How fast is a 510 wagon with a NA KA

[sean1978]

Alright guys, I'm about to pull the trigger on buying stuff for my 510 wagon and I'm trying to figure out how happy I would be (for now) with a NA/KA.

 

I don't really have any other 510s around here to compare it to. I'm assuming it will be faster than my s13 was with a KA due to the weight difference but am not sure how much. Anyone have quarter mile times in a NA KA wagon?

[fo0manchu]

its a fun ride. Keeps up with my bro's subaru wrx wagon. He had his dynoed and tuned to 250hp. He could barely pull on me. Not off the line, but this was at a rolling start. He would probably own me from a stand still as I get no traction.

[benzo]

I don't have a KA but I have a LZ2.3 from rebello and it is making as much HP and Tq as a KA and it helps move that car a lot. for sure the torque would help you and if you use the fuel injection that would be nice for daily driving and gas mileage around the city driving. you may notice the torque may seem weak as I think the gear ratios in the back are 3.7. I am looking at changing the diff to 4.11

 

Good luck and chronicle your build.

[WagDatto]

I have not regretted doing the KA swap in my wagon ONCE since I pulled the trigger.

 

Plenty of torque to slam you back in your seat EVERY time you push the pedal on the right.. Plenty of power to keep you pulling up to the higher RPM's. I've been driving this thing for over a year, and even last night, rolling on the throttle and getting up just below fuel cut, it gave me a huge smile and the shakes!

 

I have not taken it to the track yet, as I work Wednesdays (track day at Sac Raceway), so I can't tell you what 1/4 mile times I'd pull... But as you said, not only is the 510 lighter than a 240sx, but to get the thing to fit, it has to be modified as far as intake and exhaust... and why not de-smog it while you're in there? Crank the timing up about 10* advanced, and it'll pull HARD all the way through!

 

EDIT: The only downside to owning a wagon is the rear leaf springs and axle. If you lower it, I URGE you to get the springs de-arched/stiffened OVER doing blocks. Lowering blocks cause the axle to "wrap" the springs more severely than without, and the KA swap makes this problem worse because of the added torque from the motor. Even if it's just flipping a leaf in the pack, or having it professionally done, it will keep some of the stress off the axle shafts. Don't snap your shafts like me!

Edited August 3, 2009 by WagDatto

[Jesse C.]

You can get rid of the axle wrap by installing some slapper bars, overide bars or ladder bars. Also, a Mopar style pinion rubber will help greatly.

[WagDatto]

Yeah, I'll be designing some Caltrac style traction bars in the next few months. My car's too low to use slapper bars.

 

I was merely stating that it's an issue that not many people hear of because most people go for a sedan over a wagon for performance swaps.

[Jesse C.]

Yeah, those leaf spring do not react well to increased power loads, but, they can be managed. I always thought about doing a four link setup when I had my wagon, but, I never got that far before I sold it.

[kaoss]

How much heavier is a 77 620 vs a 510?

[datzenmike]

Alright guys, I'm about to pull the trigger on buying stuff for my 510 wagon and I'm trying to figure out how happy I would be (for now) with a NA/KA.

 

I don't really have any other 510s around here to compare it to. I'm assuming it will be faster than my s13 was with a KA due to the weight difference but am not sure how much. Anyone have quarter mile times in a NA KA wagon?

 

As a general rule of thumb... for every 100 lb less that a car weighs... it's quarter mile times are cut by 0.1 second. If the goon weighs about 2300 lb and the S13 weighs 2800 lb, the wagon will be aprox. 1/2 second faster in the quarter mile. Assuming a quarter mile top speed of ... 80 MPH this would place the goon almost 60 feet ahead at the finish. So 2 to 2 1/2 lengths ahead? Just guessing at the S13 weight.

[sean1978]

I'm not really a quarter mile person, but having some hard numbers makes it easier to imgine what it is like in comparison to other cars.

 

here are some examples:

link

 

1991 Nissan 240SX SE 7.9 16.1

1993 Nissan 240SX Convertible 9.6 17.3

1993 Nissan 240SX SE 8.4 16.3

1995 Nissan 240SX SE 8.3 16.1

 

I know people run faster times with a stock engine with a better clutch and tires.

 

so about 15.5 would be the guess right?

