Crazy Datsun 510

[datzenmike]

yeah, I think dual transmissions is a good idea. The motorcycle clutch won't like you if you're using it all the time. With two trannys you wont have to figure out new clutch/shifter controls, and you can use the motorcylce gears for different types of driving. Pull up to an autocross, put it in 1st, maybe you'll get 3 gears on a tight course. Daily driving, motorcycle trans in 3rd, ighway, 6th. You'll still have reverse, you can run a regular cluch and flywheel (might be tricky) and the speedo will still work :D

 

just an idea

 

Basically you are reducing the car's weight by about 100 lbs and adding a much smaller motor with all it's torque and HP at 8,000 to 9,000 RPMs and up. Getting to that range while dragging almost a ton of dead weight is a daunting task for that motor and clutch. Having a stock tranny in first gear will help.

 

Now (very roughly) with a 2 foot diameter tire and a 3.70 rear end and a car first gear of about 3 to one... 6th gear at 14,000 RPMs on the bike engine will be (about) 90 MPH. This is how fast the 510 with an L16 would go if it could wind to 14,000 in 1st gear.

 

Lets look at it another way... NO transmission, just direct drive to the bike transmission (1 in 1 out) For a 2 foot diameter tire with a 3.70 rear end, the engine at 14,000 RPMs the car would theoretically go 270 MILES PER HOUR!!! Highly unrealistic, in reality you would not get out of 2nd or 3rd because of wind resistance. A transmission or some gear reduction is needed. Period!

 

You won't need a stock clutch or flywheel, there's nothing to bolt it to, besides you won't be shifting the stock tranny, only the bike 6 spd. Remember, 1st is good to 90 MPH!!!

 

... this issue with driveline vibration and output shaft breakage... the motorcycle uses a chain to provide the slightest amount of slack to prevent breakage... what about some sort of like... coupler. isn't there some sort of specificaly made piece that is like nylon-enforced rubber or something... bolts to oneside and then to the other, just to act as a vibration reducer?... or did i just make something up?

 

Many steering columns have something called a rag joint. It's a rubber coupling between two shafts. It would have to be pretty strong for a bike engine. Besides the stock drive shaft can easily handle an L20B or more and the bike can't put out the take off torque of any of these motors.

[Icehouse]

Basically you are reducing the car's weight by about 100 lbs and adding a much smaller motor with all it's torque and HP at 8,000 to 9,000 RPMs and up. Getting to that range while dragging almost a ton of dead weight is a daunting task for that motor and clutch. Having a stock tranny in first gear will help.

 

Now (very roughly) with a 2 foot diameter tire and a 3.70 rear end and a car first gear of about 3 to one... 6th gear at 14,000 RPMs on the bike engine will be (about) 90 MPH. This is how fast the 510 with an L16 would go if it could wind to 14,000 in 1st gear.

 

Lets look at it another way... NO transmission, just direct drive to the bike transmission (1 in 1 out) For a 2 foot diameter tire with a 3.70 rear end, the engine at 14,000 RPMs the car would theoretically go 270 MILES PER HOUR!!! Highly unrealistic, in reality you would not get out of 2nd or 3rd because of wind resistance. A transmission or some gear reduction is needed. Period!

 

 

 

Many steering columns have something called a rag joint. It's a rubber coupling between two shafts. It would have to be pretty strong for a bike engine. Besides the stock drive shaft can easily handle an L20B or more and the bike can't put out the take off torque of any of these motors.

 

 

 

Dam Mike... We are getting down the math... Where did you find the motor cycle gear ratio's? Care to post them? Maybe they are at the beginning of the thread :D If all else fails a R180 with 4x4 gears will help :D

[datzenmike]

Dam Mike... We are getting down the math... Where did you find the motor cycle gear ratio's? Care to post them? Maybe they are at the beginning of the thread :D If all else fails a R180 with 4x4 gears will help :D

 

Thats a rough guess of the Datto tranny in first gear, about 3 to one plus the 3.70 rear for the 510 (or is it a 3.90). The tire size is a total guess ... so if someone can give me the vertical height of a 510 tire I could get much closer. I have tranny charts and most are just over 3 to one in first. I'm assuming that the bike tranny is one to one in 6th gear and not over drive.

 

My idea is to use the 510 tranny locked in first and just shift the 6 speeds on the bike. 6th gear at 14,000 is about 90 MPH with a stock 510 tranny in first.

 

A 4.11 would lower the top speed and make take offs easier, but 90 MPH is ... do-able.. maybe. Lets see, carry the one... hmmm a 4.11 rear would give a top speed in first of 81 MPH. Not so bad either.

