How dumb can I be?

[William Dupree]

I've had my 260Z since I drove it off the dealer's floor. I saved and sweated so I could get it, because at that time you basically took what Datsun had and paid what they wanted. I have loved this car and in and around 2015 it was time to refresh the car. It the car has lived in successive garages and had maintained all the services. But I am not a professional and I looked through Craig's List for an individual to restore/refresh the car. It of course had minimal rust which I had removed, and stripped and sealed the body. I sent the engine off to get hardened valve guides and a general checkup. Spending what I originally paid for the car this jackleg mechanic took me to the worst experience a car owner could imagine. We went back and forth with price spanning 4 years and 20000 dollars. I pretty much monitored the progress but I had a personal accident which halted the shop visits. That is when Jeckel turned to Hyde and this guy tried to up the money we had a verbal agreement about. Here is where I found out how dumb I had been. Not that my wife did not tell me to get a contract when the mechanic refused I should have walked away, but NO now stupid joined dumb to cost me tens of thousand of dollars. This is a precautionary tale to those who might even think about what is safe when giving up your money. Cover your butt with paper. My car is still in the garage in a roller condition with axillary parts stored in boxes. I don't know if I will ever get it finished but I thought it might help others. I will not mention his name as he has moved on after cashing the last check and pushing the car to the street. Watch out and beware, of course my wife was right.

 

 

[MikeRL411]

Old Hollywood axiom "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on."

[yenpit]

I hate stories like this & feel for you! 🙄 😒 I have seen many "horrible experiences" in my 40 years of classic cars & working in the classic car parts industry.  The last shop where I worked for 8 years, specialized in Z cars.  We would get lots of calls for work, offer up a VERY ROUGH ESTIMATE, most would balk & look elsewhere.  Some of those guys would end up in a similar situation as you.  My point is, it is rare to find a really good mechanic/restorer advertising in a newspaper, on craigslist etc.  They are there for a reason!  Word of mouth & restored cars to prove it are the keys to getting good work!!

 

Good to great restoration work is extremely expensive!  We would start at $20k+++++++++++ to simply go thru the fuel system & hydraulics............minumum!  A full on restoration could easily reach $60-80k+++++++, mostly depending on the ACTUAL condition of the car.  That shop where I worked, just had a guy bring in a 1970 240Z "Series 1" that he paid around $10k for a few years back.  HE told us it was a good solid car.  They agreed to a $60-80k restoration.  Once the car was stripped down for media blasting, it reared its grossly ugly head!!  It was a rotted midwest car that had been HORRIBLY restored, with horrible patch welding & TONS of bondo!!  They had to reassess & told the guy it would take another $20k minimum in metal work.  Instead, I found him a much better rolling body shell with title for $3500.............he bought it, has not picked it up yet!!  Fingers crossed!!

 

PS I found my cousin an exact copy of the 1974 260Z that he had bought NEW in Illinois!  This car has 43k original miles, CA car, same year, same early small bumpers, same color & SAME ALUMINUM SLOT MAG WHEELS!  He bought the car for $45k, had us go thru the fuel & hydraulic systems for reliability & loves it!!  

[thisismatt]

Why wouldn't you name him? Sounds like an Al aka denmarkboy story...

[datzenmike]

Talk about rearing an ugly head.

[kathrynobrien]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:35 AM, William Dupree said:

I've had my 260Z since I drove it off the dealer's floor. I saved and sweated so I could get it, because at that time you basically took what Datsun had and paid what they wanted. I have loved this car and in and around 2015 it was time to refresh the car. It the car has lived in successive garages and had maintained all the services. But I am not a professional and I looked through Craig's List for an individual to restore/refresh the car. It of course had minimal rust which I had removed, and stripped and sealed the body. I sent the engine off to get hardened valve guides and a general checkup. Spending what I originally paid for the car this jackleg mechanic took me to the worst experience a car owner could imagine. We went back and forth with price spanning 4 years and 20000 dollars. I pretty much monitored the progress but I had a personal accident which halted the shop visits. That is when Jeckel turned to Hyde and this guy tried to up the money we had a verbal agreement about. Here is where I found out how dumb I had been. Not that my wife did not tell me to get a contract when the mechanic refused I should have walked away, but NO now stupid joined dumb to cost me tens of thousand of dollars. This is a precautionary tale to those who might even think about what is safe when giving up your money. Cover your butt with paper. My car is still in the garage in a roller condition with axillary parts stored in boxes. I don't know if I will ever get it finished but I thought it might help others in geometry dash lite. I will not mention his name as he has moved on after cashing the last check and pushing the car to the street. Watch out and beware, of course my wife was right.

