510 Race Car Build

[paradime]

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

You have a specific car in mind? Or you're just expecting something to show up at your door...?

 

Thanks. I feel like I should have stuck with the 510s. The main reason being, most of the 510 owners now days don't really understand the true historical significance of the car. Nor do they understand "the right way" to build one. Feels like I'm stirring the pot here, but I'm not. It's a thing. New guys are viewing through a different lens, which is understandable.

 

This pot needs to be stirred Matt. Truly, the 510 has a rich and storied racing history. It also owns the title of being the original Japanese tuner car. I agree that far too many have fallen victim to ignorance and disrespect for it's greater significance. In terms of esthetic integrity, I believe the Pininfarina body design is absolute perfection, and none of the 510s I've built were side skirted or flared for that reason.

 

That said, building one "the right way" presupposes some standard of the given purpose it's being built for, such as vintage road racing. Beyond that, with the availability of performance parts, 510s have been street modified since the beginning. For better or worse, there is no standard to follow other than one's own judgement. IMO as a dirty old fart, hacking up a clean example to make it a V8 drifter, going all bosozoku on it, or destroying it's chassis integrity in the pursuit of stance is a crime against humanity. It would appear superficial form over actual substance has become the ethos of this generation. While there are kids who get it, fortunately most of these kids who don't can't afford to express thier neo-shallow creativity on a 510 these days. LOL

 

Although vintage racing is not my thing, I have total respect for anyone willing to tackle the riggers of doing one "the right way". The 510 is truly blessed with knowledgable and helpful care takers like Dave R, Troy, DatsunMike here, okayfine on the510realm, and dedicated builders like you. We're lucky you're sharing your journey back home to the 510, where you belong.  

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

19 hours ago, Diabolic kustoms said:

Holy shit. Where did you get that pic? That must have been 1992 or 1993. And that's Tim's house. See the VFR1000 in the garage? I always thought Tim was crazy for riding that beast.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

The pot definitely needs to be stirred.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

16 hours ago, paradime said:

 

This pot needs to be stirred Matt. Truly, the 510 has a rich and storied racing history. It also owns the title of being the original Japanese tuner car. I agree that far too many have fallen victim to ignorance and disrespect for it's greater significance. In terms of esthetic integrity, I believe the Pininfarina body design is absolute perfection, and none of the 510s I've built were side skirted or flared for that reason.

 

That said, building one "the right way" presupposes some standard of the given purpose it's being built for, such as vintage road racing. Beyond that, with the availability of performance parts, 510s have been street modified since the beginning. For better or worse, there is no standard to follow other than one's own judgement. IMO as a dirty old fart, hacking up a clean example to make it a V8 drifter, going all bosozoku on it, or destroying it's chassis integrity in the pursuit of stance is a crime against humanity. It would appear superficial form over actual substance has become the ethos of this generation. While there are kids who get it, fortunately most of these kids who don't can't afford to express thier neo-shallow creativity on a 510 these days. LOL

 

Although vintage racing is not my thing, I have total respect for anyone willing to tackle the riggers of doing one "the right way". The 510 is truly blessed with knowledgable and helpful care takers like Dave R, Troy, DatsunMike here, okayfine on the510realm, and dedicated builders like you. We're lucky you're sharing your journey back home to the 510, where you belong.  

You bring up some interesting points worth debating.

 

When I take a car or truck in, I do a good evaluation of the car's condition, level of completeness and originality. I then try to figure out what I could sell it for. The answer to these questions factor into how I build it. If a car is very original, and in beautiful condition, it obviously needs to be left alone, so I figure out what I can do to add value. This usually means a complete mechanical restoration while leaving the body alone. If it's completely original but in horrible condition, the door to mods is quickly flung wide open, but, that's where the value comes into play. If it's a valuable make/model, retaining originality brings the best possible return. If it's a "nothing car", like my '65 Sprite, restoring it to original becomes more expensive than the car is worth, and thus, opens the door to mods. It's actually cheaper to mod a car than it is to restore it to original. Case in point, my neighbor wanted to sell me his 1950 Cadillac for only a couple grand. The body was in great shape, but it had been sitting outside for about a decade. Restoring a 1950 Caddy drivetrain, and maintaining originality, is very expensive, so I had planned on a retro ride with a new chassis and LS power. Ultimately I passed on the car, but the case remains as a mental note which I circle back on when making these decisions. Another example of the perplexity in choosing a path is my father in law's 240Z. It is so original, and so clean, with so few miles, that I would never touch it. Honestly, I kind of don't even want to have the car when it finally makes it's way to our garage, becuase what fun is a stock 240Z? I'll have to build another shop space just to store it so it doesn't get damaged by my day-to-day. It will be more of a burden than a joy. Ok, that's harsh, but I think you guys know what I mean.

