L-16 Tune-up won't run right...

[Figbuck]

I can get it to fire and run... but I have to give it a 1/4 throttle.

 

It spins about 600rpm... but if I let off the gas it stalls.

 

The Dwell meter says the primary points are about 50 degrees.

 

It won't accelerate with more gas... and stalls when I let it off.

 

 

 

 

Last week it was starting to miss in 3rd and 4th @ about 4 to 5K RPM going up hills or hard acceleration after a year an a half of dependable daily driving. 

 

I checked the valves cold.  3 of the exhaust valves were .001 tight so I set them to .010, so that an .11 wouldn't fit. The intakes were good @ .008 except one was loose .001 and I set it. (Didn't bother to check them hot) 

 

I installed new plugs. Checked the gap out of the box, OK. 

 

Did a compression test... #1 pumped  155 and #2, 3 & 4  were right at 150. I didn't squirt any oil in it and pump that. I put a fresh head on it 9k miles ago. The rings have 60K on them and I change my oil every 3K.

 

I set the idle to 800 rpm and set the primary point dwell to 50deg. it was around 40.

 

Set the timing to 12 deg.

 

Took it for a spin and it seemed not to have much power off  the line. If I blipped the throttle it wasn't very crisp... but it but it revved really clean. I could wind it out over 5K and it pulled hard in every gear and even pulled up hills in 3rd and 4th from 3000 or 4000RPM and I could still feel it accelerate in 4th... so running pretty darn good.

 

I got on the freeway and wound the shit out of it 3rd and 4th up to about 80mph. Felt good. I thought OK, now I will put the new cap, rotor on and call it good for a while.

 

But when I came off the freeway it stalled. Hard to start, but I got it going until I took it out of gear at the 1st stop light and it died. Got it started but it would die and I couldn't get to to fire by dumping the clutch on compression on a hill. 

 

I thought that the carb had vapor locked up so, I left it in a parking lot and came back a couple hours later. Wouldn't fire at all. I started to poke around and found that one the of the contacts on the primary point was burnt to a crispy critter and half blown off. I bumped it more open and it fired right up. I drove it home and it ran great.

 

So this morning I bought new points (I know I should have changed the condensers too but I forgot to get them). I don't mess with the secondary until I get the primary right then use a jumper to check dwell on them. I set the primary gap to .019" to get it to run, so I could check the dwell...

 

but it won't idle or run with out some throttle... no acceleration either, 

 

I stuck the new cap and rotor on it, no go. I have a good used set of plug wires and cap and the same thing... checked  the firing order... #1 in the front... #3, #4 and #2 counter clockwise. (for L16)

 

I tried to rotate the dist. clockwise to the Advanced side, then to the Retarded side... doesn't seem to help, so I left it right in the middle. Tried to move the Primary point more closed... until it wouldn't even fire... more open no better.

 

Hey usually if I get the Dwell set at 49 or 50 it runs. It will run way out of time usually, so I am stuck... 

 

any ideas? What am I missing?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Rick-rat]

I only ran the primary when I had the dual points, If the points are burnt it is usually the condensor

[datzenmike]

Hainz would say put it back the way it was and see.

[Figbuck]

It only runs on the primary until you shift into 4th right?  But I put brand new points in it. They are not burnt. The one I replaced only had 9K on it and the contacts were not burnt... it looks like somehow the part failed. If the condensor was bad it wouldn't run... it ran great until I put the new primary points in.

 

Put it back how?

 

And see what?

 

Back to the broken points where the copper contact came off?? It ran like that!!! Back to old dead plugs, 10 degrees off the dwell and 6 degrees off the timing mark. Yeah, it kinda ran like that... why put it back again??

 

Why won't it run with a new point set? Gapped them with a feeler, so it would run enough to dial it in with a dwell meter. Should run like that... even if it's not at 12 degrees on the timing mark. There are no wires grounding out inside the distributer. New rotor, cap, plugs... checked firing order, tried spare cap and wires. 

 

I got compression.

 

I got spark... or it wouldn't fire and run at all.  I put a test light on the points it lights up.

 

Hard to start, have to give it some throttle.

 

I sounds like it is running on one or two cylinders, won't idle and won't accelerate, stalls with out throttle.

[datzenmike]

If you think the condenser is bad disconnect it and see if there's an improvement. Cars will run without them but the points will wear faster. Points gap is usually around 0.022" roughly. I've seen old chevs with the contact worn off and the arm making contact and it ran.

