ford starter solenoid questions thread

[Dawa]

disclaimer: searched google for 'ford solenoid ratsun'

and didnt really come up with much, so i hope im not making a duplicate thread.

 

anyways, im not very electrically savvy. 

one day i was reading about the ford starter solenoids and i realized

i had one installed in my truck.

 

however, compared to all the other install diagrams ive seen, i dont think mine is installed correctly
(as in i think there are too many wires.)

 

heres what im workin with:

 

photo of my 3 post solenoid

 

oh and what is this thing to the left of the voltage regulator?

my fsm suggests it might be the 'inhibitor relay (a/t only.) fyi, car WAS an auto converting to manual.

 

 

 

i know my wires & the bay is a mess, but this will be one of the steps toward cleaning it up.

 

and here is a diagram of all the wires

now in most diagrams ive seen, the positive wire goes from the battery to one post of the (ford) solenoid
and then a wire goes from the other post and to the starter.

 

point out what yall see wrong with this set up, or tell me if there is a way to simplify it.

[DISLEXICDIME]

point out what yall see wrong with this set up, or tell me if there is a way to simplify it.

the ford solenoid

[DanielC]

Welcome to the joy of previous owners electrical "improvements"

That is just a standard heavy duty starter relay.  It is not needed to start the car.  And besides, the wires on it would not handle the current a starter motor draws, even on a Datsun.

[EricJB]

The ford starter solenoid is just a big relay. They are usually wired in when the signal from the ignition switch is not strong enough to kick the solenoid on the starter. Pretty common in the old air cooled VW's since the wire was 12 feet long. Not so much on Datsuns.  One side post goes to a good source of power. The middle post is from the ignition switch that would normally go to the spade on the starter solenoid, and the third post goes to the spade on the starter solenoid. Some have 4 posts. The fourth is to send juice to the distributor while cranking. Not sure why it is on your rig to begin with.

 

Now you also know how to hotwire an old Ford. No extra charge.   

[Dawa]

post

[datzenmike]

It's the overkill equivalent of a hot start relay.

[ggzilla]

It is an energy drag. Those solenoids take a lot of current to activate.

 

Replace it with a power relay if there is a need for heavy current switching. Otherwise a $2 Nissan relay from the wreckers wil handle a 30A current load.

[Dawa]

well shoot if you guys dont think its any good, i dont mind getting rid of it entirely.

 

but does anyone know what the thing is to the left of the volt regulator?

[datsunaholic]

It is an energy drag. Those solenoids take a lot of current to activate.

Not really.  Less drag than the stock bendix solenoid, and Ford soleniods tend to be a lot less expensive and easier to get than foreign-made relays.  We use 24V versions to direct-start 12-cyl airplane engines, and they're full-load. Though the soleniod is extra load, it's not much.  If the battery can't handle the solenoid it sure can't handle cranking.

 

If you remove the Ford solenoid you may find the truck won't start reliably.  That solenoid got installed for a reason.  It works.  You could replace it with a smaller relay, if you like spending money for no reason.  Unless it doesn't work.

 

Cleanup, well, you could move the always-hot wire from the starter batt lug to the battery, but I see nothing wrong with how it's wired.

 

Actually, looking at it I think they put that in not realizing that the inhibit relay was preventing it from cranking, due to the neutral safety switch being missing.

[datzenmike]

Not an automatic is it?

[ggzilla]

Datsholic, you miss the point that it is not being used as a starter solenoid. Those wires are not battery cables and cannot power the starter. It might be used a a start-voltage relay maybe for the coil, but there is really no reason for that except to bypass bad wiring.

 

So yes, if the truck has a wiring problem that the relay is hiding ... it might not work good. Better to fix the problem than add more complexity.

[banzai510(hainz)]

Its used as a hot start relay. your fine.  they are heavy duty. most use the smaller light relays now

[Dawa]

Not really.  Less drag than the stock bendix solenoid, and Ford soleniods tend to be a lot less expensive and easier to get than foreign-made relays.  We use 24V versions to direct-start 12-cyl airplane engines, and they're full-load. Though the soleniod is extra load, it's not much.  If the battery can't handle the solenoid it sure can't handle cranking.

