38/38 Weber outlaw vacuum setup.

[TheBirdistheWord]

So, I bought a used outlaw about a year back planning on using it on my mild L20 build. Since I'm not dealing with emissions can I get away with simply hooking up the same lines that my 32/36 uses and capping the rest? 

 

Also, as I went down the search rabbit hole I've noticed a trend about them not being well suited for builds on the mild side. I have stock l20 internals bored .30 over with oversized l20 pistons, a peanut head, stock cam, and offy manifold.  I'd like to see comments on real world driving experience with a 38/38.  Actual mileage? Driveability? Pros? Cons?

 

Edit: I do have a napZ block ready for a building, so Ill definitely find a place for the 38/38 eventually, just wondering if it might be advantageous for my baby l20 build to stick with jet fiddling and synchronous linkage on my 32/36. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by TheBirdistheWord

[Bastard_510]

cut everything but the distributor adv. take the accelerator pump off the 32/36 the single nozzle. put it on the 38 and get rid of the twin jet. this will prevent a lot of driving problems from being too rich on acceleration. my l20 is just fine running a 38 i got 24mpg with a 4 speed. 22 now with a cam.if you have a problem setting up idle mixture get a jet kit and swap to a smaller idle jets. if you cant get to the back screw you can run it off 1 screw and close the other.

[banzai510(hainz)]

I ran one and its pretty much a bolt on operation

a offy manifold don't mean shit except that you don't need a carb adapter.  If possible match the ports to the L20 ports whichis 1.375 I believe and use a sss gasket or a Felpro intake gasket as it has the 1.5 in holes. But they tend to blowout over time in the center exhaust causeing a leak  Relex and Comectic might make better intake gaskets.

 

I would put the carb on the manifold and matchport the holes to the opening for a smooth transition

 

I had this on my L16 with a L20U57head with a Schneider 460 cam. It would run strong but on hilss when clutching it it could die on you as one really needs to rev it up to keep the vacuum up to keep the carb going. So if you live in Seattle or Samfransico co I would not use it.  right past idle it seem to be fine. Since you have a L20 might be less noticeable.

Also On my set up I took off the intake and notice the valves were black and even into the intake manifold was black meaning it was too rich.   I would try to run water thru it slowly on hot days hopping to flake off the carbon. But carb went bad and I went back to  a32/36 which was more drivable for my as I have ONE Hill that a hated to come to everyday amd was glad I didn't have to wear my clutch out.

 

If I was you I would do it if you live in a more flat area.

However I think they make a 32.36 conversion to douple open as a 38/38.

 

Both are simple and EZ carbs to maintain which is the BEST

 

also I think the 38/38 the idle jet has a big holder for the jet and one can add the idle cutoff selinoid as I had always RunOn issues on hot days even with the cutoff selinoid. The Manua 32/36 5A uses the smaller  idle jet holders

 

Bastard 510 mention the accel pump nozzle on both sides  but I never saw that on my 38. It was still ones side

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by banzai510(hainz)

[Bastard_510]

I’ve driven with mine so long i forgot that bog off idle. Having a single helps if you don’t have one already. Mine came as a kit for a l20 from  Pierce manifolds. You’ll have to kinda double tap the throttle to get your rpm up to like 1500 awhile letting the clutch out...how hard is it? I’ve completed forgotten that i do it 😂

[banzai510(hainz)]

any update??????

 

[TheBirdistheWord]

Not yet!  Thanks for the input! Took me a bit longer to get the new engine in than I thought it would. Trans mount broke when I went to bolt it back up. Thought it was strange because I replaced it when I installed the ZX trans. Also stopped mid project to get the front cover cracks welded, I hope the rest of the cover holds up!

 

I've read up on the negligible gains from the offy manifold. It is really just for bling factor, I really like the way it looks compared to the L16 manifold I have.

 

Just got the engine sealed up and installed tonight. Going to do the accessories and cooling this weekend. Waiting on new intake/exhaust manifold to start fiddling with the carb. 

[banzai510(hainz)]

make sure to fill the oil pump with oil!!!!

[TheBirdistheWord]

15 hours ago, banzai510(hainz) said:

make sure to fill the oil pump with oil!!!!

Copy that, already done!

[G-Duax]

I think the Offy would  have been a better manifold without that damn thick web running down the port runners to do the 'Dual-Plane' BS.

