really like having a more original motor. If you like the L series motor then I have to suggest the LZ22(L head on a Z22 block, there's no denying displacement) Or just upgrading to the L20(it's a very tough motor). Now I have to appease sensibility and say that if you want good power you should swap in a KA or an SR, because a L motor won't compete unless you turbo it. But if you want originaly and classic, then go for a bigger L motor. You will be much more satisfied than compared to the small output of the L16. Although it would be a good idea to thrash on the L16 for while and learn the L motors.

 

Also you can build an EFI system for the L16 using Megasquirt and then you can swap to a L20 or LZ22 later and all you have to do is spend 15 minutes to program a new fuel map and a few hours swapping in the motor and your back on the road....it's just so badass:cool:

 

I'm not sure what the runner diameter is on Slodat's manifold, but if it's 1.38 or larger, I would buy it from him. Keep in mind you'd have to rig up a fuel rail and figure out how to mount it. My JDM manifold only has 1.25" runners and I would have tossed it by now if I was staying NA, but I think the turbo will take care of some of the problem.

 

Later,

Chris

[heirfaus]

EFI is the driveability godsend. Especially when you add turbo's. Eventually that's where I will be.

 

Both Byron510 and myself are building LZ22ET motors right now. We both have the Z22 block with L20b U60 head. He is using electromotive, I think, I'm using Megasquirt. I'm sure his will turn out WAY better, that guy is a god of building custom parts. Anyway I like the classic look of the L series motor and the Z22 block which requires very little modding is just a no brainer. He is running 8:1 I think and I'm at 8.3:1. They will make great torque and the turbo will make great top end hp.:D

 

I agree, I guess my main point was more it would work better than carbs, but I was thinking more on an L20 not an L16. I think with a little tweeking it would work pretty good compared to carbs. Overall MS would be a way better route!!!! HHHMMM 8bit ECU vs. Megasquirts 24mhz :D

 

I had a buddy who put KA EFI on his L20 then turboed it, he never got the bugs worked out and then sold it. I always wanted to try an NA version. Hell even the CA18DE out of a Pulsar may work better. Or the CA16DE EFI. Since the VE of the heads is going to be different no matter what it's never going to be perfect but it would be fun to do :D There isn't enough time in the day :D

 

Good idea, I think the CA EFI would work WAY better, I never thought of that. I am pretty sure that the system would be able to compensate for the difference in the VE, and having it so much closer to the original displacement seems like it would work well. Also, isn't the CA redline at 7K? So out of the box you could really push an L16.:D

 

But I have to admit, even though I have the option, I never modified my spark maps, because I didn't want to put the effort into tuning it when I'm switching motors soon...but I can't way. Customizability is so righteous.

Edited March 11, 2009 by heirfaus

[slodat]

I'm not sure what the runner diameter is on Slodat's manifold, but if it's 1.38 or larger, I would buy it from him. Keep in mind you'd have to rig up a fuel rail and figure out how to mount it.

I'll double check tomorrow, but I believe the runners are 1.5" ID. They are very long. It comes with a fuel rail already drilled for o-ring style injectors.

 

What!!!! That's not right Steve! :D

 

It's time!

[heirfaus]

Hey Steve,

 

 

What's the throttle body that is meant to be used on that manifold?

 

 

Chris

[slodat]

Q45 it seems. I was going to make a plate to mount a KA24E 60mm throttle body.

[heirfaus]

Q45 it seems. I was going to make a plate to mount a KA24E 60mm throttle body.

 

Yeah an adapter plate would be necessary because the q45 is too large for an L motor.

[slodat]

I agree. The huge plenum is nice however...

[heirfaus]

Dude the first thing I would do is cut off the plenum, install some air horns and have someone weld the plenum back on. Definitely nice that the plenum could accommodate that.

 

 

Dude Art,

 

I apologize, I just realized this is in the projects section and you were probably going to put your progress and pics here. So sorry for the thread high jack. I just saw the EFI swap and went crazy:blink:

 

Chris

[Icehouse]

Dude the first thing I would do is cut off the plenum, install some air horns and have someone weld the plenum back on. Definitely nice that the plenum could accommodate that.

 

Well I know this is hear say but a buddy of mine spends zillions on his Evo, he claims that the company that made his manifold stopped putting air horns it them because it was messing with the way it went from suction to boost. He went as far as to get there new one.... Who knows I just found it ironic. He did dyno 415 to the wheels with PERFECT 12.5 to 1 through the whole RPM rang.

 

Just saying :D

 

 

 

Dude Art,

 

I apologize, I just realized this is in the projects section and you were probably going to put your progress and pics here. So sorry for the thread high jack. I just saw the EFI swap and went crazy:blink:

 

Chris

 

 

I didn't realize that either!!! Someone needs to move some posts to a new EFI thread :D

[heirfaus]

Well I know this is hear say but a buddy of mine spends zillions on his Evo, he claims that the company that made his manifold stopped putting air horns it them because it was messing with the way it went from suction to boost. He went as far as to get there new one.... Who knows I just found it ironic. He did dyno 415 to the wheels with PERFECT 12.5 to 1 through the whole RPM rang.

 

Just saying :D

 

 

Oh, I was miss leading I guess. I was more talking from a NA perspective, like Art. I would have them bolt on and then if he/someone goes turbo you could remove them if you wanted to. I actually don't know how air horns would perform on a turbo motor. In my mind I can't really see how they would take away driveability, but I have this funny feeling something wouldn't be optimal. I would love to actually understand how it would affect things, but I wouldn't put them on a turbo until I actually understood how they affect it.

[Icehouse]

Oh, I was miss leading I guess. I was more talking from a NA perspective, like Art. I would have them bolt on and then if he/someone goes turbo you could remove them if you wanted to. I actually don't know how air horns would perform on a turbo motor. In my mind I can't really see how they would take away driveability, but I have this funny feeling something wouldn't be optimal. I would love to actually understand how it would affect things, but I wouldn't put them on a turbo until I actually understood how they affect it.

 

 

Yeah I feel the same way about installing them in a custom mani for a turbo engine. The whole reason he told me about them was because I was talking about rebuilding my ZX custom 4 cylinder mani. I hate questions that are ton's of work to actually test :(

 

If Art ends up with MS he should do throttle bodies!! :D If I was dead set on NA I would!