 

If you remove the Ford solenoid you may find the truck won't start reliably.  That solenoid got installed for a reason.  It works.  You could replace it with a smaller relay, if you like spending money for no reason.  Unless it doesn't work.

 

Cleanup, well, you could move the always-hot wire from the starter batt lug to the battery, but I see nothing wrong with how it's wired.

 

Actually, looking at it I think they put that in not realizing that the inhibit relay was preventing it from cranking, due to the neutral safety switch being missing.

 

was thinking the same thing, they musta put it in for a reason. and it isnt causing me any problems at all.

 

maybe ill keep everything as is, solenoid wise.

 

Not an automatic is it?

it is an automatic. i missed a page in the fsm and upon a second review it is indeed the inhibitor relay.

 

should be fine removing the relay, correct?

[wayno]

This diagram doesn't make sense, you show both the wires on the sides of the relay going to the same place as the main cable going from the battery to the starter solenoid, this would mean both of them wires have power all the time, which would do absolutely nothing, even if that other 3rd wire were hooked up to a relay of some kind, it would still do nothing if them two wires go to the same place.

Are you sure that you have the lines on your diagram correct?

 

This is how a ford starter solenoid is supposed to be wired, in the photo below you can see two main black cables, the one with the copper end goes to the ford starter motor, the one with the black end goes directly to the main positive battery post, and the small green wire is the starter exciter wire, which is the power wire to activate the starter.

Datsun starters are not meant to use a ford relay, even though I have one on my truck, we really don't want to go there, but I had to do it to get my starter to work.

In this photo below, you can see a wire going to a 3rd connection on your starter, this wire is not in your diagram, this wire is what likely activates your starter, I have no idea what that relay does in your car.

[Dawa]

i had drawn this up to perhaps make things more clear but didnt post it

the diagram is correct, it is the wiring that isnt correct, and thats why im here.

[wayno]

i had drawn this up to perhaps make things more clear but didnt post it

the diagram is correct, it is the wiring that isnt correct, and thats why im here.

 

This makes a little more sense, OK the red wire on the front of the relay that looks like it turns to white after the black tape, where does that wire go?

Does it go to the thing next to the voltage regulator?

[Dawa]

This makes a little more sense, OK the red wire on the front of the relay that looks like it turns to white after the black tape, where does that wire go?

Does it go to the thing next to the voltage regulator?

correct, it goes to the 'inhibitor relay'

it does look BW (black/white)  but is actually BY (black/yellow)

 

after some studying ive found that:

in an a/t, there is a BY wire from the starter spade, to the relay,

and then another BY going to the ign switch

 

where as in m/t, the BY goes from starter spade directly to ign switch

[datsunaholic]

Datsholic, you miss the point that it is not being used as a starter solenoid. Those wires are not battery cables and cannot power the starter. It might be used a a start-voltage relay maybe for the coil, but there is really no reason for that except to bypass bad wiring.

 

So yes, if the truck has a wiring problem that the relay is hiding ... it might not work good. Better to fix the problem than add more complexity.

 

What point am I missing?  I realize it's not being used as a starter solenoid.  It's not between the battery and the starter main leads.  It's between the battery and the starter solenoid lead.  It's being used as a starter solenoid driver relay.  Is it overkill?  Yes.  Will it work?  Yes.

 

A "starter solenoid" isn't even really a solenoid at all- it's just a heavy duty relay.  You could replace the Ford solenoid with a regular relay, but why?  What's there works fine.

 

 

Have you looked at how many threads there are about adding a starter relay? That's all that is, using a Ford solenoid that can be found in any parts store in the US.  It's a better solution than using a screwdriver across the starter terminals every time you get a weak "click" because the key switch just doesn't do it on 40 year old wiring anymore.  The other solution is to rip all the wiring out and redo it all, which usually ends up being someone's abandoned project.  It takes a LOT of patience to go through 300 feet of wiring to find whatever is causing high resistance.  It also means ripping the wiring OUT, since you can't inspect it in place easily.  The dash is in the way.  And it's wrapped in factory tape.