 

Keeps up with my bro's subaru wrx wagon. He had his dynoed and tuned to 250hp. He could barely pull on me. Not off the line, but this was at a rolling start. He would probably own me from a stand still as I get no traction.

 

This site quotes a 05 WRX wagon at 14.2 ET. I'm not sure what year your brothers is.

 

Found this video on youtube. Guy with a KA in a goon appears to do a 15.2 at 94 MPH

Edited August 3, 2009 by sean1978

[b210in]

hey that was a cool link. dude, forget about the quarter mile times. just know that dropping in ka will be an awesome upgrade, do it!!!!!!!!!

[jesusno2]

How fast ya wanna go and how much money ya wanna spend? Just the swap itself costs more than ya think. Ka motors are nice engines and with a turbo their even better! I guess with a single cam ka with say about 8 to 10 lbs boost and the right tune you could land a mid to low 13 second quarter mile time slip. Pretty good considiring its basically a stock 4 banger!

[sean1978]

How fast ya wanna go and how much money ya wanna spend? Just the swap itself costs more than ya think. Ka motors are nice engines and with a turbo their even better!

 

I'll give you guys some background on myself. I have put together a few project cars.

 

I have a complete SR20DET motorset sitting in my garage next to my wagon. I'm basically deciding if I'm going to get enough fun out of spending $3000+ on swapping my SR into the wagon OR if I'd rather sell my SR for 2K and spend $4500 on the car after getting a KA motorset.

 

I'm not trying to build anything super fast or for the drag strip, I just want something fun and dependable. The quarter mile times as I said before are only to give me an idea of how fast it would be in relation to something else I have driven before.

 

This is moving from the topic but here's what I'm thinking:

 

-KA24DE+flywheel, header and clutch

-ZX front brakes and master cylinder

-T3 coilovers and TC rods / camber plates

-aftermarket front sway

-a nice steering wheel (nardi, momo classic)

 

I think my SR might be a bit too much on just the engine, I'd still have a bunch of money to spend on everything else.

 

 

I don't need to lower the back a ton because I'd like to be able to drive around 4 people if I want to.

 

I already built a crazy stupid project and learned a few lessons about how fun going "all out" really is, I don't want to do that again.

 

From what you guys are saying I'm thinking I'll be happy with the KA.

[jesusno2]

Ka the wagon and save some money. Because a stock wagon chassis won't hook a built l18 with the money you save doing the ka you'll have enough to put into the rest of the chassis to actually put that power to the ground and hold it. And that's priceless and will win races! Sr20det motors are nice but big$$$$ and like I said if ya want more later turbo the ka they respond very well to about 10lbs boost!

[benzo]

I personally would do the de swap like you want and keep it as close to stock for a while. It will have enough power and be reliable. just remember to keep it reliable do the swap as clean as possible as hack wiring and half ass installs hurt a lot of people.

 

I would not bother getting the TC rods but that is up to you. I would rather save the money for other stuff. I would pass on the camber plates also but then again up to you. I have zx brakes and don't use any of that stuff. I use a 2" block and it works fine even for 4 people. I would not go any lower. you can check out my pics on flickr under smart monkey or myspace under garagelife. feel free to IM for questions

[bonvo]

you already have an sr? im gonna guess your missing some things for the swap then cause sr and ka swaps require the same mods

[WagDatto]

you already have an sr? im gonna guess your missing some things for the swap then cause sr and ka swaps require the same mods

 

Wrong... The SR requires a modified steering center link, new intercooler (and modification to core support typically), different radiator (inlet/outlet on different side than KA), a different turbo manifold, downpipe, intercooler piping, etc...

 

It's much more expensive than a KA swap besides just the cost of the motorset.

[sean1978]

Wrong... The SR requires a modified steering center link, new intercooler (and modification to core support typically), different radiator (inlet/outlet on different side than KA), a different turbo manifold, downpipe, intercooler piping, etc...

 

 

yup. I don't have the time or knowhow to fabricate things myself. If I did a SR swap it would not be a patchwork or hack job.

 

KA is sounding like the way to go for me.

[WagDatto]

yup. I don't have the time or knowhow to fabricate things myself. If I did a SR swap it would not be a patchwork or hack job.

 

KA is sounding like the way to go for me.

 

The KA requires nearly the same amount of FABRICATION, but the SR requires more STUFF, making it more expensive.