[I'm BLUE]

Yeah I'd slap another set of points/condensor on there (they go bad often and sometimes are crap off the shelf) , and make sure  your distributor shaft/bushings does not have a lot of play or tuning will not be fun for you. I've had some of the CHEAP distributor caps flex on the body or fall apart on the center bushing.. literally. The pillowblock resistors ocassionally go bad , and more often the connections get oxidized/crapped up via the terminals as well as wires (if you have one on your rig).

 

Datzenmike -- my cars have always died/won't start when I disconnect the condensor trying that.. do you have the magic touch ? lol . Something I must not know.

[Figbuck]

I don't think the condensor is bad. Wish I had a spare to test with. 

 

IT RAN ON THE BROKEN POINT... when I eyeballed the gap in the parking lot. It ran great before it broke... 

 

the only the that changed was putting in a new point set and mechanically measuring the point gap.

 

The pint gap is .018 to .020... sooo I use a .019. Should run. Back before the rebuild, I ran point until they were so pitted and burnt there wasn't a gap any more.

 

Fuck me. I feel so frustrated, because I know it's something stupid simple that I'm missing.  

[DanielC]

Might I suggest a matchbox distributor?

 

A coil will spark with points, and no condenser, or a bad condenser, sometimes, but the spark is really weak.   I use a Spark tester, that you can adjust the gap to about 1/2 a inch.

It is much harder to force a spark to jump the plug gap under compression, than it is in free air.  

[Figbuck]

I got two sets of points... one of the boxes had the points in a plastic bag.

 

The other box had the points... no bag... and the screw and square nut were loose in the box. The lock washer was missing. 

 

It didn't seem like that was the one to use first. But I could see the spring somehow not working right causing the arm to float.

 

It's dark now and I'm toasted... but the next thing I was going to try was sticking this other set in there. I clean every thing off really well and make sure contacts, plugs and clips are looking pretty. I'm pretty good at trouble shooting and not assuming that parts are good used or new. So that is a good suggestion DTP... don't assume the new part works. 

 

I should check the condensors with an Ohm meter. Either they read right or not. I don't know, but I don't think they stop working,,, they loose their capacitance over time.

 

 

 

Thanks for the help guys...

[datzenmike]

The capacitor or filter is just two long strips of foil separated by insulating paper and rolled up in a small can. You should have no connection electrically between them.

 

One side is grounded and the other to the points. When the points are closed or grounded both sides of the capacitor are at ground. When the points open, suddenly one side is at 12 volts and normally will arc as the connection is broken. With a capasitor connected, the 12 volt potential 'sees' a ground potential in the capacitor because of the large surface of foil very close to another surface of foil at ground. A small amount of cuttent will flow into the capacitor (opposites attract) rather than jumping the points gap as an arc.

 

A capacitor can fail two ways. It may form a connection between the two strips of foil effectively shorting it to ground. When the points open power is not interrupted and the coil fails to fire. Or the connection to one of the strips of foil might break effectively you have no capacitor, and then the points will arc excessively.

 

Without the capacitor you can expect the points to burn up in as little as 50 miles though they can go 5 or 6 times that far.

[Figbuck]

Might I suggest a matchbox distributor?

 

 

Daniel I know you mean well... but that doesn't solve my immediate problem. I'm not picking on you. If you didn't say it, then some other Ratsunista would have. 

 

I might be a fool... but I'm not stupid. 

 

Mostly I'm poor. It's the root of all my problems. If I had a lousy buck, I wouldn't even get my hands dirty. I know a great mechanic and shop that charge really reasonable rates. I would love to have them pimp my ride... but, as long as we are wishing... I wish for a new Honda CRB1000 and a new Pathfinder to tow it to PIR for track days!!

 

A "matchbox"??

 

I might have something like that.

 

Which one of these is a matchbox?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's see... if... my truck ran, I could go over to the barn, spend the whole day trying to find them buried under mountains of crap.

 

If I had a place to work on my truck, I probably would have done the swap 3 years ago. I got the hairy eyeball from our landlord yesterday because I had the hood up in the carport. I push it out in the street to work on it so she can't give me any crap. Can't afford to get kicked out of here. 

 

 

 

If... the big if. If the queen had balls she would be king.

 

If this engine has been running fine for 40 years... why not tune it and drive it? So far it's never been a problem.

[john510]

Are you measuring point gap while the points are on the bump of the distributor cam lobe ? i hope this isnt a stupid question

[DanielC]

Those are matchbox distributors.  You also have the pedestal it sits on. 

 

There is a good chance you could remove the pedestal under your point distributor, and put the matchbox distributor on, and if everything lines up, do it in less time than it takes to change a set of points.

 

Turn your engine by hand, clockwise until you are at 10 to 12 degrees before top dead center, number one.

Put the matchbox pedestal on the engine.   Slip the matchbox distributor into the pedestal, and turn the rotor until it drops down.