 

What is the right way to build a car? For racing, obviously. Seriously though, vintage racing is the best platform for revealing the car's true potential. What I mean is, there's the car's exterior design, suspension design, powertrain design and durability, which are all inherent to the car's original "clean sheet" concept. Every single engineer/designer who sketches a car or truck thinks of potential mods as the pencil meets paper. There is a logical progression from inception to the wildest iteration of that car. The "new" Mini was based on such a progression. The designers pretended that the car never ceased production and tried to visualize what the car would have looked like and how it would have performed in the various model changes over the years, and what they came up with made sense in those terms.

 

Back to the subject of racing though. I'm sure ytou guys are all familiar with the term "day one mods", right? Day one mods are what happens to a car or truck the day it is purchased. New wheels, suspension, body add-ons, etc. Those mods are all contemporary to the car. True vintage racing cars are the highest level of expressing the day one mods. Imagine taking a brand new 510 off the showroom floor and bringing it home to build a race car. You're going to use parts and materials and methods available to you in that day. You're going to steal parts from other vehicle makes, like the Porsche calipers, and even other segments of the vehicle industry, like the Jones mechanical tachs, which were used in boats, and the Stewart Warner gauges, which were used in heavy trucks and busses. When building a vintage race car now, all these parts need to be sourced from the era. Now to further muddy the discussion, take the race car through it's lifespan and figure out what would that car look like after fifteen or twenty years of racing. In the case of the 510, that's a 1992 SCCA GT4 car. It had box flares, disc brakes all the way around. Coilovers in the rear, and some of the chassis structure has been replaced with tubing to create a tube chassis. Dry sump oiling, heat exchangers, sealed intake air boxes, etc. In some cases, like with Don Nimi's beautiful GT3 racer, the body was completely removable from the chassis, and almost all composite materials, with the exception of the roof panel, which was OEM steel.

 

If you're still reading, then you're probably confused as hell right now. Which is good. It means you're thinking. I love my job for that very reason. I get to think of all the ways a car or truck can be built. I explore the history and keep aware of what other guys are doing (so I can do something else).

 

There is no wrong way to build a car, but there is definitely a right way. The right way is a natural progression of the potential of the original design.

[metalmonkey47]

22 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

You have a specific car in mind? Or you're just expecting something to show up at your door...?

 

Thanks. I feel like I should have stuck with the 510s. The main reason being, most of the 510 owners now days don't really understand the true historical significance of the car. Nor do they understand "the right way" to build one. Feels like I'm stirring the pot here, but I'm not. It's a thing. New guys are viewing through a different lens, which is understandable.

I've been thinking about 510's a lot lately. Buddy local to me is selling his collection to move south so he has a 210 Wagon, 810 Maxima, and a few 510 projects I thought about picking through. I've got a coworker that has a very nice SR-510 that I thought about trying to snatch up since he doesn't drive it.

I met Peter Brock, John Morton, and a bunch of the crew (actually had dinner with John) and had the opportunity to see the BRE 510, which has kind of brought me closer to wanting a 510 just because of the historical significance. 

I would also love to have another 620 to build, starting from a cleaner more original chassis but that has been tough to find. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by metalmonkey47

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Pics to support my arguments.

 

Pop in law's '72 Z car.

 

 

Don Nimi's 510.

 

 

 

Lit from the era. Obviously, I'd take the race car over the stock 510.

 

 

Some of my collection of vintage steering wheels. Hmmm, which one will I use?

 

[Ooph!]

The only confusion for me is changing it away from what it was in 1983 to be a vintage racer, shouldn't it be brought back as it was? With the box flares etc?

[paradime]

50 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

You bring up some interesting points worth debating.

