R1 Carbs (lots of pics)

[Stupid_fast]

Is anyone running ethanol mix on their R1 carbs?

 

So when I picked up my R1 needle valve set (P/N 4km-14107-15 includes full needle vavle seat with screen and O ring along with new needle vavle), the technician told me not to use high octane gas than includes ethanol mix on the carbs.

 

I'm aware of the potential rubber degradation issue but apparent the problem goes beyond that with ethanol, like fuel mixing/atomization. 

 

 

After some thought I realized that many of my issues on the carbs appeared shortly after running then on my l20. It's a high compression engine and I was forced to run high octane (confirmed to have ethanol mix) compared to my low octane L16 which ran flawlessly with the R1 carbs. 

 

Anyone else running ethanol mix? I would assume so since it's pretty much everywhere but I thought I'd ask.  

 

Ethanol mix should require nothing more than a different tune.

 

 

I don't know how to tune for ethanol, but was chatting with my mechanic about it.   Carbs should run fine with it when tuned right.

[DADZSUN]

Quick update, changed to non-ethanol gas then installed new needles and seats. Carbs run much better now.

 

Float heights were are the same for me approx 5mm when fully weighed on the needles (apparently not the way to do it), and about 6.5mm with floats down but not squishing the needle (carbs held at an angle while measuring).

 

I ran a quick test before swapping the seats were I taped a straw to the fuel line. I then blew into the straw when the needles/floats were closed. As expected, there was some leakage heard and seen (bubbles around the seat). The deteriorated condition of the old needle valve seats were further confirmed as the new seats were much more firm to press into the carb, definitely a better seal.

[Stupid_fast]

@DADZSUN, Are those valve seats recommended repair for any set of carbs?  Need to order 4 of those? 

 

It'd be interesting if some of the tuning issues we're having are worn parts.

[DADZSUN]

@DADZSUN, Are those valve seats recommended repair for any set of carbs?  Need to order 4 of those? 

 

It'd be interesting if some of the tuning issues we're having are worn parts.

 

Yes, needle valves and seats are part of the recommended rebuild. I've read they should be replaced as often as every year but that seems excessive IMO.

 

Again, you want to order: "4KM-14107-15-00 NEEDLE VALVE SET". They're approx $15-$20 per, and you want 4 of them. (http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-4KM-14107-15-00.html

)

[DADZSUN]

For the sake of documentation and R1 noobies, here's some more detailed information on the needle valve & seat replacement along with float height check.

 

In the picture below, the needle valve and seat are in the yellow circle. The needle valve's seat can be pulled out with needle nose pilers after the set screw (10 o'clock) is removed. The needle valve is manipulated by the float and it's tang (green circle).

 

To adjust the float height (see red marking which measures the height of the bowl's flange to the highest point on the float), you bend the float's tang up or down. Note that in the orientation of this picture the floats are squishing the needle's 'spring' down and potentially giving false readings (I had 5mm in this setting). The supposed proper way to measure float height (approx 6.5mm for me) is right when the valves close but no weight is on them - in this picture the carbs would have to be rotated towards you about 1/4 turn.

 

 

The second picture is simply how I setup the straw on the fuel line to test the beedle valve and seat's seal. In this position the valves should be closed and no air can be blown in. Pour a little gas around the needle valve & seat area to see any bubbles when you blow. To open the valves, pick up the carbs and rotate 1/4-1/2 turn towards you.

 

[Woody620]

I hope this still fits in this thread but Im having trouble with getting a dizzy to fit my ka for my carb swap. I have both a pertronics l20 dizzy and a napz dizzy, but none of them look anywhere near fitting, and they have a slotted drive instead of the ka's half moon.

 

from left to right its the l20, napz, then stock ka.

 

[Stupid_fast]

AFAIK the L series dizzy only fits on KA with the truck front cover or something like that.

 

 

I know a guy who's done it but don't know the details.  He said it was a D21 motor you could run the L stuff on.

[Farmer Joe]

you take the dist drive from an l20b and swap out the KA one for it. you gotta drop the oil pump to do this.

 

drill and tap 2 new holes to hold down the L-series dist pedestal, and bolt on L-series dist.

 

time it like a L-series at this point.

[Woody620]

alright thanks. back to the junkyard!

