Snake pit - rhino built

[Charlie69]

Did the truck get to operating temp?  this could be choke.

 

I have had several new out of the box Weber's have a high idle at first.  once it comes up to temp they idle back butt were still idling at 1200.  I just kept playing with it and also installed a throttle return spring.

 

Call Pierce It is probably something simple.

[wayno]

It's getting air from somewhere, as you said both butterflies are closed, check around for an intake manifold outlet that is not closed/plugged, also check your PCV valve, mine went bad once and the idle was revved really high.

Make sure the secondary is completely closed, Justin once called me to come look at why his idle was at 4000rpms plus, it turned out the secondary had a piece of shit in it holding it open, I could look down the barrel and see it was open a little, we got the crap out and all was good.

[Rhino13]

Did the truck get to operating temp? this could be choke.

 

I have had several new out of the box Weber's have a high idle at first. once it comes up to temp they idle back butt were still idling at 1200. I just kept playing with it and also installed a throttle return spring.

 

Call Pierce It is probably something simple.

I got it to operating temp before I switched the linkage to make sure it would give me a baseline of how it would run. I sent pierce an email, I will probably call tomorrow on my lunch if I don't hear back by then.

[Rhino13]

It's getting air from somewhere, as you said both butterflies are closed, check around for an intake manifold outlet that is not closed/plugged, also check your PCV valve, mine went bad once and the idle was revved really high.

Make sure the secondary is completely closed, Justin once called me to come look at why his idle was at 4000rpms plus, it turned out the secondary had a piece of shit in it holding it open, I could look down the barrel and see it was open a little, we got the crap out and all was good.

With it being an L series it only has the two manifold ports, one has a vacuum plug and the other goes to my brake booster, so there's no pcv. I also made sure the base of the carb was tight. I haven't completely removed the carb since installing it but looking down from the top both of them appear to be closed. I suppose its worth pulling off at this point though. I did go buy a .55 secondary idle jet but it didn't change anything.

 

I agree with you guys it seems like a vacuum leak, I'm just really curious how it ran completely fine with the progressive linkage but uncontrollable with the sync. I do remember when I first built the lz I had the thought of a synchronized linkage and tested it by opening them together by hand, and it screamed off idle even. So going along with that, the only change I realistically made is the double pump jet rather than the single only in the primary.

 

Thanks for the replys guys, anything else you can think of or anything I can try is always appreciated!

[Lockleaf]

Check your throttle shafts for leaks. I assume they got jostled about when you did the swap, so maybe there is a leak where the shaft passes through the carb body.

[wayno]

It has to be more than a shaft leak, otherwise my SUs on my work truck would be the equivalent of the Lincoln tunnel air leak, they are hard to tune(one is just about not serviceable), but they idle just fine.

If he took a normal carb and changed it to another type of carb, then likely something is out of sync or not adjusted properly, it will have to be a pretty big leak to get the engine up to 3000rpms, either there is a vacuum leak in the intake, the carb has a sizable vacuum leak at the base/mount, or the butterflies are not closing.

Now if the carb was pulled apart completely and then put back together, when the butterfly plates were installed back on the shaft, did he close them completely before tightening the screws on the butterfly plates?

Also I heard synchronized mentioned, that means the likely new linkage was installed on the carb, are you sure it was put on correctly, and did you check the butterflies then when you could see them up close to make sure that the butterflies on the non-idle side and the idle side were closed completely.

If you are sure that the base is sealed for sure, and there are no intake manifold vacuum leaks, I call butterflies not closing completely, if may be a linkage issue, or a butterfly not centered in the throat, but one of them is not closing completely.

[Rhino13]

Well wayno you struck gold! I pulled the carb off and the secondary was open about an 1/8 inch and wouldn't close. So I took off the secondary linkage and it closed right up. On further investigation I realized the secondary linkage they sent was welded just barely off so it wasn't allowing the secondary to close all the way. I left pierce a voicemail to see if they need it back for a replacement or what, but since that secondary linkage isn't useable as is, I considered modifying it. For now I'm just going to wait until I hear back from pierce on Monday and go from there. Thanks for all the input, its got the progressive linkage back on for now and runs totally fine again. I'm kind of glad I have to wait a little, because when I first pulled the linkage off (which I've never done on this specific weber) I noticed the first few threads on the secondary shaft were chewed off so it was only catching on 2 threads. With that new linkage it only caught on 1 thread, so I'm going to swap the shaft from another one I've got and tidy it up a bit. Thanks for the help so far guys, lets hope the next one they send isn't problematic as well!

[wayno]

Is the linkage a linkage or a plate, if linkage maybe it can be bent to work, or maybe plate/arm that connects to shaft that controls secondaries can be adjusted or reversed to make it work, you have to check all possibilities. 

I have put together stuff wrong lots of times in my life, you need to triple check to make sure you put it together correctly, Pierce is pretty good at doing what they do, they likely have produced and sold thousands of the carb. upgrade packages you bought, although that doesn't mean they didn't mess up, but with the reputation they have, I would guess they don't screw up much.

[Rhino13]

Is the linkage a linkage or a plate, if linkage maybe it can be bent to work, or maybe plate/arm that connects to shaft that controls secondaries can be adjusted or reversed to make it work, you have to check all possibilities.

I have put together stuff wrong lots of times in my life, you need to triple check to make sure you put it together correctly, Pierce is pretty good at doing what they do, they likely have produced and sold thousands of the carb. upgrade packages you bought, although that doesn't mean they didn't mess up, but with the reputation they have, I would guess they don't screw up much.

If you look at the picture I posted of the parts you can see the primary linkage has a little arm and the secondary has a long hole that the arm rides in. I will install the linkage on my spare carb when I get home so you can see what I mean. The secondary linkage has a little washer welded to the back that has is the shape of the shaft so that its locked in place. As soon as it seats it opens the secondary butterfly and has no wiggle room. If you flip it any other way it doesn't touch the primary arm so I'm pretty certain its on right. I also compared it to a video a guy posted about the kit and it looked identical. But nonetheless I will post pictures so you guys can see what I mean. Explaining without pictures is hard when I don't have some of the terminology.

[Charlie69]

Good work Rhino!

[wayno]

OK, I looked at the arms, the arm you have that goes to the secondary has a round hole, so when you tighten that nut on the shaft, you have to make sure the butterfly is closed when you tighten it, that round hole makes it adjustable.

What I am saying is to put it all together but don't tighten the secondary shaft nut till the end, get it all together, then use your fingers to make sure both butterflies are closed(make sure idle screw is not touching) then tighten the secondary shaft nut last making sure the butterfly stays closed.

If the arm hole wasn't round, then I would have to see it to figure it out, I may still be wrong, but I would put it back together again, I have a Weber here and that is how I came to my conclusion.

[Rhino13]

I made a video for ya wayno, and anyone else curious to what the issue is. I slacked on posting pictures but I feel that would've made it make more sense at the time. I will post it when its done uploading, it SHOULD answer any questions.

 

And just to answer your question wayno, the front side of the secondary shaft is a hole, there is a washer welded to the back that is the shape of the shaft to lock it on the shaft. You will see that in my video though.

[Rhino13]

There's a few spots I point the camera away to use both hands, but I got all the important parts. Sorry if anything isn't in focus, I will also post a picture of both butterflys so its more clear than the video.

 

[Rhino13]

Here is with both parts of the linkage on the carb I currently use earlier this morning. This is the furthest it would close.

[wayno]

OK, I was going to ask about that screw on the bottom of the secondary, but in the photo in the last post it looks like you backed it out, so I guess you tried that also.

Talk to Pierce, and see what they have to say, I know what I would do, but I will not say till you talk to them, don't want to give you any ideas till they have had their say, as what I would do would void the warranty, and you would not be able to return them.

Are you sure this is worth the hassle?

[Rhino13]

OK, I was going to ask about that screw on the bottom of the secondary, but in the photo in the last post it looks like you backed it out, so I guess you tried that also.

Talk to Pierce, and see what they have to say, I know what I would do, but I will not say till you talk to them, don't want to give you any ideas till they have had their say, as what I would do would void the warranty, and you would not be able to return them.

Are you sure this is worth the hassle?