 

 

I also used to have the same experience haha🤣

[datzenmike]

If at all possible learn to work on your own Datsun. If you can't, the next best thing is to know more about what's wrong that your mechanic and tell him what you want done. Worst is to know nothing about how they work, then you are at the mercy of the mechanic you choose.

 

Get a factory service manual (FSM) and leave in the bathroom and read it every morning. Learn how to replace simple ignition parts and do an oil change. How to check your oil, change your oil and the filter. Change the air filter. Buy a set of metric sockets and a ratchet and other tools as needed and you're ready to check and set the valve lash. One thing leads to another. The FSM? they're about $30 on line and the first time you use it it more than pays for itself. What does a mechanic charge these days. $80-$100 I really don't know. I have owned Datsuns for way over 40 years and they were never in a garage.

[Ranman72]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:35 PM, William Dupree said:

I've had my 260Z since I drove it off the dealer's floor. I saved and sweated so I could get it, because at that time you basically took what Datsun had and paid what they wanted. I have loved this car and in and around 2015 it was time to refresh the car. It the car has lived in successive garages and had maintained all the services. But I am not a professional and I looked through Craig's List for an individual to restore/refresh the car. It of course had minimal rust which I had removed, and stripped and sealed the body. I sent the engine off to get hardened valve guides and a general checkup. Spending what I originally paid for the car this jackleg mechanic took me to the worst experience a car owner could imagine. We went back and forth with price spanning 4 years and 20000 dollars. I pretty much monitored the progress but I had a personal accident which halted the shop visits. That is when Jeckel turned to Hyde and this guy tried to up the money we had a verbal agreement about. Here is where I found out how dumb I had been. Not that my wife did not tell me to get a contract when the mechanic refused I should have walked away, but NO now stupid joined dumb to cost me tens of thousand of dollars. This is a precautionary tale to those who might even think about what is safe when giving up your money. Cover your butt with paper. My car is still in the garage in a roller condition with axillary parts stored in boxes. I don't know if I will ever get it finished but I thought it might help others. I will not mention his name as he has moved on after cashing the last check and pushing the car to the street. Watch out and beware, of course my wife was right.

 

 

when you get fucked by someone in the wrong way 

you will do everyone a good service to out the person or company 

BECAUSE 

IF THEY DO IT ONCE THEY WILL DO IT AGAIN and you will save others your pain and financial loss

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

In no way am I defending the dishonest mechanic, but I will add that there is no crystal ball for this type of work. Most times we don't know the extent of the work until we git into it. And at that point, the client then feels like he's being held hostage to the repairs with nowhere else to go.

 

This last part is many times true. There aren't many shops that will do this kind of general restoration work. For the classic car owner, tracking down someone who can do the repairs is a process in itself.

 

If anything, this is a cautionary tale to the young mechanic just starting out on his own. I certainly have been in situations like this and years of experience has made me wary of anyone wanting to restore a car or truck. My neighbor flagged me down the other day and asked if I could "restore" her family Jeep that has been sitting for many years. I must have unintentionally rolled my eyes or something because she asked "what, you don't want to do this kind of work?" It's not that I don't like to do it. It's that these jobs usually ending up costing more than if they went out and bought a good running vehicle instead of repairing their old one. I know that and I try at every turn to steer clients away from doing things they want vs things the vehicle needs. Need vs want. That's my mantra. Do you need new paint? Nobody needs paint. But you do need it to run, drive, turn and stop. If I can talk you into resurrecting an old vehicle vs restoring it, I know you will be happier in the long run.

 

But in most cases, the client ignores that advice.

 

So yeah, I've been in those situations and have learned from them. Now when someone contacts me to talk about vehicle restoration, I am very careful to explain need vs want, and the unkowns, and explain that I work on a time and materials basis. There is no book that will tell me how long a job will take so there is no way I will ever tell them it will cost a set amount. This is so very different from new car repairs, where there is a book that tells you how long it takes. No such thing for a 50 year old car.

