Adapting Weber to Stock Air Cleaner?

[datzenmike]

Go here... https://ratsun.net/forum/53-720/

 

Over on the top right is a blue rectangular box marked START NEW TOPIC. Click that and ask away.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

18 hours ago, DIY 1985 said:

Continuing on with seeing what I can do with the factory air cleaner before I address it with a HF Diablo cut-off wheel...

 

I added a window to the maxpeedingrods-brand carb  Humm, why is my image upside down?

 

I broke (or shipping softened) the wire to the electric choke, I failed in its repair.  So, I'm looking for an electric choke; I borrowed one from my electric Weber for now, but, it's not the same.

 

Also, I managed to loosen the fuel inlet.  The brass fitting for the needle valve hasn't enough clearance to fit a 19mm wrench or socket, so, I used the little screw at the top to secure it to a crush washer, I hope it is tight enough.  Tons of details on a carb swap, starting with setting up a clean install of a relay switch to provide juice to a non-manual choked, idle cut solenoided carb.

 

Relay for the idle cut solenoid is probably overkill, but not a bad idea. I believe the power for the idle cut solenoid is keyed hot, and should be fused. Might check that before going to all the trouble of adding a relay.

[datzenmike]

Agree, just jumper it to the choke heater wire. It's fused and on/off with the ignition.

[DIY 1985]

That whole subharness in the engine bay has no power.  I was running a DGV - manual choke before.  My truck also has a fuel pump hack for power.  I figure that I probably should have a semi independent circuit for the engine-related electrical, at least until I figure out what actually needs fixing.  But, the idea of running all new wiring for the carb and fuel pump means that I can do a minor move on the coil, and have a running engine before dark, if all else electrical fails on the trail.  That, and I need at least a temporary, key-switched source to run an O2 readout, to verify the quality of the exhaust.

[captain720]

23 minutes ago, DIY 1985 said:

That whole subharness in the engine bay has no power.  I was running a DGV - manual choke before.  My truck also has a fuel pump hack for power.  I figure that I probably should have a semi independent circuit for the engine-related electrical, at least until I figure out what actually needs fixing.  But, the idea of running all new wiring for the carb and fuel pump means that I can do a minor move on the coil, and have a running engine before dark, if all else electrical fails on the trail.  That, and I need at least a temporary, key-switched source to run an O2 readout, to verify the quality of the exhaust.

I just run everything off my fender fuse block for keyed power, full video on you tube about that

[DIY 1985]

I fixed the upside down image problem in GIMP, maybe.

 

I'm using generic M8x1 studs on the valve cover.  On that stud, I needed to raise the air cleaner assembly to fit flat on the carb, so I put a M8 nut on it.  On top of that, I installed these cool OEM-Toyota washer grommets, which were supposed to work on my 2F's air cleaner assembly, but, they seem small compared to the original ones.  Then, I capped it all with a M8 fender washer, and a thin washer. Using a wrench from the bottom, I compress the washer/grommet, and it holds the air cleaner assembly with minimal metal to metal contact.

 

 

 

This is the Toyota part number for the washer/grommet.

 

And, the wing nut, for the air cleaner housing, is essentially the same thing, but, it has a captive wing nut on the same grommet/washer, again, minimizing metal-to-metal contact, but also forming a bit of a seal.  It comes from an '82 Toyota 2F gas engine, I forget the part number, but it is available.

 

 

 

 

@captain720 I like the fender fuse block for accessories.  You mentioned a ground, on the fender or bib.  I've been thinking that it would be nice to make a good connection to the horn(s) chassis, as the screw that grounds it, also attaches it thru the fender.  This means that fender contaminate can corrode the back of the electrical connection, so it might be good to add a wired connection, from the horns, to something akin to your fuse / junction block - or, that is the plan for mine.  Insuring the horn's reliability could do more for you than headrests and seatbelts, depending on the situation, just a thought.

[captain720]

@DIY 1985the ground side of the fuse block acts as a ground bus, I have ran extra wires from the fender, the negative battery post, and multiple other locations for exactly the purposes you mention

[DIY 1985]

I realize that I've strayed from my own topic a bit, but.  I'm having trouble with the auto choke at startup, the choke breaker is only so strong, and the auto choke bi-metal spring provides resistance against it.  It is really bad, because I'm leaving the stalling out multiple times to the end of the block.

 

However, I swapped the jets from my old Hitachi (?) into my clone carb.  I don't always get consistent results on my A/F readout, but I did about 200 miles yesterday, and the economy seems to be about as good as my old Weber (16/30 mpg city/highway).  Maybe my O2 sensor is fouled, or my exhaust has a bad ground?  It seems that it is always one step at a time with tuning a carb.

