Ford 9” Idea Kicking around

[Soundline]

I’m going down the “what should I do” path with all of this stupid EPA crap going on in the US.  The idea I’m kicking around is a KA24E swap with cams and the Pandem wide body kit.

 

Since my truck, a 1974 Datsun 620, wasn’t EPA tested unit I can do as I please.  I’m tossing around the idea of mild race truck.  I’m curious if any of you have experience with swapping in a shortened Ford 9” rear end.  I fully realize this will change the bolt pattern, but I don’t really like the 6x5.5 options.  I can’t seem to find any way to upgrade the stock differential and rear axels without swapping.

 

I'm very open to changing things around to make this easier.  

[Lockleaf]

Why ford 9 inch specifically?  That is a massive axle.   Seems like it will introduce a ton of unnecessary load by being overkill.  Ford 8.8, even though the ring gear is only a little smaller, is a much smaller axle, and very easy to narrow, and has disc brakes and LSD options.

Have you considered Rodeo/Passport dana 44?  Disc brakes, buildable to handle any power that KAE is likely to make, plenty of LSD options, relatively narrow, and it does offer the stock lug pattern.  Or wagoneer dana 44 if you want to stay drum?

[datzenmike]

The H-190 is good to 300 ft lbs torque. It isn't going to brake easily unless abused. There is no easy or cheap LSD for it. KAs are not that powerful to need larger than an H-190.

 

If you want around a 9" get a D21 Hardbody (leaf spring) WD21 Pathfinder (coil) V6 axle. Comes in 4.375 and 4.625 4 pinion clutch LSDs and rear disc brakes too. If you want a 3.90 pinion/crown from a 4 cylinder truck could be swapped in. The H233 is larger than 9", but has the correct 6 bolt pattern. Needs narrowing also. You don't like the 6 bolt?? It's easier to run 5s on the back and 6s on the front?? Easier to change the fronts to matching 5s?? then find rims for it that work????? Keep it simple.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Toyota

Toyota

Toyota

 

Cheap, easy to find, many aftermarket parts available, come in different widths.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Lockleaf said:

Why ford 9 inch specifically?  That is a massive axle.  

 

My thought exactly.  Was at Mr Bigs a while back and saw the 9" he's got for his truck.  It is HUGE.  He's got a full out FJ motor, so it's not all that crazy for his application, but seems way overkill for a KA swap..

[Lockleaf]

Stoff is right.  I should have started with the Toyota options.

[Soundline]

I theorized the 9” strictly due to my limited experience with rear ends. I’m most familiar with the Ford 9”, which it was at the top of my list. 
 

I live in the snowy, desert part of the “evergreen state” so an LSD makes my life easier in the event I need to drive it.

 

I think Stoff or Mike are better paths.  I didn’t think about stuffing the same rear that’s under my 89’ Toyota Pickup under there to permit cross utilization of replacement parts.  If I did that I’d REALLY want a 22RE swap in there....  Since I’ve spent far too much time elbow deep in them.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

The 22RE is where I draw the line.

 

I don't know how many Toyotas I've had, and my '57 Land Rover even has an '89 22RE under its hood, but given the choice between the RE and the KA, hands down KA for the win.

 

Unless you wanted to build a crawler, Then the 22RE is the clear choice.

[Lockleaf]

Total thread jack here, but Stoff, I'm curious why the KA for street vs RE for crawling distinction?

 

[Soundline]

The 89’ 22RE with Marlin Crawler HD W56C and their HD single stick transfer case is perfect for what I do with it. I really need to do a better locker in the rear of mine after it’s back together.

 

Once I finish the body work I’ll get back to the mechanical aspects of the build. Thanks for the help guys and I’ll cross the Ford off the list.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

2 hours ago, Lockleaf said:

Total thread jack here, but Stoff, I'm curious why the KA for street vs RE for crawling distinction?

 

22REs are good at making torque, but are not great powerhouses, even when built. The KA is great at building power. I've built dozens of KAs and about a dozen 22REs and my experience has taught me that the 22RE will run forever with little maintenance, but they just aint that fun to drive.

 

Again, I've got a 22RE in my '57 Land Rover, so I'm not a hater.

[datzenmike]

I think they are like the Z series, kind of under powered and like an old Bug engine will not make enough power to hurt itself and last forever.

[Soundline]

53 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

22REs are good at making torque, but are not great powerhouses, even when built. The KA is great at building power. I've built dozens of KAs and about a dozen 22REs and my experience has taught me that the 22RE will run forever with little maintenance, but they just aint that fun to drive.

 

Again, I've got a 22RE in my '57 Land Rover, so I'm not a hater.

Pics of the Rover or it didn’t happen. 
 

My pickup is fun to drive, you just need to pick your “road” very carefully.  It is distinctly slow...  If I were trying to copy Redeye’s 4x4 build I’d have started with the 22RE and basically stuffed an early 80’s Toyota setup into it. 
 

I was pulled over once in the Toyota and the Ofc claimed he paced me at 80...  I literally laughed at him. That thing wouldn’t do 80 if you shoved it out of the back of a C-17 at 30,000 ft.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

My Rover will cruise at 80, but I've got 5.29s in the diffs. That helps a lot.

 

If there were more transmission options for the Nissan motors, they might be a strong candidate for off road, but the only way to get good t-case gearing or a double t-case with a Nissan motor is... I've never really figured that out.