 

 

I hate math. But feel like that wing nut on the Fast and Squirrely who has 'the att, atten, ADD Deficit, whatever!' but when he workin' on turbos and FI can 'see it'. Now in high school if we were working out final top speeds with known gear ratios and tire sizes..... who knows?

[INDY510]

Here are the gear ratios off the Yamaha website:

1st gear: 37/13 (2.846) 75mph at 15k rpm

2nd gear: 37/19 (1.947)

3rd gear: 28/18 (1.556)

4th gear: 32/24 (1.333)

5th gear: 25/21 (1.190)

6th gear: 26/24 (1.083) 165mph at 15,500rpm

 

I want my top speed around 110mph.

[datzenmike]

Here are the gear ratios off the Yamaha website:

1st gear: 37/13 (2.846) 75mph at 15k rpm

2nd gear: 37/19 (1.947)

3rd gear: 28/18 (1.556)

4th gear: 32/24 (1.333)

5th gear: 25/21 (1.190)

6th gear: 26/24 (1.083) 165mph at 15,500rpm

 

I want my top speed around 110mph.

 

I worked it out for 14,000 RPMs. Let's see... at 15,500 the out put shaft is turning 14,312 RPMs.

With a 3.545 you get 96 MPH (240 auto 180)

With 3.364 you get 101 MPH. (240 std 180)

[Icehouse]

Any updates?

[tnip]

idk but i just read an article a couple weeks ago in ... custom classic truck, i think... they were building a truck for longhaul type cruises, as in, across the country and back within a week and a half or something... anyway they wanted good gas mileage and smooth power delivery. it was a late 60's early 70's full size chevy with a sbc or something. they throw a new 5 spd auto with a single overdrive in there, a shifter kit, and then this thing that bolts to the tail section that was an electronically controlled transfer case, basically, except that the only output was to the back axle. the end result is a 10 speed auto with 2 overdrives. or something like that, it effectively gives you double the available gears. the article i read had a VERY simple installation, but it was tranny specific for this app. but i don't see why it would need to be tranny specific, except for how it bolts up. ANYWAY. idk how it would work with a manual tranny. but the concept seems to solve this problem of gearing. or at least it did when i thought about it a minute ago.. idk.

[INDY510]

Icehouse what welder should I get?

I have been looking at a Hobart 115V 125 amp. for $300 brand new.

Or a 140 amp for $450

What do you think?

 

And what do you think about these mounts for $50:

[datzenmike]

idk but i just read an article a couple weeks ago in ... custom classic truck, i think... they were building a truck for longhaul type cruises, as in, across the country and back within a week and a half or something... anyway they wanted good gas mileage and smooth power delivery. it was a late 60's early 70's full size chevy with a sbc or something. they throw a new 5 spd auto with a single overdrive in there, a shifter kit, and then this thing that bolts to the tail section that was an electronically controlled transfer case, basically, except that the only output was to the back axle. the end result is a 10 speed auto with 2 overdrives. or something like that, it effectively gives you double the available gears. the article i read had a VERY simple installation, but it was tranny specific for this app. but i don't see why it would need to be tranny specific, except for how it bolts up. ANYWAY. idk how it would work with a manual tranny. but the concept seems to solve this problem of gearing. or at least it did when i thought about it a minute ago.. idk.

 

There's a law called the 'conservation of energy' it's also the first law of thermodynamics that I like to call the: "you can't get something for nuthin' law". Very simply it says that (in a closed system) energy can change form but cannot be created or destroyed.

 

It's going to require a finite amount of energy to move a vehicle of a certain size and weight a certain distance at a certain speed. No amount of gears is going to allow a hamster on his exercise wheel to push a Chevy at say twenty miles an hour for 1 mile. Just not enough power available. (it could be gear reduced to go a mile in 20 hours though)

 

As to the 10 spd 2 o/d Chevy, there would come a point where the engine would be revving so low that it did not produce enough power to push through the air and keep it's speed. I've seen bikes that went faster in 3rd than 4th. There just wasn't enough power in 4th at 100 MPH to push through the wind. Third gear was revving higher at the same speed: more power.

 

Back to the imaginary Chevy. As speed drops, you would have to give it more and more throttle, not good for mileage. This is not to say higher gears have no merit at all. Trucks are higher geared to haul heavy loads and lowering the ratio will slightly help mileage but, "you can't get something for nuttin'"

[tnip]

it's not that i don't think you know what you're talking about... cause i'm sure you do, to a point, and maybe you didn't meant to say it the way you did, maybe i'm just pmsing .. haha. and the fact is that you don't know me, so i can't assume you meant to be offensive, but i don't just pull stuff out of my ass for the hell of it.