 

When I take a car or truck in, I do a good evaluation of the car's condition, level of completeness and originality. I then try to figure out what I could sell it for. The answer to these questions factor into how I build it. If a car is very original, and in beautiful condition, it obviously needs to be left alone, so I figure out what I can do to add value. This usually means a complete mechanical restoration while leaving the body alone. If it's completely original but in horrible condition, the door to mods is quickly flung wide open, but, that's where the value comes into play. If it's a valuable make/model, retaining originality brings the best possible return. If it's a "nothing car", like my '65 Sprite, restoring it to original becomes more expensive than the car is worth, and thus, opens the door to mods. It's actually cheaper to mod a car than it is to restore it to original. Case in point, my neighbor wanted to sell me his 1950 Cadillac for only a couple grand. The body was in great shape, but it had been sitting outside for about a decade. Restoring a 1950 Caddy drivetrain, and maintaining originality, is very expensive, so I had planned on a retro ride with a new chassis and LS power. Ultimately I passed on the car, but the case remains as a mental note which I circle back on when making these decisions. Another example of the perplexity in choosing a path is my father in law's 240Z. It is so original, and so clean, with so few miles, that I would never touch it. Honestly, I kind of don't even want to have the car when it finally makes it's way to our garage, becuase what fun is a stock 240Z? I'll have to build another shop space just to store it so it doesn't get damaged by my day-to-day. It will be more of a burden than a joy. Ok, that's harsh, but I think you guys know what I mean.

 

What is the right way to build a car? For racing, obviously. Seriously though, vintage racing is the best platform for revealing the car's true potential. What I mean is, there's the car's exterior design, suspension design, powertrain design and durability, which are all inherent to the car's original "clean sheet" concept. Every single engineer/designer who sketches a car or truck thinks of potential mods as the pencil meets paper. There is a logical progression from inception to the wildest iteration of that car. The "new" Mini was based on such a progression. The designers pretended that the car never ceased production and tried to visualize what the car would have looked like and how it would have performed in the various model changes over the years, and what they came up with made sense in those terms.

 

Back to the subject of racing though. I'm sure ytou guys are all familiar with the term "day one mods", right? Day one mods are what happens to a car or truck the day it is purchased. New wheels, suspension, body add-ons, etc. Those mods are all contemporary to the car. True vintage racing cars are the highest level of expressing the day one mods. Imagine taking a brand new 510 off the showroom floor and bringing it home to build a race car. You're going to use parts and materials and methods available to you in that day. You're going to steal parts from other vehicle makes, like the Porsche calipers, and even other segments of the vehicle industry, like the Jones mechanical tachs, which were used in boats, and the Stewart Warner gauges, which were used in heavy trucks and busses. When building a vintage race car now, all these parts need to be sourced from the era. Now to further muddy the discussion, take the race car through it's lifespan and figure out what would that car look like after fifteen or twenty years of racing. In the case of the 510, that's a 1992 SCCA GT4 car. It had box flares, disc brakes all the way around. Coilovers in the rear, and some of the chassis structure has been replaced with tubing to create a tube chassis. Dry sump oiling, heat exchangers, sealed intake air boxes, etc. In some cases, like with Don Nimi's beautiful GT3 racer, the body was completely removable from the chassis, and almost all composite materials, with the exception of the roof panel, which was OEM steel.

 

If you're still reading, then you're probably confused as hell right now. Which is good. It means you're thinking. I love my job for that very reason. I get to think of all the ways a car or truck can be built. I explore the history and keep aware of what other guys are doing (so I can do something else).

 

There is no wrong way to build a car, but there is definitely a right way. The right way is a natural progression of the potential of the original design.

Your logical thought process is truly undebatable. May the wind be at your back in carrying this build to the finish line. It's a privilege to be in your pit crew for this project. Throw me a wrench and let me know how I can help.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ron M.

[Diabolic kustoms]

2 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Holy shit. Where did you get that pic? That must have been 1992 or 1993. And that's Tim's house. See the VFR1000 in the garage? I always thought Tim was crazy for riding that beast.