They really were meant to be a bolt-on for a stock engine.

 

Wouldn't even think of going to a single discharge accelerator nozzle. Maybe one with smaller orifices in it, if you get into a rich while accelerating issue, but not a single.

Why ?

It can lead to pockets of lean air fuel mixture to some cylinders, depending on how good of flow distribution your manifold has.

I was running a dual nozzle on my DVG, and had zero issues with it, and was getting 22 mpg with 4.6 gears, and 264 cam, and I drove it hard all the time.

 

[TheBirdistheWord]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:45 AM, banzai510(hainz) said:

 

Also On my set up I took off the intake and notice the valves were black and even into the intake manifold was black meaning it was too rich.   I would try to run water thru it slowly on hot days hopping to flake off the carbon. 

 

You know, I'm pretty sure I've over jetted my 32/36 and didn't even know until I saw this.  Ive noticed the same thing but I chalked it up to either oily coolant getting past the failed head gasket(s) that I was changing at the time or coolant diluted oil running into carb from the valve cover vent. 

 

It occurred to me that I never checked jetting from previous owner on the 38 I have. Can anyone save me some time searching the net and post up the baseline jetting for an outlaw? PO said it was installed on his L20b so I'm hoping I can assume it's safe to at least set the rings on my engine before I start fine tuning. 

[G-Duax]

Deposits on the intake valves & ports is from junk boiling out of 'run of the mill' pump gas, and sticking to everything.

Normal pump gas is full of low grade stock they dump into good stock, to lower octane to the pump advertised rating.

That low grade crap even gunks up the workings of gas pumps you use to fill your tank with.

 

If you were to run strait toluene, you would have zero deposits, but is very expensive, and very high octane, meaning it probably wouldn't even light off in cold weather.

Real F1 cars (not this watered down green planet crap cars of today) used to run upwards of 84% toluene (cut with a zero-octane additive) to get under the mandated 102 octane rules of the FIA, but had to have a heated fuel system to get the engines to start, and run correctly.

Toluene it's self is 114 octane.

 

No way around getting deposits on the intake valves when running pump gas, especially if you try to find the best price per gallon.

Remember, you get what you pay for....

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by G-Duax

[TheBirdistheWord]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:34 PM, G-Duax said:

Deposits on the intake valves & ports is from junk boiling out of 'run of the mill' pump gas, and sticking to everything.

Normal pump gas is full of low grade stock they dump into good stock, to lower octane to the pump advertised rating.

That low grade crap even gunks up the workings of gas pumps you use to fill your tank with.

 

If you were to run strait toluene, you would have zero deposits, but is very expensive, and very high octane, meaning it probably wouldn't even light off in cold weather.

Real F1 cars (not this watered down green planet crap cars of today) used to run upwards of 84% toluene (cut with a zero-octane additive) to get under the mandated 102 octane rules of the FIA, but had to have a heated fuel system to get the engines to start, and run correctly.

Toluene it's self is 114 octane.

 

No way around getting deposits on the intake valves when running pump gas, especially if you try to find the best price per gallon.

Remember, you get what you pay for....

 

This, I am aware of.  I failed to mention that I also had about a half millimeter of Carbon build up on the top of my pistons as well. 

[TheBirdistheWord]

*update*

Finally got everything squared away with the swap and took the dime out to set the piston rings. Man I gotta tell you guys, there's a huge difference from the 32/36 to the dual 38. I was able to spin em through 1st and 2nd gear and chirp 3rd!  damn good feeling. 

 

Feedback so far;

First, even though for the sake of the rings setting properly I was minimizing how much I let it idle I noticed some surging after getting the timing set.  I'm hoping it is simply an air leak at the carb manifold mating surface. 

 

Second, after a trip on the back roads and multiple pulls up to 5500 rpm the plugs look good.  Cream colored all the way up to the top which is definitely on its way to being a nice golden brown color. However, both mixture screws are only turned out 3/4 of a turn each.  I know on the 32/36 this would indicate the main jet is too large, is this also the case with the 38?

