ABS swap?

[Icehouse]

Has anyone swapped ABS into their Datto?  If you would have asked me 5 years ago if I would have even thought about ABS the answer would have been "HARD NO!" It turns out the reason you want ABS is different than you think.  As it turns out you want ABS to not ruin tires.  It's so easy to flat spot a tire road racing.  For that reason alone we are going to try this winter to finish the K swap and do ABS!!  With more speed will come more flat spots if we don't.  I just wondered if maybe someone else has done it?  

[thisismatt]

Never seen it done.  Need rings on all 4 hubs, no?

[datzenmike]

Could be on the stub axles on the rear.

[Icehouse]

21 minutes ago, thisismatt said:

Never seen it done.  Need rings on all 4 hubs, no?

 

 

Yeah you need each wheel speed,  BMW accelerometer sensor, front and rear brake pressure, and brake light switch all wired into the MK60 ABS block, other than that it's standalone.  Seems really cool.  Also since it's not like crank shaft that needs an exact position it just needs speed so any reluctor ring tooth count will be fine as long as all the corners match.  And you need the correct sensors.  

[Icehouse]

8 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Could be on the stub axles on the rear.

I was thinking the bolt on guy that holds the stub axle on.  Pull it off, turn it for the wheel we are going to use.  Just gotta hit Pick and Pull and find some parts.  

[datzenmike]

Certainly reduces the unsprung weight compared to on the hub.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I replied to this this morning. Where did the reply go?

[datzenmike]

Try hitting the BLUE Submit Reply button.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I did. I even saw the youtube link show up as a vid.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Ok, well I'm not going to rewrite everything I did yesterday, but yes, ABS is possible but for a racing type car, it will need to be pretty smart, ie- traction control. 4 reluctor rings and speed sensors, plus maybe even a yaw sensor or two.

 

Brian Rebello and I discussed this a few years ago and we found out that many of the standalone ECM systems support traction control.

 

Here's a vid as an example -

 

 

[Lockleaf]

This concept of standalone junkyard style ABS system intrigued me so I just went and checked out some videos on it.  Seems like any reluctor sensor will likely work (at least according to what I watched.)  It was also mentioned that there is some level of tuning available for the software inside the ABS unit.  Pretty neat for sure.

[Icehouse]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:44 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Ok, well I'm not going to rewrite everything I did yesterday, but yes, ABS is possible but for a racing type car, it will need to be pretty smart, ie- traction control. 4 reluctor rings and speed sensors, plus maybe even a yaw sensor or two.

 

Brian Rebello and I discussed this a few years ago and we found out that many of the standalone ECM systems support traction control.

 

Here's a vid as an example -

 

 

 

 

For now we just want ABS so we stop killing tires.  I mean in the rain I'm sure it would be handy to have traction control but I do just fine. Our car is pretty low powered.  Even with the Honda motor it's not going to be a turbo car 🙂 

 

 

[Ooph!]

It may be possible BUT is it wise? I'm thinking liability.

I don't recall anyone adding ABS or Air bags to a classic without body / chassis swapping.

Depending on the rules written for the class you are in adding it to a race car is possible because the driver takes full responsibility for safety.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ooph!

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yeah, I'd figure out another way to control the braking. Different pad compounds, brake bias, master cylinder size, etc.

 

A smaller master would give more braking feel. Maybe try that.

 

Definitely should have a brake bias (proportioning valve). Either the kind you can adjust in-car while driving, or the triple master setup. The set-it-and-forget-it types are great if you don't mind making a few pit stops and opening the hood.

[iceman510]

Good points Matt. My race car has both the pedal adjuster on the masters and a front rear in-car adjuster.  I have not messed with them much.  Just ran RA on Hoosier R7s (first time for me) switching from Toyo RA1s, and had adjusted the rear brake shoes also.  I was wondering if I would need to dabble with the adjustment of the brake bias, but it seemed ok.  A bit darty coming into turn 5, but after that straight and the high speeds I was not surprised.  

 

Jeff, with which tires are you experiencing flatspotting?  Any particular corner or front vs. rear?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Are you locking up the fronts? Rear drums can be made to work well. One thing we used to do was to cut the shoes with a sawzall to make blocks of friction material. That helped a lot, especially in the wet. Also, you can send cores to Porterfield to have them lined with their R8 compound.

 

I assume you're running aluminum finned drums...?

 

Rear brake adjustment is critical too. Dragging then off by a click or even too, but...now that I'm thinking of it, I wonder if a residual valve might help too.