I think my brothers girlfriend took the pic, I think this was right about when I bought your old 68 4 door. this was before tim wrecked the 510 and painted the rear blue. There was a picture with this of your teal/blue 510 but I can't find it

 

I want that multicolor wheel.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

1 minute ago, Diabolic kustoms said:

I think my brothers girlfriend took the pic, I think this was right about when I bought your old 68 4 door. this was before tim wrecked the 510 and painted the rear blue. There was a picture with this of your teal/blue 510 but I can't find it

 

I want that multicolor wheel.

Nate, that was your brother's name, right?  It's been forever. I've moved, you've moved, the context is lost.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

48 minutes ago, Ooph! said:

The only confusion for me is changing it away from what it was in 1983 to be a vintage racer, shouldn't it be brought back as it was? With the box flares etc?

That is a hugely valid point. Lots of guys trouble over that very decision.

 

Back in the '90s, there was a 1958 Ferrari Testarossa that I think Phil Hill drove. It was being restored, and the community at large, at the time, couldn't see the value of racing mods. There were holes cut in the footwell, made at the race track, to aid in driver cooling, that one camp thought should be preserved, while the majority of the people involved thought the holes should be "fixed". What is fixed? It's part of the history of the car. Part of the story. I think the story is way more important than the bodywork. At the time, vintage racers were way less valuable than a similar car in street trim.

 

Another example is that recent barn find Ferrari 500 Mondial (sorry I keep throwing up Ferrari examples...) that was a complete wreck. The bodywork on the car in it's current state is not the bodywork that came on the car. It had been rebodied during it's racing career. So which body is more valuable? It will likely be rebodied again back to the original body, and that's a shame.

 

Another anecdote you guys might enjoy. And I hate sounding long winded, but I'll tell it anyway.

 

A long time ago, there was a fight over two Jag E-type lightweights that had the same VIN. What happened was, one car was up for auction when it was brought to light that there was another car with the same VIN. It was a valuable car, having been driven by Briggs Cunningham, and during it's life had been badly wrecked and subsequently rebodied. Over the years, someone collected the wrecked pieces and built an entire car out of them and that was the car being auctioned. The case actually went to court. Even the judge couldn't make a ruling because both cars had legitimate back stories - there was the original car that came from the factory with the VIN, and there was the car that lived on to fight another day. Both arguments are good. But again, the car world argued over which car was the more important car - the one that was rebuilt out of original parts, or the car that continued on after the wreck and kept racing with a successful driver? The ending is rather funny. The owner of the continuation car bought the rebuilt car ultimately ending the debate. (Note - technically the cars didn't have a VIN. They had chassis numbers. The body was merely a part of the car.)

 

So yeah, I think about hat a lot. If the car exists in any form with history, you really have a hard decision to make.

 

We have a race at Sears Point this weekend, and I am bringing my unfinished '62 Sprite race car to the race so I can have it go through tech inspection before I put any paint on it. I called the guy I bought it from and talked him into showing up at the race so he can see the car, but also so he can give me some guidance on certain details of the car. When I got it, it was literally a shell, and a badly crumpled one at that, so I've had to interpret a lot of details along the way. Hopefully he appreciates my interpretation.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

48 minutes ago, paradime said:

Your logical thought process is truly undebatable. May the wind be at your back in carrying this build to the finish line. It's a privilege to be in your pit crew for this project. Throw me a wrench and let me know how I can help.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ron M.

We're racing our MG midget at Sears Point this weekend. Whey don't you come on up? Here are some pics so you know who to look for.

 

 

[Diabolic kustoms]

57 minutes ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Nate, that was your brother's name, right?  It's been forever. I've moved, you've moved, the context is lost.

I'm nathan, my brother was aran. 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Oh yeah. I thought Aaron, but Aran. Got it. Nice to hear from you.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

We had an excellent weekend. The car took quite a bit of work to get up front, but we eventually set fastest qualifying, and took first in both the Saturday and Sunday races. I think my dad doesn't completely understand why we want a car that's so fragile and finicky, but I've been explaining to him that if we want a durable car, we won't be running up front. He's starting to get it.