[VintageRice]

Here's kind of a step by step in my build thread.

 

 

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/26131-speedy-r1-carbd-craziness/page-8

[Woody620]

thanks. mouting isn't really my issue, the driver was my issue.

[PHANTOMa]

This is where it was at (hopefully still is) when I finished cutting and placing the runners together and dropped it off to have it welded......gonna be using megajolt with a wideband afr on the SR and hopefully it'll run close to where I need it

[VintageRice]

Hey really nice job mocking that up! Gunna look hot I bet.

[Stupid_fast]

On an SR?

 

 

 

Hot.  Put big cams on it. 

[DADZSUN]

On an SR?

 

 

 

Hot.  Put big cams on it. 

 

FYI to those considering hot cams with megajolt, it's recommended to run the TPS load input vs MAP.

 

http://www.autosportlabs.net/index.php?title=Choosing_between_MAP_or_TPS

 

I'm thinking of running a Megajolt on my KA as well. Knowing that there's already a TPS on the R1, my research pulled up some helpful info:

 

 

[PHANTOMa]

Yeah my carbs came with the tps sensor so that was the route I was probably gonna go.....going by map would be like an artificial vac advance when you think about it and that's hella sketchy......from what I understand the megajolt auto syncs to any tps when you do the initial setup by reading the output signal voltage when the throttle is closed and WOT and creates an average to determine position of the butterflies......wayyyyy better I'd think

[Stupid_fast]

Is there anyone who knows how to really tune these?

 

I'm still trying to figure out my low end rich, top end lean... 

 

 

also I have a part throttle lean popping issue around 3000rpm, AFR will be fine cruising around 13.5:1 and then it will randomly lean pop out the carbs and then go back to normal. i have to make the needles too rich and hurt drive ability to fix it.  

 

 

I had to up to 190 main jets to keep under 13.5:1 full throttle above 5000rpm, but under 3000rpm full throttle I can get under 10:1 AFR ... pilots at 17.5.

It pulls over 7000rpm right now but still a bit lean up there over 13:1 afr, It feels like a 200 jet would be more ideal for the top.

 

Floats are set to 6mm height, made a good difference but not much.  Only a bit more smooth, what does float height effect ? 

 

 

Its still very drivable, I'm starting to think its just issues due to the cam I have, .490 lift 281 duration.   I still feel these could be tuned a bit better. 

 

 

Edit, I just read through all the tuning info in this thread again, pretty sure its the float height causing my low end rich. I have it set at 6mm right now, I'll try 7mm or 8mm.

 

and my other issue, pretty sure its the pilot air jets, I'll check them and report back.  I think Im going to try stepping up to a 200 main jet and see how it reacts above 6000rpm.  With the AFR's rising past 13.5 with the 190 jets, I feel there is more power to be had at the top.

 

Surprisingly I have no pinging, and stupidly I have no idea where my dizzy is set.  I put it by ear and left it and forgot about it...

 

 

I did some long distance driving today. When I am cruzing, not accelerating and not deselerating, foot lightly on the throtle, butterflys just cracked it goes way lean. I thought the "no hubs" where getting lose so I reset everyting and tightened them back down and it still dose it. the only thing I changed was putting the filters on. I did cut the hood so the tips of the filters are exposed to the wind. I thought filters would make it run richer. It runs slightly rich at idle and slightly rich after throtle starts to open but it has that lean spot at throtle open. I was reading back through one of the carb tuning sites and it says that is controled by the pilot system, so I will start there. It's anoying because that is the spot you use the most on the freeway. I have to keep speeding up and slowing down to keep the mix from going lean.

 

 

 

This is the issue I'm having, AFR goes to 15:1-ish and pops out carbs then stablizes back to normal around 13.5:1 cruise...

[VintageRice]

Is there anyone who knows how to really tune these?

 

I'm still trying to figure out my low end rich, top end lean... 

 

 

also I have a part throttle lean popping issue around 3000rpm, AFR will be fine cruising around 13.5:1 and then it will randomly lean pop out the carbs and then go back to normal. i have to make the needles too rich and hurt drive ability to fix it.  

 

 

I had to up to 190 main jets to keep under 13.5:1 full throttle above 5000rpm, but under 3000rpm full throttle I can get under 10:1 AFR ... pilots at 17.5.