[datzenmike]

Two T-100s end to end on their sides.  4.3 overall in Lo. Only heard of it being done. Even with a shorty 26" 5 speed there isn't much room for the rear driveshaft. T-100s were used with the Z24 (100 hp?) and are reputed to make a lot of noise if abused. 'Course this could be 3rd owner view of 2wd owner not looking after the fluids.

[Soundline]

All the years I spent on trails and in the rocks I’ve maybe seen 5 Nissans.  Two were Xterra’s, two Frontiers and an old Patrol.  
 

Did some digging in the H-190 and I stumbled across this.  I have no affiliation with Phantom Grip, but I’m interested to see if any of you have seen this?
 

https://phantomgrip.com/shop/datsun-limited-slip-lsd-conversion-kit/datsunnissan-d21-hardbody-truck-fits-h190-diffs-japanchilechina/

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Those types of LSD are not strong and can put too much side loading on the side gears, causing premature wear. The reason they are cheap is because they suck.

 

Here in rock crawling country, if you don't have dual t-cases (or a re-geared single case) you need 40" tires to be able to hit the trail without beating yourself up. Sure, there are guys who run the Rubicon with stock t-case gears and small tires, but they do it maybe once a year and the trucks get beat to shit.

[thisismatt]

Do a 10" winters quick change just for that extra wtf 😂

[Soundline]

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Those types of LSD are not strong and can put too much side loading on the side gears, causing premature wear. The reason they are cheap is because they suck.

 

Here in rock crawling country, if you don't have dual t-cases (or a re-geared single case) you need 40" tires to be able to hit the trail without beating yourself up. Sure, there are guys who run the Rubicon with stock t-case gears and small tires, but they do it maybe once a year and the trucks get beat to shit.

What lsd do you recommend for the Toyota Axels?  I’ve been running a Yukon mechanical LSD for years... and it seems fine.  I don’t get into the rocks much after breaking my back and that last gunshot wound so I just run 32” tires and take it easy.

 

For the Datsun I’ll be scaling back the plan.  I’ll be waiting to see about the epa rulings before making any changes to the engine 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Any of the name brand LSD carriers are good, but I like the Detroit Tru-Trac best. Last I checked, they were about $550.

 

Why are you concerned with the EPA? Your truck is old enough to be exempt, isn't it? It would be here in CA.

[Soundline]

The EPA has changed their interpretations on “modifying vehicles”.  When I was a cop our head of the WA State Patrol teamed up with the EPA in 2010 to stop cars from killing polar bears and sinking Miami into the ocean. There were a couple troopers who had EPA enforcement abilities and they crushed any car they found in violation.

 

I retired in 2015, but I still have a few friends in WSP, one of them advised me that drive by emissions checks will be installed later this year.  It looks kind of like a streetlight and it has a camera on it.  As it is a criminal offense to modify any EPA tested system in anyway, the “deputized’ troopers will just send you the fines and start the civil forfeiture of your vehicle if you fail.

 

The CARB testing is a State Law in CA, but failing it is actually a Federal Offense that has had limited enforcement.  CA opted to make it a civil citation to increase compliance and to gain state revenue off testing and “fining” violators.  In WA we have several counties that kinda/sorta adopted CARB, but I don’t live in one of those.

 

With the rollout of these lights that determine your emissions, and the automatic assignment of criminal activity for failing to maintain your EPA mandated equipment I want to avoid the headache.  
 

Here’s a link to the ones my buddy at the state patrol said they’re calibrating for installation.  He believes that this is the enforcement tool they’ll use to push electric cars. 

 

https://www.heatremotesensing.com

[Soundline]

Here’s a list of enforcements they started taking over the last few years building up to this, from June 2020.

 

They went after a shop I’m affiliated with for allegedly installing a test pipe to do a dyno tune of a car. 
 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/01/14/epa-launches-crackdown-on-emissions-defeat-device-makers

[datzenmike]

I think California crushed cars if caught street racing. This ain't gonna happen. What if your car, through no fault of your own, has an emissions failure??? They're going to fine you and come crush your car. Not!!! Where's the due process? Where's the warning and chance to fix? As stated this will never happen.

 

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/01/14/epa-launches-crackdown-on-emissions-defeat-device-makers

 

Serves them right. Said so many many times. Modifying and or deleting emissions is wrong if there is a chance of being held accountable for it. And you're worried about a 620?????

 

 

[frankendat]

3 hours ago, datzenmike said:

I think California crushed cars if caught street racing. This ain't gonna happen. What if your car, through no fault of your own, has an emissions failure??? They're going to fine you and come crush your car. Not!!! Where's the due process? Where's the warning and chance to fix? As stated this will never happen.

 

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/01/14/epa-launches-crackdown-on-emissions-defeat-device-makers

 

Serves them right. Said so many many times. Modifying and or deleting emissions is wrong if there is a chance of being held accountable for it. And you're worried about a 620?????

 

 

Democrats do not care about "Due process" it's part of that outdated Constitution thing. The same rationale as "redflag" laws that demand "relinquishment" of all firearms, upon accusation of specific crimes, without trial. Even if acquitted of the crime that initiated firearm relinquishment, firearms will be destroyed if not registered, with the excuse that ownership cannot be proven. This is the reality in California and Democrats view California as a template for the United States.

[GT2]

I vote for the 8.8 ford.

Easy to shorten, light weight, wide range of ratios available, lot of lsd's available.

Easy to find in the wrecking yard.