 

Anyway, there were some pretty awesome Datsun/Nissan cars there this weekend, including the mass of BS 510 cars that usually show up, an ex Nasport GT3 240sx, plus Rob Fuller had his GTU 240Z which is lightning fast and sounds spectacular. There were a couple Roadsters too but I didn't get a chance to see them. One of them was a factory built racer, or some similar pedigree. The pièce de résistance was a Bob Leitzinger 240SX IMSA GTU car, which pitted right next to us. I got to know the driver and crew over the weekend and spent a while talking with the owner/driver about what it's like to own a car like that. In the practical sense. Like, how many guys does it take to run the car, how often does this and that need looking at or maintenance. The chief mechanic told me the car was built to be tough. He showed me a front wheel bearing and it was about 4 inches round. I think he said it was from an F350.

 

I ran into two other long time Datsun/Nissan guys there - Larry Hansen who is famous for his Eureka High School GT3 cars of the '80s and '90s. He still runs every now and then. With Larry was Frank Honsowetz who was there to help sort out an issue with the fuel injection on the IMSA 240SX. I thought it was him, but I hadn't seen him for about 25 years, or more, but I finally went up and said - are you Frank? He remembered me from back then because of the amount of time I spent on the phone with him every week discussing and ordering parts. He's in his mid 70s now and is still going strong, and actually working, for Ed Pink.

 

Oh, I almost forgot the reason for the update - the CSRG guys are giving me a "hard no" on the GT4 510 build, but I told them I wasn't going to let it go. They finally said that if I can build a strong case, backed up with history, photos, etc, they would allow it. Rob Fuller was the one hardliner who over the weekend kept telling me to stop beating my head against the wall and build a BS car instead. So maybe green light? Probably not. Either way, I'm sure the GT cars will eventually be accepted, and I want to be the first one out there doing it.

 

Pics to come shortly. I have a video that's about 30 seconds long, but I don't think my PB account will support it. Anyone have any ideas how to upload a video?

[Crashtd420]

Congratulations on the weekend....

 

The only way I'm aware to post a video is to make a YouTube video then link that....  I tried before with picture hosting sights but it didn't work... at least not for me..

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I do have a Youtube account, but it's been so long since I've logged in, I might have to recover it. Or start another account.

 

Correction - Frank Honsowetz OWNS Ed Pink Racing Engines. I knew he had a connection with Ed Pink from the past, but just now reading some blog, he is the owner. For those of you who don't know who Frank Honsowetz is, he was director and top exec of Nissan Motorsports. He is also the guy who is responsible for saving the #46 BRE 510 from the crusher. He also wrote the book on L motors that you all have in your garage... or bathroom.

[paradime]

Creating a new YT account and uploading a vid is fairly simple. If you need some help, I'd be happy to walk you through it.

Edited September 11, 2023 by paradime

[Ooph!]

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I do have a Youtube account, but it's been so long since I've logged in, I might have to recover it. Or start another account.

 

Correction - Frank Honsowetz OWNS Ed Pink Racing Engines. I knew he had a connection with Ed Pink from the past, but just now reading some blog, he is the owner. For those of you who don't know who Frank Honsowetz is, he was director and top exec of Nissan Motorsports. He is also the guy who is responsible for saving the #46 BRE 510 from the crusher. He also wrote the book on L motors that you all have in your garage... or bathroom.

 

Ed Pink is being eminent domain'ed out of his shop in LA unless things have changed.

A friend was a friend of his and we visited the shop back in the day, he looked as old 40 years ago as he does now to me.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Video of big bore cars. Check out the IMSA 240SX, the GT3 240SX and the GTU 240Z.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[five1oh]

i vote for ban.....this is PAGE 2 and the FORTY FIFTH post and still not a SINGLE picture of said car OP claims to have and will be building..........................

 

I mean.................COME ON!  I am tired of checking this thread for a picture or progress

Edited September 12, 2023 by five1oh

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

1 hour ago, five1oh said:

i vote for ban.....this is PAGE 2 and the FORTY FIFTH post and still not a SINGLE picture of said car OP claims to have and will be building..........................

 

I mean.................COME ON!  I am tired of checking this thread for a picture or progress

Progress? I just bought the damn thing. Oh, I did move it from one side of the shop to the other. Does that count?

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Here's a pic. Crappy car, waiting to go through the ringer and get spit out shiny and new.

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

You can see my burn barrel in the background. @Thomas Perkins

[paradime]