 

This is your picture.

The distributor fires when the points on the rotor line up exactly with the points on the stationary ring.  If you can adjust the position of the distributor body by loosening the bolt that holds the plate to the pedestal, and the distributor, do that now.

 

Put the rotor on the distributor, and look to see what tower on your distributor cap it is pointing to.  that is number one plug wire.  Go counterclockwise around the cap from there, 1, 3, 4, 2.

 

Run a wire from the positive side of the coil to the "B" terminal on the matchbox.

Run a wire from the negative side of the coil to the "C" terminal on the matchbox.

Run a wire from the body of the distributor the the cylinder head.

 

The engine should run, and be pretty close in time.

[banzai510(hainz)]

hopefgully everything else is stock and you didnt put a different coil in there .

If you swapped the points and maybe its running worse  most times is the points grounding out where the screw goes in or soemthing like that.

If valves are set hot /cold is close enought to what you got to get it running.

Now maybe the dizzy bushing is worn out cause the shaft to wopple.

 

If you get spark at the center coil wire  its pretty much good. or one can take  test kight hook the one end to + batter and the other end to the tab where the point wire hooks to. If light flashes on/off during cranking then you know its OK. Of it stays on or never comes on then you know the points are good or bad. Condensors I would ut the old one back in.

Personally once I went to a Pertronix (or Matchbox set up for others)I never had ignition proplems agin untill the distributor just plains wear out(bushing).

 

If you pour gas in carb and runsfine for a little then electrical might be Ok then the carb.   Duyal point dizzy are EZ to come by and swap another in.

all I can think maybetyou got the dual point wires swapped or soemthing. I would use the main points and not hook up the 2nd points. The main point is near the engine block and uses a bigger condensor. just run it on that.

 

When I had points I would swap in another and then it wouldnt run. Put old in , it would run then put new in then it would run. All I can think i grounded soemthing out

[Figbuck]

Thanks for the ideas.

 

I don't know how else to say it...  IT WAS RUNNING STRONG... BROKEN POINT CONTACT & ALL... until I put the new points in.

 

All stock, all 49-state emissions still hooked up. Never touched the caps or the secondary points.  Stock coil that has been in there for 25 years, (because one time I thought the coil could have gone bad... but they rarely do), so I bought another one from the dealer. I still have the original as a spare to check and rule out a bad coil. The carb is the Stock Hitachi that has run great since I rebuilt both my stock one and a perfect one off the same year truck... maybe 75K ago. Choke works... one pump to turn it on and hit the key hot, cold, summer, winter. Warms up and drops to 800 rpm idle.

 

Yes I set the point gap on the high spots of the shaft. They read the same on all 4 lobes. No play in the shaft.

 

Did I mention that it pulled strong on the freeway in 4th gear up to 80mph? Before the contact came off the point and it stopped running.  

 

Let's see. I have gas. I can see it in the filter, the float bowl, and smell it in the carb... do I need to look to see if it is squirting in the throttle body? Oh yeah, I drove it home and changed the primary point, then it wouldn't run.

 

If I didn't have spark, it wouldn't run at all. Re-re-re-re check the firing order. Because it seems like it's only running on one or two cylinders. Tried the new cap and rotor with the wires that were on there... maybe 9 or 10K mi on them... and swapped them out for an old set that I pulled off and are in my little box of good spares that I use to troubleshoot when stuff happens like this.

 

 

 

 

 

So after the Oregon Ducks are pretty much creaming the Tennessee what ever they are... I went out and stuck in the second set of points that I bought. It kind of fires & runs, but it's just the same as before... needs gas to run @ 600 rpm, won't accelerate, and stalls with out gas, won't idle. I rotate the Dist to both ends of the timing and it will only fire somewhere in the middle. As the engine runs, I can look at my dwell meter and tach. As I adjust the point gap I can see the corresponding results; too wide, too low dwell angle... too close, too high a reading. It would tell me if the points were open or grounded out. I checked to see if the looms on the cap wires are not touching anything.

[datzenmike]

You did describe a hard acceleration out on the highway. Maybe the new plugs are glazed. Hammering it can loosen carbon and melt off deposits that plate themselves on the plugs. Just for the hell of it put the old plugs back in.

[Draker]

I put new plugs in my L16 and it actually runs worse.. Weird stuff. I might go back to the old ones.

[KlassicMotion]

Did you check for vacuum leaks??

 

Possibly a cracked vacuum hose, or leaking gasket?

 

A vacuum leak would cause a drop in idle, and require more throttle to keep it running...

 

Hook up a vacuum gauge, or spray non-chlorinated brake cleaner around your vacuum hoses, intake gasket, and carb base and carb throttle shaft.

