Bagged and Boosted 71 4dr 510

[jrock4224]

tristan read page two... sorry no pics, so u probly glazed right over it ...

[Tristin]

Well, I did plan on just running their analog setup with no digital bullshit but glad to know now that the bags themselves are crap. Youre right... I did skim over that; good call Jon.

[twistedimages]

TristinGrind: You're going to run into the same problem as with these air cylinders with the ShockWaves- they're not designed for a Macpherson strut suspension. On a street rod front or rear suspension, the axle is held in position by upper and lower control arms or link bars, so the ShockWave is only acting as your spring and shock, with no side loads on it from cornering, accelerating, or braking.

 

On the front of a Datsun 510, there is no upper control arm, so all of those cornering loads are translated through the strut housing and up to the strut towers. This is why the strut assembly is so beefy compared to a Honda Civic or other vehicle with a multilink suspension.

 

Spudly13: If you just ran an airbag on the lower arm, there would be nothing in place to hold your wheel's camber and caster settings, so your wheel would just flop around on the lower balljoint. Great if you want to recreate the hover conversion from Back to the Future, but not ideal otherwise!

 

The front of these cars is kind of tricky, because the wheel sits so close to the strut. I've seen Universal Air AeroSport bags mounted on the stock struts, but they have to sit above the wheel level, which limits how low you can drop... There are air cylinders made with thicker shafts and pistons to handle Macpherson front ends, which may be the way to go.

 

For my 2 cents (like I haven't already given it!), I'd probably go with hydraulics. There are cylinders that can handle the side loads that would ride really nicely with accumulators... but since you have an air system already I'd look into those Mac cylinders. Good luck!

[Tristin]

From everything Ive read on the site (not talking about quality of products), it seems like the Shockwaves were indeed made for this setup. They are said to replace the coilover... so if a coilover is a legit aftermarket product to use on these vehicles, why would something thats made to replace them not be?

[twistedimages]

They're referring to a coilover shock, not a coilover sleeve on a strut. Something along the lines of:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/QA1-Adjustable-Coil-Over-Shock-Kits,1207.html

 

I PROMISE I'm not just on here to urinate in anyone's breakfast cereal- I was just lurking like I usually do and came across this thread- want to keep everyone from having a catastrophic failure on the road!

[VintageRice]

 

 

I PROMISE I'm not just on here to urinate in anyone's breakfast cereal..........

 

I may have to add you quote to my sig. LOL

[spudly13]

TristinGrind: You're going to run into the same problem as with these air cylinders with the ShockWaves- they're not designed for a Macpherson strut suspension. On a street rod front or rear suspension, the axle is held in position by upper and lower control arms or link bars, so the ShockWave is only acting as your spring and shock, with no side loads on it from cornering, accelerating, or braking.

 

On the front of a Datsun 510, there is no upper control arm, so all of those cornering loads are translated through the strut housing and up to the strut towers. This is why the strut assembly is so beefy compared to a Honda Civic or other vehicle with a multilink suspension.

 

Spudly13: If you just ran an airbag on the lower arm, there would be nothing in place to hold your wheel's camber and caster settings, so your wheel would just flop around on the lower balljoint. Great if you want to recreate the hover conversion from Back to the Future, but not ideal otherwise!

 

The front of these cars is kind of tricky, because the wheel sits so close to the strut. I've seen Universal Air AeroSport bags mounted on the stock struts, but they have to sit above the wheel level, which limits how low you can drop... There are air cylinders made with thicker shafts and pistons to handle Macpherson front ends, which may be the way to go.

 

For my 2 cents (like I haven't already given it!), I'd probably go with hydraulics. There are cylinders that can handle the side loads that would ride really nicely with accumulators... but since you have an air system already I'd look into those Mac cylinders. Good luck!

 

I was talking about putting the bag up in the tower bolted to my camber plate and mounted to my the strut. not just letting it flop around?

But i freind of my mine just installed shockwave stuff in his audi, the front ends are pretty similar and it worked out fine for him....

I think it all depends on how much effort your willing to put into it to make it work

[twistedimages]

Thanks for that!

 

I just called RideTech, because their catalog USED to have some air struts that are designed for Mac strut vehicles. They aren't really pushing them anymore, but he says they still have a part number for newer Mustangs in the system. However, they're 60+ days out on production of them, and I have no idea what mods would need to be made (if possible) to make them work on a dime...