 

I found a problem with our Sprite race car rear brakes last weekend. The springs that hold the shoes together were too long, and causing the shoes to drag on the drums ever so slightly. It wasn't a problem with the springs. It was the new shoes which had longer slots for the springs. I bent the springs to fit, but I heard other guys say they weld up the slots. Maybe have a look at that on your 510.

2 hours ago, iceman510 said:

Good points Matt. My race car has both the pedal adjuster on the masters and a front rear in-car adjuster.  I have not messed with them much.  Just ran RA on Hoosier R7s (first time for me) switching from Toyo RA1s, and had adjusted the rear brake shoes also.  I was wondering if I would need to dabble with the adjustment of the brake bias, but it seemed ok.  A bit darty coming into turn 5, but after that straight and the high speeds I was not surprised.  

 

Jeff, with which tires are you experiencing flatspotting?  Any particular corner or front vs. rear?

 

[Ooph!]

13 hours ago, iceman510 said:

Good points Matt. My race car has both the pedal adjuster on the masters and a front rear in-car adjuster.  I have not messed with them much.  Just ran RA on Hoosier R7s (first time for me) switching from Toyo RA1s, and had adjusted the rear brake shoes also.  I was wondering if I would need to dabble with the adjustment of the brake bias, but it seemed ok.  A bit darty coming into turn 5, but after that straight and the high speeds I was not surprised.  

 

Jeff, with which tires are you experiencing flatspotting?  Any particular corner or front vs. rear?

 

You have a balance bar adjustment and an adjustable proportioning valve? I think you really only need one or the other.

[iceman510]

15 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Are you locking up the fronts? Rear drums can be made to work well. One thing we used to do was to cut the shoes with a sawzall to make blocks of friction material. That helped a lot, especially in the wet. Also, you can send cores to Porterfield to have them lined with their R8 compound.

 

I assume you're running aluminum finned drums...?

 

 

I presume you are asking Jeff.  I think they have a disk conversion on their car.

 

I am still running drums, and yes 240Z aluminum finned.

[iceman510]

5 hours ago, Ooph! said:

 

You have a balance bar adjustment and an adjustable proportioning valve? I think you really only need one or the other.

 

Yes.  I didn't build the car, bought it that way. I guess it's maybe for fine tuning? I am curious about that too and will take a look this winter when I do some modifications to the brake lines.

Edited September 29, 2023 by iceman510

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Balance bars are adjustable at the pedals, but can be cable operated inside the car. It just depends on how it's been set up.

[Icehouse]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:10 PM, Ooph! said:

It may be possible BUT is it wise? I'm thinking liability.

I don't recall anyone adding ABS or Air bags to a classic without body / chassis swapping.

Depending on the rules written for the class you are in adding it to a race car is possible because the driver takes full responsibility for safety.

 

 

The Mazda dude's put this system on there cars and have amazing results.  If the system fails it just goes back to standard brakes.  Which we are pretty decent at using.  Our class has no rules besides safety.  Any motor, any brakes any car.  They will kick you off the track if you are to fast.  Make the closing speeds of the slow cars to big.  Which makes sense.  

[Icehouse]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:57 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Yeah, I'd figure out another way to control the braking. Different pad compounds, brake bias, master cylinder size, etc.

 

A smaller master would give more braking feel. Maybe try that.

 

Definitely should have a brake bias (proportioning valve). Either the kind you can adjust in-car while driving, or the triple master setup. The set-it-and-forget-it types are great if you don't mind making a few pit stops and opening the hood.

 

 

We've done all that.  Z32 calipers front and rear with Z31 rotors the biggest master you can get and nice Porterfield pads.  Also an adjuster within driver reach.  It's more the emergency times or driver error where the ABS would be nice.  The car is a beast.  

[Icehouse]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:31 AM, iceman510 said:

Good points Matt. My race car has both the pedal adjuster on the masters and a front rear in-car adjuster.  I have not messed with them much.  Just ran RA on Hoosier R7s (first time for me) switching from Toyo RA1s, and had adjusted the rear brake shoes also.  I was wondering if I would need to dabble with the adjustment of the brake bias, but it seemed ok.  A bit darty coming into turn 5, but after that straight and the high speeds I was not surprised.  

 

Jeff, with which tires are you experiencing flatspotting?  Any particular corner or front vs. rear?

 

 

Our series requires the we use Hankook RS4's awesome tires for life on the track.  I think since road racing is such high speed it doesn't take more to kill a pair of tires.