 

Lastly, does anyone have any suggestions on a better throttle linkage set up?  The stock stuff has fallen off during spirited driving in the past, and during my drive today it momentarily got pegged at full throttle. I may just need to in vest in a new set of pivot rods

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by TheBirdistheWord

[Ranman72]

i had surging on my car it turned out to be the rocking of the motor would twist the throttle linkage a little and the car would surge 

switched to throttle cable and everything is much smoother now 

i recommend a cable throttle not linkage 

[TheBirdistheWord]

10 hours ago, Ranman72 said:

i had surging on my car it turned out to be the rocking of the motor would twist the throttle linkage a little and the car would surge 

switched to throttle cable and everything is much smoother now 

i recommend a cable throttle not linkage 

Can you elaborate on the setup? Any chance you might be able to post photos?

[Ranman72]

i haven't set up a new photo host  since photoshit took everyone's photos hostage 

it is a standard cable throttle set up 

I recommend lokar cables 

you have to modify the pedal assembly and make some brackets to hold the cable

 

there is some info in here and a pic of the bracket you would need for the weber 

 

this should give you some ideas 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Ranman72

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

On 1/21/2020 at 7:42 PM, TheBirdistheWord said:

 

Lastly, does anyone have any suggestions on a better throttle linkage set up?  The stock stuff has fallen off during spirited driving in the past, and during my drive today it momentarily got pegged at full throttle. I may just need to in vest in a new set of pivot rods

 

This is common. Using spacers and longer 6mm bolts, you can move the pivot off the firewall an inch or so to help keep the linkage rod in place.

[TheBirdistheWord]

::sigh:: figured out why the carb was sticking.  The accelerator pump linkage was hitting the manifold at full throttle... I adjusted the valves to cold clearances and I suppose I was a bit over zealous in my next drive and bent a valve..... SMH

 

Now I have learned the hard way to Always adjust valves with engine warm....

Edited February 5, 2020 by TheBirdistheWord

[datzenmike]

Can't bend a valve because the lash is tight. The valves are cooled by transferring heat when they are closed. If the lash is too tight they won't close properly or perhaps all the way. Exhaust can slip by the exhaust valve burning a path in it or the seat or over heat and crack them. Intakes less so because they are also air cooled. To bend a valve it has to hit something like a piston or setting the head down on a table with one open. To hit a piston on a stock L series is extremely unlikely.

 

The difference between a hot and cold setting is a bare 0.002" about half the thickens of a piece of paper. A cold setting assumes the setting will expand from the heat this much. You would still have 0.008" or 0.010" before the valve is in jeopardy. 

 

 

[TheBirdistheWord]

57 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

Can't bend a valve because the lash is tight. The valves are cooled by transferring heat when they are closed. If the lash is too tight they won't close properly or perhaps all the way. Exhaust can slip by the exhaust valve burning a path in it or the seat or over heat and crack them. Intakes less so because they are also air cooled. To bend a valve it has to hit something like a piston or setting the head down on a table with one open. To hit a piston on a stock L series is extremely unlikely.

 

The difference between a hot and cold setting is a bare 0.002" about half the thickens of a piece of paper. A cold setting assumes the setting will expand from the heat this much. You would still have 0.008" or 0.010" before the valve is in jeopardy. 

 

 

Hmm. What about the lash being too loose?  I know what I set it too but I was winding the engine up to 6000rpm. Suppose there's a chance I may have not tightened the lock but properly. Its an intake valve that bent. 

 

Either way, the valve spring has contacted the cam tower.  Is it possible the valve is just cocked out of place?  I compared it to the other intake valve spring close to the other cam tower and it's definitely out of place. 

[datzenmike]

A picture is best.

[banzai510(hainz)]

How you going to bend a valve?  maybe if the cam timming is off a lot.

 

I tight my valves cold and never have a proplem.  006in 008 exhaust.

 

too tight you don't get compression so no power.

loose it loud!!!!!  I even ran them with the lash pad falling out I never bent a valve.

 

 

spring hitting cam tower is bad.  like to see a photo of this.  maybe it sucked in a carb bolt from the inside aircleaner(almost happen to me)

[TheBirdistheWord]

Imageshack is being a butthole by not letting me upload images atm. Would anyone be willing to use their hosting site to post the photos? If not I'll wait until I have time to set up a different account....

[TheBirdistheWord]

[datzenmike]

 

The valve seat may have fallen out.

 

The valve can't close, the extra clearance allows the lash pad to fall out. Rocker arm now hammers the retainer.

 

Put the lash pad back in and see if the adjustment came loose first. Set the adjustment and see if the spring moves over out of the way.