 

Even if I'm wrong, it won't hurt to check.

[Suspect]

Where are you getting your points from?  I've bought points from autozone and o'rileys and have had problems with both.  I even tried more expensive points from there and the quality is still below standard.  When I was driving my 620 daily, I always had issues with points.  I've even stuck a new set in and it would barely run.  I've found that checking them at night with the cap off and having someone els crank the engine, you can see if the spark is working correctly and not arching somewhere els. 

 

I've had issues not with Datsun points but with points for my Ford Galaxie and Mercury Meteor.  I bought new points for the Galaxie when I first got the car, they lasted a couple months and they shorted out.  I was on the road when it happened, just swapped the old copper points back in.  Thats been 20k ago, still runs great on the old points.  On the Mercury wagon, one time I thought I had bad points, bought new again (several times in the 4 years I drove it) but this time points didn't fix the problem.  I was stumped, didn't think the condenser was bad because it was new and brand accell.  Well, just for laughs, swapped an oddball I had laying around, problem fixed. 

 

Points, condensers can be very frustrating at times and you think nothing about them when they work right, and in a split second can leave you fighting to get your car home.

 

Also on the plugs, I've had best luck with Champion plugs in the Datsun's.  I have bought a set of NKG platinums, they wouldn't even run, pulled them, bought new Champions ran great.

[Figbuck]

That's funny, I had Champions give me fits waay back in the '70s when that's what everybody ran. They backed out of the holes, cracked, all kinds of stuff. Always ran NGK and Nippondenso ever since. I got them from Discount Import Parts on Hall Blvd & Scholls Ferry because I was over there. Usually I go to Carquest, because they usually have Datsun/Nissan info on their computers, name brands and if they don't have it in stock can get it in a couple hours. 

 

I have two sets of old plugs that looked decent when I changed them, and were running...

 

I just pulled the new ones and they were a little oily like they got wet with gas and probably were fouled when I got off the freeway & it ran out of time, died.  But not horrible.

 

The old plugs fire, but same deal won't run. I thought for sure it would fire right up and run...  like the the new ones got fouled with me messing around trying to start it out of time and pumping gas on it.

 

Whenever I have had problems like this, it was almost always points.  

 

All the vacuum hoses are new, but I will check for leaks around the carb.  

 

I will have to go to the "barn" and find the matchbox distributors. I have no idea if they work. I had been looking for one for many years at the junk yards with no luck. Then one day there were two early 620s parked right in the front row @ Pick N Pull.  I would say that these were not original to that year truck and were swapped in. I wish I would have grabbed the coils, but I didn't.

 

I know the coil and resistor set-up I have won't work with the matchbox. What coil should I get?? What cap & rotor? 

[KlassicMotion]

I just went to the parts store and asked for 1980 720,  2wd, L20B coil.  That's what my L20B is from.

[datzenmike]

Yes you can run a matchbox dizzy with your stock coil and ballast. But you must keep and use the ballast.

 

Basically you are converting to breakerless distributor with no increase in secondary voltage, just being rid of the points.

 

 

To get the advantage of a higher voltage and hotter spark, you can swap the proper EI coil in later. Now the ballast resistor isn't needed and can be removed.

[DanielC]

Ratsun, this truck, has been running a stock points 521 coil, and ballast resistor since April of 2011.

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/30606-my-ratsun-datsun-521/page-2 

This page, a few posts down details how I put the matchbox distributor on the engine in Ratsun.

 

Here is a schematic on the wiring of a stock 521, with stock coil, and ballast resistor, with a matchbox distributor.

 

From April, 2011, to August of 2013, I just drove Ratsun around on the farm.  August 8 was the first test drive on the road, and I took Ratsun to Blue Lake on August 11, the first time I drove Ratsun at a higher speed on the freeway.  Last week, I drove to Wayno's house, to get a windshield gasket.  I have had no problems with the truck, or the ignition system.

[DanielC]

Ratsun, this truck, has been running a stock points 521 coil, and ballast resistor since April of 2011.

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/30606-my-ratsun-datsun-521/page-2 

This page, a few posts down details how I put the matchbox distributor on the engine in Ratsun.

 

Here is a schematic on the wiring of a stock 521, with stock coil, and ballast resistor, with a matchbox distributor.

 

From April, 2011, to August of 2013, I just drove Ratsun around on the farm.  August 8 was the first test drive on the road, and I took Ratsun to Blue Lake on August 11, the first time I drove Ratsun at a higher speed on the freeway.  Last week, I drove to Wayno's house, to get a windshield gasket.  I have had no problems with the truck, or the ignition system.

[banzai510(hainz)]

this is a simple fix.

YOur just missing something