 

 

 

 

In DAWA's case, it's either one of 2 things:

 

1) Whoever converted it from A/T to manual didn't realize they needed to bypass the inhibit relay, had no wiring diagram, and figured out which wire went from the key to the inhibit relay.  Rather than hook it DIRECTLY to the starter solenoid tab (which is what they should have done) they hooked in a Ford solenoid as a relay (probably thinking the Inhibit relay was a starter relay that had gone bad).  Of course the other solution is to plug the Neutral switch leads together (which is how my formerly Automatic 510 wagon is wired) which leaves the inhibit relay in play, but since it always thinks the transmission is in neutral due to the wires plugged together it always starts.

 

2) The starter solenoid wasn't getting enough power due to voltage drops, and added the ford solenoid to give it a stronger signal.   A common solution, judging by how many folks suggest it here.

 

 

 

If you want to eliminate the Ford solenoid, hook whatever wire is going to the solenoid center terminal (it looks like it's the factory black with white or yellow stripe) directly to the starter's solenoid spade terminal.  Remove Ford solenoid and all the wires connected to it. Hopefully the starter solenoid gets enough power.  It SHOULD, but I know '73 620s.  The wiring is one step better than British wiring.  They somewhat improved things in '76, with better connectors, but '73-74 were really notorious for bad connections.

[Dawa]

yeah, come daylight im gonna take the black yellow wire from the starter tab to the ignition switch, as it should be on an m/t,

and i also have a few other wires to chase and ill remove the 'solenoid.' then ill see if she'll start up. i have faith.

 

thanks for everyone who's contributed.

[Dawa]

well, thanks to your help and my fsm,

both the solenoid/relay and inhibitor switch are no more!

and the cars starts right up no problem without em, too!

getting rid of all those extra wires will help me with my battery relocation, too.

 

 

im missing the fusible link that is wired into the smaller pos. batt cable, after some researching it looks

like ill just wire an inline fuse holder with a 40amp fuse~

[ggzilla]

Good on ya! Simpler means more reliable.

 

Fuse != Fusible Link. They are two different things. 40A fuse will likely pop off occasionally, but more importantly it doesn't provide the same anti-fire protection. Generic Fusible Link wires are $2 on amazon.com or the right one with the right connectors is about $7 from Nissan. Make sure you use the correct rating (it's not 40A) so that your wiring harness is protected.

 

You can run without the Fusible Link, chances of a fire are slim.

 

And a fusible link is dead-simple. Much more reliable than a fuse.

[wayno]

I forgot about this thread, datsunaholic explained it good, I have seen this before, everytime it has been on a datsun/nissan diesel till now. 

[Dawa]

Good on ya! Simpler means more reliable.

 

Fuse != Fusible Link. They are two different things. 40A fuse will likely pop off occasionally, but more importantly it doesn't provide the same anti-fire protection. Generic Fusible Link wires are $2 on amazon.com or the right one with the right connectors is about $7 from Nissan. Make sure you use the correct rating (it's not 40A) so that your wiring harness is protected.

 

You can run without the Fusible Link, chances of a fire are slim.

 

And a fusible link is dead-simple. Much more reliable than a fuse.

 

oh, alright. i thought using a fuse instead of link was just more modern but i hear ya.

 

i was referencing http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Fusible_Link which says the green fusible link is 40amps.

i just ran to autozone before they closed and they had a 30amp max inline fuse holder so i got that, and she started up alright, got

some spare fuses just in case.

[banzai510(hainz)]

people put these ford relays on Chevys that have HOT start proplem also . Starter gets hot.

 

just see how it goes for now. Pproplem might come back. or the guy had a slightly weak seliniod.

 

my yellow car has this pproplem but I havent put a relay in yet as I never drive the car. Clic Click Click.