R1 Carbs (lots of pics)

[Kirden]

It's my B210, but it is a long way off and all of my builds are on hiatus untill this calm down with the family. Just wanted to share cause I had ordered these prior to shit hitting the fan.

[MantisX620]

Where are you guys buying your float bowl gaskets for these? The cheapest I can find is about 80 bucks for 4. Is this normal?

 

MantisX

[Stupid_fast]

You're doing it wrong.

 

$39.31 shipped ordered on 2/10/14

 

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/yamaha-o-ring-4xv-14562-00-00-part.html

 

4XV-14562-00-00

 

 

Interesting- when I ordered mine on 3/23/13 it was $33.95 shipped.

[MantisX620]

Woohoo! Thanks sir! The next time im in Oakland, the beer is on me!

 

MantisX

[Stupid_fast]

Yay! Preferably after October, then it can be legal.   :baby:

 

 

 

Note for the thread- my car was running way lean ... I am up to 210 main jets and it still lean L20b with .490 cam.  Finishing the tune this weekend. 

[MantisX620]

 

After finally putting an exhaust on it. I can hear the carbs now lol.

[Stupid_fast]

Seems i forgot to tighten one of the float bowl drain plugs on my last tuning run ... found them at 2wheelpros for $6.29 4KP-14191-00-00 FLOAT BOWL DRAIN SCREW PLUG

 

 

 

you can find parts diagrams here for the YZF-R1 carburetor

http://www.yamahapartspitstop.com/oemparts/a/yam/50043f74f8700209bc78e18c/carburetor

[Stupid_fast]

Float height doesn't really matter afterall... has barely any effect on mixtures.  Set to 6mm factory and leave it...

 

 

Up to #25 pilot jets pop at cruise nearly gone but still there.  More adjustments are needed for this setup.  I suspect needle profile has a lot to do with my low end rich problems. 

[DADZSUN]

Selling my initial prototype Bogg KA24e R1 manifold.

 

For those who are interested in trying this setup, this would be faster and cheaper than ordering from the UK.

 

See the Ratsun Engine Classifieds. I'd add a direct link but for some reason it's a real PITA to do so.

[MantisX620]

Dadzsun rules! Shipped me my L series manifold very quickly and in great shape.

[Parkinglotslider521]

ok everyone, I swear I read EVERY page, but i have a few simple questions. 

#1- main jets for an l16 would be 1.6mm correct?

#2- do the needles need to be shimmed at all?

#3- anyone have a length for a throttle cable so i can get one made? 

#4- do i have to change the pilot jet?

 

I'm doing the install next weekend (hopefully) but anything that will make this as much of a plug and play as possible would be helpful. Gotta order 2 needles as the guy that shipped the carbs to me shipped them disassembled and the needles turned into boomerangs. ill post pics here and in my build thread.

[Kirden]

Ok, I personally have not tuned my carbs yet (they are shipped out today) but here is the infor directly from Stephen Bogg at Bogg Bros:

 

Hi Jacob

 

Ok here we go ....this is what we usually do to the carbs

 

First we take the tops and diaphrams out then remove the float bowls and make sure the float bowls are nice and clean.

Remove the pilot and main jets...hold the pilot jet up to a window and make sure you can see light through it..if not we find a bristle from a wire brush pushed through will remove any crud.

Next take the main jets and open up the hole to 2.1mm which is equivalent to a 210 (2.2mm = 220 etc etc)which will be a good starting point for you.

Re assemble the jets into the carbs and put the float bowls back on...while you have the carbs upside down screw the idle mixture screws all the way in and count 3 turns out to richen up the mixture on idle.If when you get the engine running it is still weak you may need to go up a size on the pilot jets as the mixture screws will start to lose their tension and have been known to fall out.

Now using some long nose pliers remove the white plastic top hat from the middle of the plastic slide(be careful here as there is a small spring underneath this)now remove the needle and check that the circlip is in the middle groove so allowing you some fine tuning one way or the other when you get it going.

Replace the slides into the carbs and put the plastic cap back on and that's about it really!!.

There are also a lot of pipes on R1 carbs but all can be left open to atmosphere as the only one you need is the fuel pipe underneath the float bowls.....set fuel pressure at 3psi max and you should have no problems.

 

Thanks

 

Steve   

 

 

Hope that helps. This is for an A15 with slight porting and a turbo though, so the jet suggestion may be a bit high.

[Stupid_fast]

For baseline tune you shouldn't have to touch the pilots. 

 

 

i'm having issues with pilots I believe its due to having a cam with a lot of duration throwing off the vacuum.

I will explain better how pilot tuning works once my setup is actually dialed in.

 

My car has been sitting in storage lately. 