It pulls over 7000rpm right now but still a bit lean up there over 13:1 afr, It feels like a 200 jet would be more ideal for the top.

 

Floats are set to 6mm height, made a good difference but not much.  Only a bit more smooth, what does float height effect ? 

 

 

Its still very drivable, I'm starting to think its just issues due to the cam I have, .490 lift 281 duration.   I still feel these could be tuned a bit better. 

 

 

Edit, I just read through all the tuning info in this thread again, pretty sure its the float height causing my low end rich. I have it set at 6mm right now, I'll try 7mm or 8mm.

 

and my other issue, pretty sure its the pilot air jets, I'll check them and report back.  I think Im going to try stepping up to a 200 main jet and see how it reacts above 6000rpm.  With the AFR's rising past 13.5 with the 190 jets, I feel there is more power to be had at the top.

 

Surprisingly I have no pinging, and stupidly I have no idea where my dizzy is set.  I put it by ear and left it and forgot about it...

 

 

 

 

 

This is the issue I'm having, AFR goes to 15:1-ish and pops out carbs then stablizes back to normal around 13.5:1 cruise...

Hot rodders have been doing this for 70 years. I wouldnt worry about it! lol

[Stupid_fast]

@vintagerice, Yeah, its great where its at so... I may check it just for lulz but meh.  just a guess its around 12-14 degrees idle.

 

 

I calibrated my innovate AFR today, and went for a run... seems it gets around 13.0:1 right around 6000rpm then drops around 12.7:1 around 6500rpm, so I say its good there, a little on the lean side but its mean and doesn't run too hot!  May drop to a 200 jet just for added piece of mind. 

 

 

I'm going to fix the needle midrange tuning next, then move down to the float bowls and see what I can do about the low end richness.  My needles are set SUPER lean because of the low end float problem, I've got a terrible part throttle lean out above 3000rpm due to where i have it set that I never realized until I recalibrated the o2 sensor ...

 

 

Anyway, I'll report back with my tuning success!

[Stupid_fast]

So I dropped the float height by 2mm, from 7mm to 9mm.  

 

The top end part throttle went more lean, and the bottom end is the same sluggish rich !! 

 

I don't get it... wide open 4000-7000 is fine AFR's stay between 12 and 13, but part throttle its popping and lean, and at the bottom its so rich not making and power. 

 

Anyone got ideas on what to try next ?? I'm going to try raising the floats I think and see what effect that has. 

[slingshot532]

 

This is how I am setting my needles. I am curently running no o-rings, tomorrow I will put one back in and see how it runs. On my gay, cheap, narrow band sensor.

 

Tihs is how I fixed my high speed cruising lean problem. I am running one o-ring on the needle.

 

After some thought it would be nice to cruse with a lean setting for good gas mileage. My problem is with the narrow band O2 I don't know how lean is to lean.

 

Good luck.

[Stupid_fast]

If I do that, its completely undrivable under 3000rpm.  It would make absolutely no power.  Its NOT a needle problem, this is a problem with a different circuit I'm almost sure of it.

 

AFR's already around 10:1 part throttle in that range ...

 

 

I'm looking into some books but I really need to find a source for how to dial in these carbs ... 

 

 

 

edit, I think it may be the 'needle jet' but I cannot find one for sale anywhere ! !  Anyone got an idea?

 

Ordered new needle jets, $80 ... 

 

 

 

edit,  Protip: if your carbs arent synced perfectly and are lean popping at cruise still, remove your filter until you fix it.

 

I just blew a hole in my pipercross because the #4 carb was 1/2 turn too lean on the idle mix.

[VintageRice]

I'm starting to think if I drove my car more often I'd probably go crazy tuning it and get EFI lololol

[Stupid_fast]

@VintageRice,

 

Or maybe you just have so much tq with the KA that you don't need to have your tune perfect !!!!!

 

Mine is a gutless napping monster in the low end, and a 7000rpm banshee at the top!

[spudly13]

I'm starting to think if I drove my car more often I'd probably go crazy tuning it and get EFI lololol

 

haha meybe i just didnt care as much as others, but i never had this many problems trying to get my car to run right... although i did have 10 pounds of boost to cover up the shitty tune :rofl: