Inquiring about a turbo kit for l18

[Ratwagon1600]

Toney, anythings possible if you have the magic four.

 

1. Time

 

2. Equipment

 

3. Skill, and lucky last

 

4. Money to do stuff

 

Turbocharging an L series is possible, and people have, and some still continue to do so. Hell, despite the fact I have done FJ, 13b turbo swaps etc, I'm eventually going to do a turbocharged L series, why?, because I can.

 

I suppose what some people (i include myself here) have rightly or wrongly looked at at this stage, and no disrespect as I'm a newb here too, is your low post count and assumed your in your infancy of owning Dattos.

 

I wasn't being rude when I asked if you were trying to run before you could crawl. If you've got even basic fab/welding skills you could smash a job like this.

 

Ultimately one thing you need to ask yourself is "do I want to turbo an L series engine cause I can and don't care about the haters?", or, will I get better power, performance etc from a SR or similar swap?

 

If you do decide to go down the 13B path, pm me as I've got measurements for custom crossmember and other infor on fitting them into a 510 engine bay.

 

If you were in Australia, I could even sell you a complete fitting kit I have made for the 13B :)

 

Cheers

 

Jason

 

 

[mone]

How rare is it to find a L-series turbo? I believe I have found the unicorn!! I just recently traded my 2003 Yamaha xt225 dirt bike / street bike for it. See my sons link if you want. http://community.ratsun.net/topic/47254-1971-510-two-door-with-l20b-turbo/

[Tristin]

The statement about a turbo'd L-series being a unicorn was directed to the fact that there is no kit you can buy for them. That's why I posted what I did previous... Many people have put turbos on L-Series'. There's a member here that has one. Anyone can turbo anything.

[mone]

L-series turbo is new to me, I never really thought about doing an L20b turbo, I just got lucky it came in my 510. The guys that swapped the whole motor into the car never got it running since 09 or maybe longer. I now just owned it for about a week and now it's running. I really like it! I would love to see more L-series turbo upgrades.

[pl521sss]

I'm willing to loan you the entire turbo setup.

If you want to copy it

Or maybe you can improve on the design of it.

 

All the components are there even the downpipe and oil feed from the oil pan.

Only missing piece that I need to work on is a god working carb.

This should have been installed 2-3 years ago but never got around it.

[sssr20det510]

I Like the car-tech one

[Laecaon]

Yea, I never said turbo L-series is impossible. Heck if I could weld, I would probably do it. I just meant that there is no such thing as a turbo kit you can buy off the shelf anymore. Those days are over.

[datzenmike]

The problem with a draw through is you can't run an inter cooler to raise the efficiency. It's essential that a draw through carb is supplied with cool air from in front of the rad. Compressing already hot under hood air will raise the temp to the point it will ignite just from the compression just like a diesel. A few seconds of pre ignition can melt holes in the pistons. Now all you can do is lower the boost (right! everyone wants to go the other way, or turn the timing back) both will reduce power. Every attempt should be made to reduce the intake air temp.

[spudly13]

...i am almost hesitant to reply... :geek: ...It was primarily out of curiosity, however i do find it hard to believe that no one's ever turboed a l-series, there are a lot of datsun enthusiasts out there that I'm sure have attempted and failed and some who have succeeded in doing so, just happen to be a metal fabricator and if it is truly 120% impossible to do then i might consider a KA swap or some old school power like a 13b. i appreciate the feedback,Just wanted some input if anyone has done this first hand before here on ratsun

 

Its not that no ones done it or that its impossible, with fab skills and some money its do able, just do TONS of research, i learned that the hard way, dont go trying to re-invent the wheel so to speak, If you go suck through CARBON SEAL is a must...

 

I want to add that for the record.. with a suck through setup, heat is not a problem in your intake air, icing in the carb and intake is actually a bigger problem....

 

 

EDIT and dont cheap out on shitty parts... cheap ebay shit comes back to bite you... trust me

[pl521sss]

Here's another setup that might interest you.

It's from a LD20T motor

Factory turbo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mone]

The 510 with the car tech turbo is the one I own now! That's cool! I didn't know how many of you guys know about this turbo.

[pl521sss]

I want to see close up pic of the adapter for the carb to inlet of turbo.

Looks like Rayjay is also using the same one.

 

Cartech does have a better looking intake manifold.

 

 

The 510 with the car tech turbo is the one I own now! That's cool! I didn't know how many of you guys know about this turbo.

[mone]

I want to see close up pic of the adapter for the carb to inlet of turbo.

Looks like Rayjay is also using the same one.

 

Cartech does have a better looking intake manifold.

I was just looking at Rayjay's adapter for the carb to inlet of turbo does look similar, but not the same one.

[Toney]

it just was the way i interpreted the replays made it seem like it is impossible, no disrespect to anyone here, it definately seems like a good project and could pay off in the end if it all goes well,considering you can get away with modified motors this old due to these muffed up carb/smog laws here in cali. thanks everyone for the info. I am really interested in attempting this so if i need more info i know exactly where to look. :thumbup:

[yellowdatsun]

Toney, it's not that nobody has done a turbo L-series, tons of people have...........the problem lies with there being very little bolt on parts for a turbo L motor. Most of the guys who have one, have all custom made pieces. You can get turbo exhaust manifolds, but they're rare. You can get EFI intake manifolds, but they're rare. Or you can use one of the "kits", which are also rare, and then you're stuck with very antiquated technology.

 

Here's the thing:

EFI L-series intake is somewhere between $200 and $400.

Turbo exhaust manifold is probably around $200 to $300.

The turbo itself, used, is probably $150-$200, new is closer to $400

EFI wiring, computer, and injectors is another $100-$200.

Intercooler is going to be $150.

And on top of that you'll need to fabricate all of the turbo piping, and probably modify the intercooler. So the average just for parts is $1000.

 

We say to do an engine swap because you'll get the same horsepower, with a more reliable package, for less money. People don't do many turbo L motors because it's not easy, not cheap, and not worth the money invested. If you wanted a turbo, you'd be better off starting with a KA24, because at least with those they make turbo kits. You'd still have to do the piping, but the efi and manifolds would already be done/available.

[datsun 521 ute]

HKS made a turbo kit for the 4 cylinder L series, I know this as I have seen one in person. My brother had one a few years ago as he was going to put it on his Bluebird wagon but ended up selling it.

http://datsun510.com/photopost/data/500/HKS_Cast_L-series_turbo_manifold.jpg

[SAK510]

Hello all,

 

I'm new to your forum, but way not new to Datsun 510's. I have been involved with 510's since 1977, on and off. I have modified and ground up restored a few 510's, then also put over 100,000 miles on them, so I wasn't in the business. I built them for myself.  I came across this discussion by accident while looking up something else online completely unrelated.

 

I have actually built two different turbo systems on L18's and am quite familar with simple, powerful, and usually reliable (dependant on the quality of your manifolds) draw through turbo systems.

 

I got interested while reading these posts all the misconceptions about turbocharging in general, and turbocharging no crossflow engines like the L series. I will also note that I used to work with and learned from a Turbocherging tech and designer that used to work for Cartech before they moved and became Bell Engineering. I also have studied Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnis (I think I spelled his name right). I highly recommend reading his book. The design principals are still the same, and everything you would need to know about turbocharging an L16-L20b is in that book.

 

I am going to make a few points for anyone who comes across this discussion in the future.

 

First, Rajay did not make a turbo kit for the 510. Crown made a turbocharger kit using a Rajay turbo. Ipco also made a turbo exhaust manifold though I have always wondered if the Crown kit used an Ipco turbo exhaust manifold.

 

Cartech also made a turbo kit for the L series.  We had tremendous problems keeping the system sealed using Cartech manifolds. They look nice, but they are generally a menace. And the more the system leaks at the turbo flanges, the louder the car gets, and the SLOWER it gets. I would not recommend using the Cartech manifolds if you really want the system to stay sealed for over 2000 miles. Oh, and I don't know about anyone else, but I just hate taking apart stuff I installed only 2000 miles ago.

 

The Ipco turbo exhaust manifold is the way to go when building a system. Or one can make a simple manifold like it.  For the intake at the head, a stock 510 intake manifold keeps things simple and much more reliable. 

 

One should keep in mind that turbocharging equalizes breathing. What is meant by that is that it make irrelevant all the breathing problems of the L series head.

 

You absolutely do NOT need to modify the a stock L series engine at all to run a turbocharging system.  The stock compression ratio of 8.5:1 is perfect for turbocharging. It is a waste of money to port, polish, put in domed pistons, etc. The only mod to an L series that is worthwhile is to O ring the head, but even that is not necessary when running a T03.5 or T04 up to but absolutely not past 15 psi.

 

In case you don't think 15 PSI is enough on an L18, mine would go 0-100 in 11.1 seconds using the Rajay from a Crown kit at only 10 PSI. While we never carefully measured 0-100 at 15 PSI, it was much faster, about mid 9.5 seconds to 100 mph. Please note that this was also on a stock crate L18 from Nissan. That 510 would handily outrun c6 vettes to 120 mph using 12 psi. I geared my car tall with a CA 5speed, and 3.54 R200. It would top 160 mph. Despite this, in (somewhat) normal driving, I got 20-22 mpg, which is about what I get out of my MazdaSpeed Miata, which I baby! The worst mileage I every got out of that turbo car with the Rajay was 13.5 mpg, but that was a tank of nothing but really hard running at 12, 15, and even a short 18 PSI test, with lots of acceleration runs and hard closed course work. 

 

This was on Dunlop D40M2 and Bridgestone RE71 street rubber. After playing around with Lotus Super Sevens, I realized I should have been running on Yokohama treaded racing tires. I could have dropped those 0-100 times by at least a 1/2 second on Yoko's. The sticky street rubber would easily spin at 60 mph in 5th gear just by depressing the throttle when the boost gauge was reading 0 psi.

 

BTW, this 510 was heavy, with AC, nice interior and sound system, lots of noise insulation making it as quiet as a car like a Ford Taurus, and some body stiffening. It weighed over 2500 lbs. It was not a light 510. 

 

You do not need EFI or an intercooler to get this performance. And on an L18, you do not need over a 2 -2 1/4 exhaust system with a Corvair Turbo muffler to get that power. I remember this guy who went by the moniker "Turbo Tom" back in the early '90's who used to preach that you couldn't get over 180 hp unless you had at least a 3" exhaust, and it had to be oh so smooth and free flowing. Bunk, we alway figured he was actually losing power because he failed to pay attention to the rule that turbos work on having sufficient back pressure. 

 

A simple draw through system using a single SU type carbuerator and a water/alcohol injection system using  windshield washer motor with a simple jet into the intake with a pressure (Hobbs) switch set (usually) at 7 psi will provide excellent fuel flow and plenty of cooling of the charge.

 

An SU carb is a wonderful device for a draw through system because the variable venturi opens due to atmospheric pressure. This works even better with turbocharging than it does with an NA motor. As the turbo needs more air and fuel, the SU responds much better to the demand than a conventional downdraft carb. And unless you have a sophisticated EFI such as a Haltech that can respond to pressure changes properly in the engine, an EFI system could actually result in too little fuel at high boost, which can potentially destroy a motor.

 

If I were designing a system now, I would be looking at ceramic ball bearing turbos, probably of T03.5 or T03/3.5 or T03 or 3.5 / 4 hybrids. I would only recommend using turbos with internal wastegates. External wastegates are a plumbing nusance. And all the ones I've seen were noisy. The T04 Rajay I used produced a lot of boost without overheating the charge, but the equal sized impellers did result in boost coming up a bit slow, at around 3000 rpm. A smaller turbo will produce more heat, causing detonation, which is a deadly no-no. A slightly smaller impeller (T03, 3.5??) on the exhaust side, coupled with a T04 class impeller on the blower side would spin up faster while keeping the volume up.

 

I should make the point that contrary to many still held beliefs, turbochargers do not need, nor do they even really work best at higher than normal RPM's. Despite what I just wrote about boost coming up at about 3k, there was no need, nor did it much help going past 5000 rpm. And while boost came on at about 3000 rpm, once, and anytime the boost gauge read 0 psi, just a 1/4 inch drop of the throttle would send the boost to maximum boost immediately. 

 

A note on intercoolers. First, water/alcohol injection is much more effective at keeping temperatures down and cooling the charge, reducing the chance of detonation. An intercooler needs far more volume than is available on most street vehicles to sufficiently cool the air to help. Plus, street vehicles are not constantly moving, which doesn't help to keep the intercooler cool. 

 

The nice thing about a turbocharged car is that the power is there when you need or want it, but it behaves like a gentle, normal car when you don't. And a turbocharged street car that is quiet is actually faster than one putting out a lot of noise. I always thought that was so cool. Almost all I heard was the whine of the compressor when it spooled up, while it was sinking me deep into the seatback. 

 

If you build a turbo 510 using an L18 with a simple draw through SU, a simple under $100 water/alcohol system, and then stomp a SR20 or some new Vette. Even better than using an L18 would be to use an L20b if you have one. Or build an LZ22. You don't need high rpm with a turbo, and the L20b/LZ22 can use Z car clutches. As good as 2000 Roadster clutches are, Z car clutches are even better, and cheaper.

 

While I probably won't build another L turbo, or even another 510, I am considering a system from scratch for an inline 6 Ford 240 or a Mopar 225 slant 6.

[Lockleaf]

Please defend your statement that turbos, or any engine for that matter, require backpressure.

 

Any backpressure on a turbos turbine will slow it down and increase stress on the turbo. After the down pipe, exhaust just needs to be large enough to allow escape. Larger than that won't help, but under boost, a turbo pushes the exhaust through itself by pushing the intake air in to the engine, so larger won't hurt either.

 

Backpressure helping engines is a myth. Exhaust velocity and scavenging are what help power, backpressure just being a thing that is present.

[DatsSully]

 

 

In case you don't think 15 PSI is enough on an L18, mine would go 0-100 in 11.1 seconds using the Rajay from a Crown kit at only 10 PSI. While we never carefully measured 0-100 at 15 PSI, it was much faster, about mid 9.5 seconds to 100 mph. Please note that this was also on a stock crate L18 from Nissan. That 510 would handily outrun c6 vettes to 120 mph using 12 psi. I geared my car tall with a CA 5speed, and 3.54 R200. It would top 160 mph. Despite this, in (somewhat) normal driving, I got 20-22 mpg, which is about what I get out of my MazdaSpeed Miata, which I baby! The worst mileage I every got out of that turbo car with the Rajay was 13.5 mpg, but that was a tank of nothing but really hard running at 12, 15, and even a short 18 PSI test, with lots of acceleration runs and hard closed course work. 

 

 

I know it's kind of off topic but I'm really curious about the CA transmission swap, is it a direct bolt on, did you make an adapter plate, or swap the bellhousing, etc?

 

Also great write up by the way, I really enjoyed reading it and it was really insightful.

[datzenmike]

Back pressure is just resistance to exhaust flow. Any resistance and the engine has to push through it. A larger diameter with fewer and larger radius smooth curves and shorter length would have less back pressure. Any type of 'muffler' or resonator will add back pressure. The ideal size pipe is barely possible to imagine because engines operate over a large RPM and gas volume range. You want maximum gas velocity just short of adding 'back pressure'. What works perfectly at 5K is much too large at 2.5K. The perfect pipe would increase in diameter as exhaust volume increases. Most run way too much pipe. Increasing the diameter of the pipe by 2 times will increase the flow by 4 times. So a 1.75" pipe replaced by a 2" will flow over 30% more air. 

[Lockleaf]

I'm a fan of David Vizard and his research. In his opinion, exhaust components (piping, resonators, mufflers, etc) should be sold by cfm rating, just how we sell intake components, as opposed to just the inch diameter. Diameter of a resonator doesn't matter as compared to how much air it flows. He discusses how if you connected a 3 inch pipe to a 5 inch resonator then back to 3 inch pipe, so long as they flowed equal max cfm, you would have an optimal resonator setup. And he has the dyno research to back it up.

[datzenmike]

Again, what works at max RPM isn't optimal the rest of the RPM range. Where does your engine spend 99.99998% of the time? yup... not at max RPMs. Aim for good mid range flow and high gas velocity. Mufflers lower the sound level by slowing and delaying the exhaust pulse through them. Instead of high amplitude and short duration it becomes less high and longer duration so perceived as a lower frequency 'boom' than a 'snap'. This is how a noise suppressor works on a gun. Sound energy delayed over time is less noticeable to the ear. Run the largest 'muffler' you can find to reduce the dreaded 'back pressure'.