Well if they offer to send me another one and keep this one, I was going to mark it along the edge of both the linkage and the washer on back, then cut them apart, put it on the carb and set it in the right spot using the mark to make sure it doesn't sit back in the same spot, then remark it and weld them back together. I'm capable of all of that, I just wanted to see what they have to say before voiding the warranty like you said.

My curiosity makes it worth it to me. Plus it hasn't had many problems since I put the rebuilt lz in so its giving me something to mess around with. The kit has a lot of positive reviews so I wanted to see for myself. I have the progressive linkage on hand if I find that I don't like it.

But thank you for all the input from everyone, I'm still learning so the info helps.

[wayno]

Yea I do stuff all the time to see if it will work, but it normally has nothing to do with the engine except for the 720 turbodiesel, that one I have been trying to get it to daily driver with no quirks, it still has quirks that make it an only I can drive it driver.

My mods are mostly chassis/body mods, if it don't work I can put it back the way it was most the time, and it's not something that I would have to return to anyone. 

[Rhino13]

Yea I do stuff all the time to see if it will work, but it normally has nothing to do with the engine except for the 720 turbodiesel, that one I have been trying to get it to daily driver with no quirks, it still has quirks that make it an only I can drive it driver.

My mods are mostly chassis/body mods, if it don't work I can put it back the way it was most the time, and it's not something that I would have to return to anyone.

Yeah we've actually met before about 4-4.5 years ago when I lived in Portland. I had a diesel 720 and you offered to take a look at my injection pump and ended up showimg me all of your projects. I saw your unibody 520 right after you finished the front end and part of the bed or tailgate was being worked on.

Here's the truck you helped me with, if it helps remind you.

 

All of your projects are very impressive though, and I'm glad I got the see the u320 at Canby '15 as you had told me you were getting it back then. I've learned a lot since then and its mostly been with the help of others on here so I'm very appreciative of this forum.

[wayno]

Is that the one that would not turn off?

I have had a lot of people over here about their diesel not turning off correctly, it always seemed to be either cycling the IP controller plug or a bad DPC Module, never had anyone bitch about the glow plug timer.

I have to many Datsun projects, now I am just trying to finish what I have or sell it.

[Rhino13]

Is that the one that would not turn off?

I have had a lot of people over here about their diesel not turning off correctly, it always seemed to be either cycling the IP controller plug or a bad DPC Module, never had anyone bitch about the glow plug timer.

I have to many Datsun projects, now I am just trying to finish what I have or sell it.

You got it, it was the DPC module from what I remember. You also fixed my tail lights and made a slave cylinder arm out of an old bolt because my clutch wasn't fully engaging, and it worked perfect!

[Rhino13]

Oh and also the guy I sold it to had a second white diesel 720 and he said he also came to see you! I believe his name was Kevin, had a big beard and loved talking about his airstream he was working on.

[wayno]

I have had a lot of people over here, and talked to a lot of people about 720 diesels over the years, the truck does look familiar with that big black stripe on the bottom.

I believe I seen it on Craigslist also, I have bought and sold so many of them it's all a giant blur now, your the one that had rebuilt your DPC Module and it went bad again?

[Rhino13]

I have had a lot of people over here, and talked to a lot of people about 720 diesels over the years, the truck does look familiar with that big black stripe on the bottom.

I believe I seen it on Craigslist also, I have bought and sold so many of them it's all a giant blur now, your the one that had rebuilt your DPC Module and it went bad again?

It was rebuilt by my good friend right before I bought it, but yes. And it was on Craigslist for a while from the guy that bought it and we actually reconnected because of it, but I didn't have the money to buy it back at the time. He still has the white one he had, but he took all the nicer stuff off mine because his body was nicer. He may have even swapped motor and trans because mine had a low mile rebuilt trans.

[Rhino13]

Well I talked to a guy at pierce and sent him the picture and video and he said it was clear that the piece was welded slightly off and he put a new one out for delivery at that exact moment! So I will be receiving it on Wednesday. Not that I had any doubts, but now I can attest to what everyone says about pierce being so great!

[Charlie69]

That is why I have done business with Pierce Manifolds for over 3 decades, just good people.