 

I'm also looking for someone that still makes a cylinder for Macpherson struts- used to be a company in Canada called Brisland's, but haven't heard anything from them in years. I'll post more if I find it.

[twistedimages]

May I ask what model Audi? There's quite a diverse range of suspensions under them. Air Lift makes bolt-in strut bags for a bunch of the newer Audis, but the clearances we have to work with don't jive with their bags.

 

As for bolting a bag between the tower and the camber plate- same problem with rigidity. You need something that keeps everything moving in a completely linear fashion or the wheel will be all over the place. A bag by itself will allow the top of the strut to move all over the place, and the only thing that would keep it from flopping completely over would be the bag rubbing against the strut tower- also a very bad thing.

 

Here's a company in Japan that seems to have an air cylinder for Macpherson struts- the bottom one "K-Matic GT":

http://www.krz.cc/can_over.html

[Tristin]

They're referring to a coilover shock, not a coilover sleeve on a strut. Something along the lines of:

http://www.speedwaym...-Kits,1207.html

 

I PROMISE I'm not just on here to urinate in anyone's breakfast cereal- I was just lurking like I usually do and came across this thread- want to keep everyone from having a catastrophic failure on the road!

 

So then those would be fine for the rear of the Dime then because AFIK thats what rear coilovers look like for them. And I appreciate all the info you can provide... Ive had many friends run bags on their trucks, but have never done it myself so Im very ignorant when it comes to the specifics. Thats why Im folowing this thread, to get more ideas on what to do and what not to do if/when I decide to do it.

 

Im sure Spudly would appreciate any info that keeps him from dying lol.

[twistedimages]

ShockWaves (or equivalent) would be just fine out back- the hub is fixed into position by the trailing arm, so the shock and spring only have to act as a spring and shock rather than a stressed suspension component.

 

I've always been a bit sketchy on mounting a spring on the 510 shock mounts, since they weren't really designed to hold the weight of the car, but I've seen so many coilovers installed on 510s that it's obviously strong enough!

 

And I apologize if I'm cluttering this thread with all of the back-and-forth!

[pants]

This thread is a wealth of information, even if it is going all over the place.

[Tristin]

Would it be wise to run the [insert whatever air bag you choose] in the rear and still use a spring in its normal spot? My only worry would be the prolonged compression of the spring while at 0psi on the bag. It would be like a helper spring inside a coilover.

[spudly13]

So then those would be fine for the rear of the Dime then because AFIK thats what rear coilovers look like for them. And I appreciate all the info you can provide... Ive had many friends run bags on their trucks, but have never done it myself so Im very ignorant when it comes to the specifics. Thats why Im folowing this thread, to get more ideas on what to do and what not to do if/when I decide to do it.

 

Im sure Spudly would appreciate any info that keeps him from dying lol.

 

Lol any info that keeps me from dying is fine by me, this is my first bag install as well and i to am very ignorant on the subject

[spudly13]

May I ask what model Audi? There's quite a diverse range of suspensions under them. Air Lift makes bolt-in strut bags for a bunch of the newer Audis, but the clearances we have to work with don't jive with their bags.

 

As for bolting a bag between the tower and the camber plate- same problem with rigidity. You need something that keeps everything moving in a completely linear fashion or the wheel will be all over the place. A bag by itself will allow the top of the strut to move all over the place, and the only thing that would keep it from flopping completely over would be the bag rubbing against the strut tower- also a very bad thing.

 

Here's a company in Japan that seems to have an air cylinder for Macpherson struts- the bottom one "K-Matic GT":

http://www.krz.cc/can_over.html

 

I just talked to him, and your right, hes running a suspension bolt in kit from air lift or someother company like that.

Its an audi a4

[spudly13]

Would it be wise to run the [insert whatever air bag you choose] in the rear and still use a spring in its normal spot? My only worry would be the prolonged compression of the spring while at 0psi on the bag. It would be like a helper spring inside a coilover.

 

Personally i dont see what good it would do, im not sure you would find a spring to compress that much at 0 psi and still do anything when your aired up. On top of that where would you put the bag?

I dunno i guess it could help though? hopefully someone who acutally knows something will chime in!