[Kirden]

He doesn't change the pilots at all, just cleans them using a small wire off a wire brush. You just push the birstle through the pilot jet to clean any deposits. The main jet is the one you modify. For a forced induction 1.5l he suggests 2.1mm jetting. That guide is assuming you have a set of used carbs off of a running bike, not new/refurb/rebuilt carbs.

[DADZSUN]

Finally got my R1/KA24e running. There were a few brain farts by yours truly but the engine made it through.

 

Frankly the damn thing really wants to run, start-up compared to my prior L20 and L16 (with R1s) is really easy. Cruising in a big gear with throttle roll-on and hard acceleration are both solid. Some very light burbling on throttle deceleration but I only heard it when I actually tried to listen. 

 

I haven't done any real tuning just yet, but I ran 22 mains as per Bogg's suggestion, and 22.5 pilots (two sizes up from OEM) with 3.5 turns out. Premium gas with 8.6 compression ratio meant I could crank up ignition timing to 15BTDC. Engine is pretty much OEM with only a JWT cam. Wideband will be hooked up in a week or two. I plan to run MegaJolt next year to really get her tuned but the L series electronic distributor works pretty well for now. Velocity stacks are Webber DCOE 45.

 

http://youtu.be/bW0xVBA9hsU

[Stupid_fast]

Nice.

 

Please post your tuning experience.

 

 

curious what needles are in it.  Both sets of my R1 carbs have 6-position for the needle adjust


Are those aftermarket air horns specifically for an R1 ?

[DADZSUN]

So I installed my Innovate wide band O2 sensor today. As per my driving impressions, it looks like my initial jetting was pretty close.

 

Setup: 22 mains and 22.5 pilots with 3.5 turns out (any less and it starts to cough). Needles at OEM setup. Premium gas with 8.6 compression ratio, ignition timing 15BTDC, JWT cam, Webber DCOE 45 velocity stacks, Pipercross air filter.

 

Air fuel ratios at 28 degrees Celsius:

Idle: 800 RPM steady with occasional miss, 14-15:1

Cruising: 55-60MPH, ~2500 RPM, 12-12.5

Rolling throttle: 5th gear starting at 2500 RPM then pin it 11 rolling up to 12:1

Pin it: Start 2nd gear through to 5 shifting at 6000RPM, steady 13:1

 

So it looks like the jetting is not too bad. I might play with the needles to lean the cruising/mid-range a bit but being from Canada the temperatures are usually lower which can leans things out quick. 

 

Driving Impressions: This car idles/cruises/changes speeds at all RPMs very nicely. You'd have a hard time telling this was carbed with the exception of the velocity stacks. I was thinking of getting a MegaJolt to squeeze a little more but I'm starting to wonder if the installation/costs/tuning would be worth it. Torque might be a little less than I envisioned but when I look at the speedo I'm constantly caught by surprise at the rate of acceleration - especially over 60MPH. This feels like a typical 0-60 in the high 6 / low 7 car - shifting to 3rd gear to get to 60MPH doesn't help the stopwatch. There's enough power to have some fun but not so much that you have to be paranoid driving in the wet.

 

Issues: The cooling system in the car is screwed up. Initially I blamed the thermostat not opening (and removed it altogether) but after getting todays A/F ratios the cap blew coolant (no overflow tank yet). The eBay oversized rad is fed by both hoses on the passenger side end tank. In order from coldest to hottest: 1) Driver-side rad end tank, 2) passenger side end tank, 3) hose entering the rad (top) from thermostat housing (quite hot but still touchable), 4) Hose exiting bottom of rad and feeding intake manifold - extremely hot and can't be touched. WTF!?!?!

 

The car also has a hot-start issue. WAY harder than cold starts. I thought it was maybe the carbs heat-soaking and evaporating fuel but today they were fairly cool to the touch. I'm wondering if the cause of the issue is the coolant mentioned above.

[VintageRice]

Finally got my R1/KA24e running. There were a few brain farts by yours truly but the engine made it through.

 

Frankly the damn thing really wants to run, start-up compared to my prior L20 and L16 (with R1s) is really easy. Cruising in a big gear with throttle roll-on and hard acceleration are both solid. Some very light burbling on throttle deceleration but I only heard it when I actually tried to listen. 

 

I haven't done any real tuning just yet, but I ran 22 mains as per Bogg's suggestion, and 22.5 pilots (two sizes up from OEM) with 3.5 turns out. Premium gas with 8.6 compression ratio meant I could crank up ignition timing to 15BTDC. Engine is pretty much OEM with only a JWT cam. Wideband will be hooked up in a week or two. I plan to run MegaJolt next year to really get her tuned but the L series electronic distributor works pretty well for now. Velocity stacks are Webber DCOE 45.

 

http://youtu.be/bW0xVBA9hsU

Sounds and looks amazing good job!  Would love to have that intake......jealous.