 

Ironically, one major lesson I have learned over the years is that no matter what the vehicle is, it takes between 200 and 300 hours to assemble. Period. That's after all the metal repairs, all the drivetrain components have been rebuilt. After the body is back from the paint shop. That's a pile of finished parts that needs to get put together into a completely restored vehicle. So if you are restoring a car that will be worth $15k when it's finished, it's not worth pursuing. You may as well start with a car that is going to be worth the money you put into it.

 

Another modern phenomenon is that people now days expect the car to be "worth it". When I was a kid, going to car shows with my dad, everyone knew that restoring a car was akin to burning a pile of cash in the BBQ pit.

 

Sorry, you guys just became my Tuesday morning therapy session. I can go to work feeling better now that I got it off my chest.

[datzenmike]

Family members are the worst. Cheap bastards expect it to be simple and free. It's never fixed right. Often I would just tell them what it needed and start running away.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

18 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Family members are the worst. Cheap bastards expect it to be simple and free. It's never fixed right. Often I would just tell them what it needed and start running away.

Family and friends discount. Isn't that already taken?

 

A couple years ago a good friend talked me into a simple cab swap job. We took a '89 K30 dually flatbed and swapped a '63 Chevy cab onto it. There are hack guys who could have done the job in a weekend, but doing it right, removing old body mounts and welding up new ones, connecting the column and steering box, shifter, pedals, electrical, radiator, etc, the job took three and a half weeks. That was with zero work done to pretty it up. The truck came out beautifully, and is a useful tool for him, but man, try explaining that to your average Joe, that it would cost $16K-$20K for that "simple cab swap".

 

I charged him nothing.

 

Let's see if I have any pics. Yep, I do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[datzenmike]

Were they called an Apache? or something.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yeah, the Apache was a run from like 58-61 or thereabouts. Great looking truck, especially the ugly duckling 1960 with the two hood humps.

[EDM620]

I'm not a mechanic, just a car crazy guy who's twisted his own wrenches since shortly after birth. I still get asked by strangers, coworkers and neighbors if I would do some repairs on thier whatever. I just tell them I only work on my own stuff. If a friend wants help doing his repairs, then I act as his boss and tell him what to do.

 

Good buddies who DO twist thier own wrenches I'm happy to help out. Many guys here on this forum I think I could work alongside, but that's pure speculation.

[4perrev]

23 hours ago, EDM620 said:

I'm not a mechanic, just a car crazy guy who's twisted his own wrenches since shortly after birth. I still get asked by strangers, coworkers and neighbors if I would do some repairs on thier whatever. I just tell them I only work on my own stuff. If a friend wants help doing his repairs, then I act as his boss and tell him what to do.

 

Good buddies who DO twist thier own wrenches I'm happy to help out. Many guys here on this forum I think I could work alongside, but that's pure speculation.

Well said EDM. I am with you on this one. Too many times I have been asked to do engine swaps, painting, or other serious overhauls. I always say that I will assist but not do it for them. 

[RetroRocket]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:01 PM, datzenmike said:

If at all possible learn to work on your own Datsun. If you can't, the next best thing is to know more about what's wrong that your mechanic and tell him what you want done. Worst is to know nothing about how they work, then you are at the mercy of the mechanic you choose.

 

Get a factory service manual (FSM) and leave in the bathroom and read it every morning. Learn how to replace simple ignition parts and do an oil change. How to check your oil, change your oil and the filter. Change the air filter. Buy a set of metric sockets and a ratchet and other tools as needed and you're ready to check and set the valve lash. One thing leads to another. The FSM? they're about $30 on line and the first time you use it it more than pays for itself. What does a mechanic charge these days. $80-$100 I really don't know. I have owned Datsuns for way over 40 years and they were never in a garage.

That's good advice. Plus getting to the crux of a trouble shoot takes you on a journey.

Once you know how something works: you know how to fix it (or modify it.).

[RetroRocket]

I bought a car a year ago from an individual who had a similar story. The car had been moved around town from body shop, to engine transplant, to different body shop........and so on and then the last guy said he had a lien on the car! So he had to do a legal battle.

 

It was a somewhat hilarious story, even the seller thought so. He had a chance to be on 'Judge Judy' with his case but he'd had enough of it.

It is in a ready-to-paint condition (or ready to wrap?). 1953 Studebaker Starliner Coupe (a Loewy design coupe).