 

http://www.gearvendors.com/cgdrive.html

 

if you look at the information for the GM NV4500 5-SPEED MANUAL, you will note that it becomes a 10spd transmission with 2 overdrives. i'm not nearly as versed as you when it comes to gear ratios, does this not do anything beneficial?

 

i couldn't find the exact article i read but that's it.

 

i could also assume that you meant that this system would not be applicable to the motorcycle transmission. there's alot i could assume, but i would like to make sure you understand that the "imaginary chevy" does exist, and apparently it tows and gets great gas mileage, all while keeping up with traffic.

 

i understand exactly what you mean about a bike pulling better in 3rd than 4th. but i was bringing up something designed for a truck which potentially makes WAY more power than a bike, is more efficient at putting it to the ground and is not revving as high or reaching the same speeds. i read an article about a truck, i thought it might be helpful to this project.. that's all i said.

 

and now i'm done... sorry if i sound like i'm bitching, it's just really frustrating when people assume you're making stuff up.

 

p.s. i'm perfectly aware that energy is neither created nor destroyed... who doesn't know this?

[Icehouse]

Icehouse what welder should I get?

I have been looking at a Hobart 115V 125 amp. for $300 brand new.

Or a 140 amp for $450

What do you think?

 

And what do you think about these mounts for $50:

 

 

It depends on what you want to weld. When I built my rack and pinion I used a miller 210 machine, with the variable wire and amp adjuster. I like having a full range of adjustments though :D Now I use a Lincoln 110 machine, I wouldn't trust it to weld really thick shit on my suspension but for everything else its great :D If you have access to a dryer plug in your shop or any other 220 I would get a bigger welder, it will come in handy later :D

 

 

What is the plus of those engine mounts? aluminum? I'm a cheap bastard, I would build everything :D With weight a big problem, the aluminum may help.... What is it going to bolt to? Steel is my guess.... So it may be 50$ for not much to any weight savings....

 

I do have an idea for you :D Go to your local yard and grab a set of FC brake and clutch pedals. See if they fit in a 510, they are aluminum :D Thats my contribution so far :D

[datzenmike]

Sorry tnip, (should have used those damn emoticons I guess). :D Did not mean to imply there was any BS on your part.:o I should not have said imaginary Chevy, my mistake.

 

I know you well enough to not want a misunderstanding between us. Let's move on:D

 

mike

[tnip]

... thank you... sorry i got aggrivated... misdirected mostly.

 

ha

 

i'm good with moving on.

 

same topic tho, i guess running through the stock tranny would be the same concept as this "under/overdrive" thingie?

[INDY510]

Thanks Icehouse, I have a 220 dryer plug in my garage, but how much is the cheapest 220 welder?

Why is Miller so much more than all the other companies?

Would a 125 amp Hobart be enough to make motor mounts?

Those mounts look easy to make, I would just use steel.

[kiznook]

miller machines are expensive, because they're worth it!

[Icehouse]

Miller is top of the line so they charge for it :) I think we paid 1100. That may have been with the bottle and everthing.

 

 

I bet you could build everthing with a 110 machine. I make the motor mounts on my truck with my 110 machine hooked to a 13 amp generator haha I'm surprised they haven't cracked from lack of penitration.

[tnip]

i figured i'd throw this in here rather than start a new thread about it. this looks like a very useable power source.

 

http://v-quad.com/

 

idk what kind of mods would be needed to move enough air through an engine bay to keep it cool.. but i can't imagine it would take much more than a few holes cut in the hood... says it puts out about 240 hp/ftlbs and gets 40 mpg in a bike.

[INDY510]

Yeah, that V-4 is a cool motor, I guess I am late for T-shirt designs, check out my latest Datsun art:

[INDY510]

Here is my new idea:

It is a honda st1300 V-4 with 85 ft lbs at 6,500 rpm, and it has a drive-shaft.

 

Do you think it will fit in my 510?

[INDY510]

I am trying to decide between a gsxr 1000 motor, a honda st1300 motor, or a R1 motor, or maybe a FJR 1300 shaft drive motor.

 

There is no way the R6 motor will have enough torque

[Mattndew76]

Has anyone ever tried to run two transmissions in sequence? Run a normal tranny hook up to you motor then add a second tranny reverse direction to the end of the first? Very similar to a speed amplifier for a CNC spindle to achieve 30k of rpm for engraving.

 

Matthew

[rusty510]

here ya go:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-ST1300-ST-1300-ENGINE-22000-MILES_W0QQitemZ150215225565QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item150215225565&_trksid=p3756.m20.l1116

[INDY510]

[nismopu]

PROPS on the new engine choice! The car looks pretty sick too!

[thisismatt]

Going to shift with your elbow?