 

 

Gotta get more time to play with mine some more. Drove it today about 50 miles. It may pop and fart a bit but all I can say is its consistent. No surprises which is always nice.

[DADZSUN]

You can have this intake manifold - or it's prototype sister which I have for sale.

 

Are you guys running your coolant so that it leaves the block from the intake manifold and to the rad intake, so the thermostat is fed by the rad exhaust hose? It seems @ss backwards but looking at the coolant diagram for KA24e that's how they appear to have it. I've since flipped the hoses around.

[Logical1]

Are you guys running your coolant so that it leaves the block from the intake manifold and to the rad intake, so the thermostat is fed by the rad exhaust hose? It seems @ss backwards but looking at the coolant diagram for KA24e that's how they appear to have it. I've since flipped the hoses around.

 

I am very curious as to this also. I'm finishing up my KA24DE R1 build and noticed the lower rad port on the engine is from the thermostat. Also the water pump is right next to that... I cannot believe it feeds the water pump as this goes against everything I know of thermostats... So I'm guessing the water pump 'sucks' water from the port on the intake manifold through block and out past the thermostat. Seems odd, but I'm used to being an L series guy!

 

Also, I'm finalizing my intake manifold for the DE and let me tell you: The Bogg brothers manifold is worth every penny! After lathing my inlets to match the carbs and 1.3 million compound angle cuts, interior smoothing, and Tigging this bitch up. I would charge $800+ to build one! (It is one sexy hooker though)

[Jester]

I wanna see some pics of this sexy hooker! 

[Logical1]

I wanna see some pics of this sexy hooker! 

 

 

I never show my hookers off until they are cleaned up :devil:

[VintageRice]

Dude.  Show it.   Now.     

 

 

 

Or else........

[Stupid_fast]

Issues: The cooling system in the car is screwed up. Initially I blamed the thermostat not opening (and removed it altogether) but after getting todays A/F ratios the cap blew coolant (no overflow tank yet). The eBay oversized rad is fed by both hoses on the passenger side end tank. In order from coldest to hottest: 1) Driver-side rad end tank, 2) passenger side end tank, 3) hose entering the rad (top) from thermostat housing (quite hot but still touchable), 4) Hose exiting bottom of rad and feeding intake manifold - extremely hot and can't be touched. WTF!?!?!

 

The car also has a hot-start issue. WAY harder than cold starts. I thought it was maybe the carbs heat-soaking and evaporating fuel but today they were fairly cool to the touch. I'm wondering if the cause of the issue is the coolant mentioned above.

 

 

Those mixtures look nice.  agree cruise could use a little lean.  top end and idle seem nice. 

 

Since you have a closed loop system try warming it up with the radiator cap off to bleed out any bubbles in the system.  I know its strange, but it works. 

 

Make sure jiggle valve in the thermostat goes the right way around.  I had an issue with autozone/oreilly ones they're all in backwards from the factory.  I just cut them out usually. 

 

After those two things all my cooling problems were fixed on L series stuff. 

 

 

 

@Logical1, I wanna see a dyno graph of that DE when you're done. :)

[Logical1]

So, I have a choice... I have mocked up several versions of the intake manifold hoping to make use of a stock KA intake cut up for the flange(free). Unfortunately my fabrication shop is 50 miles away from my dime, I have done my best to measure and devise a jig to build off of but without the car at the shop to work off of it has been somewhat of a best guess situation. I wanted to keep in mind trying to make the intake flow as level or downward and not have any upward angles or low points where fuel could pool up. I also wanted to try and get the float bowls as level as possible for best performance. With the R1's output angle this requires you to really rake the angle up and with the spread of the KA intake you need to angle all of the intake pipes inward to a much tighter pattern. I don't have a mandrel bender or any kind of casting gear so I'm stuck cutting straight pipe in multiple angles to make everything happen. My first over optimistic attempted I post a few pages back but upon trying that out on the car it was obviously to high for the hood. I did some of that math stuff and even measured a few more times and tried again:

 

 

 

The float bowls are PERFECT!!! however, the carbs are still way to damn tall for the hood. I was hoping to not cut a hole in the hood and make a scoop, but because I'm using the KA intake (cut down) there is a upward pitch to where I can start attaching my piping and even cutting a sharp downward angle is not enough to keep the carbs low enough. I could have a blank intake flange laser/waterjet cut but I would have to start from scratch, run custom water piping (trouble) and it would cost more $$$. I tried reducing the angle of the carbs so they would sit more even but they are STILL to tall and the float bowls are more angled than I would like:

 

 

So The choices are:

 

1. Cut a hole in the hood and make a scoop. (hoods are getting harder to find!)

2. Buy a flange and start over. ($$$+time and I miss my dime!)

3. Try it with angled float bowls and possible fuel pooling. (Meh...)

4. ???