 

The only thing as far as dropping the motor in that's different between the two is modifying the steering center link. Other than that, you still need to modify the engine crossmember, custom make or purchase a transmission crossmember, have the drive shaft shortened (with a wagon, BUY A SEDAN DRIVESHAFT!!), do the wiring, modify the exhaust manifold, etc, etc, etc.

 

The KA will not cost MUCH less... But when we look at SR manifold pricing and intercooler pricing, it bumps the price of a SR up a few hundred.

[bonvo]

The KA requires nearly the same amount of FABRICATION, but the SR requires more STUFF, making it more expensive.

 

The only thing as far as dropping the motor in that's different between the two is modifying the steering center link. Other than that, you still need to modify the engine crossmember, custom make or purchase a transmission crossmember, have the drive shaft shortened (with a wagon, BUY A SEDAN DRIVESHAFT!!), do the wiring, modify the exhaust manifold, etc, etc, etc.

 

The KA will not cost MUCH less... But when we look at SR manifold pricing and intercooler pricing, it bumps the price of a SR up a few hundred.

 

lol thats what i was trying to say was in terms of droping it in there almost identical

[Icehouse]

The KA requires nearly the same amount of FABRICATION, but the SR requires more STUFF, making it more expensive.

 

The only thing as far as dropping the motor in that's different between the two is modifying the steering center link. Other than that, you still need to modify the engine crossmember, custom make or purchase a transmission crossmember, have the drive shaft shortened (with a wagon, BUY A SEDAN DRIVESHAFT!!), do the wiring, modify the exhaust manifold, etc, etc, etc.

 

The KA will not cost MUCH less... But when we look at SR manifold pricing and intercooler pricing, it bumps the price of a SR up a few hundred.

 

I disagree, the KA is a easy easy swap, I think if me and Frank planned for it we could do one in a weekend. The SR swap on the other hand is a BITCH!!! Steering/turbo interference, SR block has very big reinforcements on the block for the tranny so the engine needs to be lifted and pushed back to clear steering, heater hoses are way harder to hook up, the rad intercooler is a bitch due to lack of room. There is much more fabrication and money involved in the SR swap. IMO I think I could buy and install a KA for under 500$ (I know because I have) Trying to keep an SR swap under 5k would be tough, one major problem is the starting price of the engine.

 

 

Although someone could make the KA require much more fab work. Look at Dukes KA swap :eek: Ton's of fab work!

[compression]

I get a reliable 150Hp at the rear wheels out of my 1995 twin cam KA.

 

You can always turbo the KA later, if you decide its too slow.

[thisisastickup]

I disagree, the KA is a easy easy swap, I think if me and Frank planned for it we could do one in a weekend. The SR swap on the other hand is a BITCH!!! Steering/turbo interference, SR block has very big reinforcements on the block for the tranny so the engine needs to be lifted and pushed back to clear steering, heater hoses are way harder to hook up, the rad intercooler is a bitch due to lack of room. There is much more fabrication and money involved in the SR swap. IMO I think I could buy and install a KA for under 500$ (I know because I have) Trying to keep an SR swap under 5k would be tough, one major problem is the starting price of the engine.

 

 

Although someone could make the KA require much more fab work. Look at Dukes KA swap :eek: Ton's of fab work!

 

Off topic, but is a KA swap for under 1500 a good goal?

[cjr198car]

Another idea?

 

VG30E...

 

-cheap.

-140+whp 170+wtq (stock, tuned on a mustang dyno).

-one less forward facing cylinder (weight distribution).

-sounds cool.

-who doesnt like more cylinders.

-did i mention cheap?

 

I used a team thump kit, but the vg30.com kit looks good too (engine mounts, six quart competition oil pan, pick up tube, and transmission crossmember mount comes out to $750 based on the website pricing).

 

http://www.vg30.com/510vg30parts.html

 

Ive seen VG30E's go for next to nothing, but you can probably get everything (maf, ecu, wiring harness, engine, etc.) for $500 + or - at a JY...or just wait it out for that next Z31 listing on craigslist and drive your swap home.

 

-Colton

Edited August 7, 2009 by cjr198car

[thisisastickup]

so looking at that swap kit, a vg30 sounds much more attractive.

 

what all else will I need for the swap?