[Tristin]

Well the bag I wanted to run would actually bolt in place where the shock does... So that area would still be free to have a spring in it. Either way, the real issue for your setup right now is finding something safe for the front struts.

[spudly13]

Yup pretty much, ive gone back to the drawing board on the fronts. I think i have a design using a bag and the strut that wouldnt allow it to move all over. but im still thinking on it.

 

If you guys cant tell, im a build it yourself kinda guy, i cant afford buying a 4000$ air setup, so i guess you could say im an innovater? i like trying to solve problems and build things.

 

So if anyone has any design ideas using a run of the mill bag up front let me know, im open to all cheap, labor intensive ideas

 

Im also working on 4 more valves for 4 wheel control, the bag transfer thing is so annoying, as soon as i get into the car or park on a slant the car tilts side to side. and 4 wheel control should help the car handle much better.

[DISLEXICDIME]

you could build a arms

[INDY510]

.

I don't "know" air-bags,, but I would look for a universal slide over strut bag.... (small enough to clear the front tires)

 

many struts have the same O.D. as 510 struts .. .. . here's a couple links for universal bag over strut kits,,, they say McPherson or NOT

 

http://bagriders.com...%7B47%7DSTRUTS/

 

http://www.airliftpe...ions/universal/

 

 

I don't know anything about bags,,,,

 

but I have drivin' a slammed 4dr on #225 coilovers dragging the floors, exaust, and oil pan drain plug on the freeway

 

with less than 2.5" clearance at the front X-member a 510 is no longer fun to drive....... anything over 3" gets more fun to drive up to 4"

 

in less than 5 minutes I can put the front on the ground ... .. and 5 minutes later go to the race track: ... (shotened 510 struts MR2 inserts)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The front control arms were dragging for the 35ft I drove at that height ...... but I got stuck and couldn't move when I took that pic

 

you can't drag rockers on a 510 unless the front crossmember and motor is raised at least 2 inches .... (not possible without new front frame rails/full cage)

 

The above pic is the lowest my 4dr ever drove (front and rear) ........ the rear rockers were over 4.5" off the ground .... . and the rear coilovers were bottoming out on every bump

 

raised up 2inches from there and it is WAY more fun to drive ..... ... but only because the #225 coilovers are stiff enough to keep me from dragging

[Tristin]

This is what Ive been thinking for a setup. Im the most knowledgable suspension guy so take it as you will... Ill take the comments from some of the other guys:

 

 

In this little sketch-

-The bag is attached to the top of the strut tower

-A shortened strut and hub are attached to the bottom of the bag

-A tube/pipe with a ID equal to the OD (with a few millimeters of clearance) is attached to the top of the strut tower

 

This should allow the bag to compress and inflate safely while the pipe will minimize the side to side movement as the car drives around.

[twistedimages]

What you've drawn would technically work I think, but I would add a way for the inner and outer tubes to be keyed to each other so nothing could rotate. The other consideration would be a way to keep the inner and outer pipes from binding- perhaps a roller bearing setup similar to the rear axles on a 510?

 

Of course, then the next challenge is to find a bag that can fit inside two tubes that fit up into the strut towers, but still has enough capacity to lift the front end...

 

I'll ponder a bit more!

[Tristin]

Yes, something keyed would be needed though there is only one pipe. I'm not sure where you're getting two. The bag would sit on a cut 510 or 280zx strut and would slide into a pipe. Both the pipe and the bag would be staticly secured to the top of the strut tower. You maybe able to make a Delrin disk that is slightly larger than the bottom of the bag. Secure that to the bottom and that could slide up and down the inside of the pipe.

[spudly13]

Thats basically the same idea i had drawn out, but the only problem i have with it in my head is (not sure if this is true for all bags) when they inflate they get narrower and deflate they get fatter. But yeah same idea i was thinking of... you could run a bearing at the top so the strut would turn with the steering as a normal strut? but i dunno if you want the bag spinning inside a pipe..

 

Indy, how did you get that low and not have your sway bar and control arm bind up against the frame?????? i had to take mine out, and id love to know how i can make it work with it in!!!!! I get what your saying about driving that low, but thats the beauty of bags, i wouldnt be dd it that low.

[Duke]

I don't think that idea will work. In your picture the bag is what is locating the top of the strut. As I understand it the bags are not very rigid. This would lead to the camber and caster changing with the flexing of the bag, not a situation that I would call safe.