I always wanted one ever since I lived in South Bend, Indiana [where the main Studebaker plant was and I was a kid].

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

A friend of mine is going through legal battles with the guy who built the motor for his classic Cherokee. The motor has been in and out of the truck four times now and the guy was finally ordered by a judge to make it right or give the money back. My friend posted a funny video of the ass hat working in the background on the Cherokee. Unbeknownst to the guy.

 

I still defend my position. One can't know everything, and it takes two people to have a disagreement. Managing expectations is the second conversation I have with a new potential client.

[yenpit]

On 7/11/2023 at 4:17 PM, yenpit said:

I hate stories like this & feel for you! 🙄 😒 I have seen many "horrible experiences" in my 40 years of classic cars & working in the classic car parts industry.  The last shop where I worked for 8 years, specialized in Z cars.  We would get lots of calls for work, offer up a VERY ROUGH ESTIMATE, most would balk & look elsewhere.  Some of those guys would end up in a similar situation as you.  My point is, it is rare to find a really good mechanic/restorer advertising in a newspaper, on craigslist etc.  They are there for a reason!  Word of mouth & restored cars to prove it are the keys to getting good work!!

 

Good to great restoration work is extremely expensive!  We would start at $20k+++++++++++ to simply go thru the fuel system & hydraulics............minumum!  A full on restoration could easily reach $60-80k+++++++, mostly depending on the ACTUAL condition of the car.  That shop where I worked, just had a guy bring in a 1970 240Z "Series 1" that he paid around $10k for a few years back.  HE told us it was a good solid car.  They agreed to a $60-80k restoration.  Once the car was stripped down for media blasting, it reared its grossly ugly head!!  It was a rotted midwest car that had been HORRIBLY restored, with horrible patch welding & TONS of bondo!!  They had to reassess & told the guy it would take another $20k minimum in metal work.  Instead, I found him a much better rolling body shell with title for $3500.............he bought it, has not picked it up yet!!  Fingers crossed!!

 

PS I found my cousin an exact copy of the 1974 260Z that he had bought NEW in Illinois!  This car has 43k original miles, CA car, same year, same early small bumpers, same color & SAME ALUMINUM SLOT MAG WHEELS!  He bought the car for $45k, had us go thru the fuel & hydraulic systems for reliability & loves it!!  

 

PS the acquired "rolling shell" turned out to be a CA AZ car, that ended up in Iowa.....................thankfully never driven in the snow/salt!!  The shell needs MINIMAL metal work & minimal body damage repair.  Saved the guy at least $15k!!  Hey, anybody interested in a completely stripped down, rotten patched up, 1970 240Z "Series 1" fully media blasted, with title & vin tags?  Willing to make a deal!!!!!!!!!! 😉

[yenpit]

On 8/31/2024 at 12:15 PM, RetroRocket said:

I bought a car a year ago from an individual who had a similar story. The car had been moved around town from body shop, to engine transplant, to different body shop........and so on and then the last guy said he had a lien on the car! So he had to do a legal battle.

 

It was a somewhat hilarious story, even the seller thought so. He had a chance to be on 'Judge Judy' with his case but he'd had enough of it.

It is in a ready-to-paint condition (or ready to wrap?). 1953 Studebaker Starliner Coupe (a Loewy design coupe).

I always wanted one ever since I lived in South Bend, Indiana [where the main Studebaker plant was and I was a kid].

 

 

I've been to one of the old Studebaker plants in South Bend, back in the 1990's!  I worked in British parts, out of Kalamazoo, had an MG/Triumph shop customer, that rented the building for storage!  On a road trip, I stopped in for a visit & got the tour!! 😎 

[EDM620]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:07 AM, yenpit said:

I've been to one of the old Studebaker plants in South Bend, back in the 1990's!  I worked in British parts, out of Kalamazoo, had an MG/Triumph shop customer, that rented the building for storage!  On a road trip, I stopped in for a visit & got the tour!! 😎

Sorry to hijack, but that statement recalled how my parents were lucky enough to be toured through the old Morgan factory a couple decades ago, and saw the wooden frames being made, the hand tanning of the leather, everything. Archaic but so timeless. oh yeah, my parents weren't even into cars much. Our Story - Morgan Motor Company (morgan-motor.com)