[datzenmike]

You have a Weber 32/36??? The O² plays no part in a Weber's operation. The O² sensor signal goes to the electronics box which would adjust the solenoid on the stock carburetor or the EFI on the Z24i engine. If you have a Weber carburetor this is all disconnected.

 

Take the top off the air filter when engine is cold. The choke flap may appear partly closed but at any rate it should snap fully closed when you step on the gas. This stepping on the gas sets the choke and the fast idle ON, in preparation of starting. The electric choke slowly warms and turns the choke off over 8-10 minutes. The electric choke can be loosened and turned towards richer or leaner to increase the warm up time or shorten it.

[DIY 1985]

The Weber is on pause.  I took it off because I wanted to try the stock set-up before cutting up the OEM cleaner, and not having a source for the air cleaner gasket.  I also like taking a cautious approach to modifying original parts, first.  I'll try to score a used air cleaner at the U-Pull.  Then, I'll reinstall my DGV or DGEV.

 

The O2 sensor is connected to an aftermarket readout, mounted in the spot that once had a clock and tach.

 

I basically understand the auto choke principle, it is just I'm having trouble finding the right spot, and I only get one cold morning per day to tinker.  I've always been a manual choke fan (Land Cruiser), but, I'm curious how much I can bring the 720 back to stock, desmogged, and running in a desirable way.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Curiosity killed the cat, you know?

 

I understand wanting what you want, but the DGV (or DGAS) has been proven.
 

Many people give me hell for converting FJ60/62s to LS power, but if your intention is to drive the beast, why not LS? Sure, they could be made to work well with Toyota power, but the LS is a language spoken everywhere. Parts and resources abound with the LS. Same principle goes here - the Weber is a carb that everyone understands, so if you run into trouble down the road, more resources are available to you.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[matrophy]

mklotz made a template for the cutout to mount a stock air cleaner to a DGEV. I attached it here. I have this on my list but my first thought is if I cut out the bottom of the z24 air cleaner, there is nothing to hold the filter in place but I haven't looked at that closely. If anyone has done it with a z24 air cleaner, I'd like to see photos

weberaircleaner.pdf

[DIY 1985]

On 10/31/2021 at 11:03 AM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

Curiosity killed the cat, you know?

 

I understand wanting what you want, but the DGV (or DGAS) has been proven.
 

Many people give me hell for converting FJ60/62s to LS power, but if your intention is to drive the beast, why not LS? Sure, they could be made to work well with Toyota power, but the LS is a language spoken everywhere. Parts and resources abound with the LS. Same principle goes here - the Weber is a carb that everyone understands, so if you run into trouble down the road, more resources are available to you.

I'm not exactly a 'purist,' but my builds might reflect it.  I appreciate these trucks for their engineering done by the original factory, even dealing with the obvious misses done by the OEM.  I wouldn't want a LS because I wouldn't want fuel injection.  But, I would love to build a Land Cruiser with a Chevy Stovebolt, as getting away from a stroker-six to the bore/stroke ratio of a SBC would be a nice change for an orphaned rig without a good 2F, or 3FE, already in it.  Bumping up the redline while fitting the general proportions of the engine bay, keeping it, or converting to, simple fuel and spark, all these things plus, using the same bellhousing as your LS.  BTW, are you on Ih8MUD? - my code name is 'Dizzy.'

 

Just having the vacuum-actuated secondary on the Hitachi clone is worth it.  My z24 doesn't sound too good if you use too much throttle in certain conditions, and, I'd rather listen to the radio than think about the merits of a mechanically-actuated-progressive secondary.  Plus, I love getting thru the challenge, as turning wrenches in the driveway is just an extension of the destination/adventure.

[DIY 1985]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:49 PM, matrophy said:

mklotz made a template for the cutout to mount a stock air cleaner to a DGEV. I attached it here. I have this on my list but my first thought is if I cut out the bottom of the z24 air cleaner, there is nothing to hold the filter in place but I haven't looked at that closely. If anyone has done it with a z24 air cleaner, I'd like to see photos

weberaircleaner.pdf 18.55 kB · 6 downloads

I'm not going to get into it all, but, the '85 Z24 air cleaner doesn't even have the tie-down wing nut centered on the lid, as the whole thing is at an angle to the air horn plane so that the assembly clears the insulation on the factory hood.

[DIY 1985]

Got the DGV back in there.  I couldn't get it to cleanly start with the clone Hitachi auto choke.

 

 

Above is a 10-inch STP air filter that is called out for the '85 z24.  It is a made in USA filter that is inexpensive relative to the Weber.  The upper and lower gaskets are a section of 1/8" vacuum tube, bulk from NAPA, connected end-to-end with a section of Harbor Freight electrical tape (as opposed to the Ace stuff which is a lighter glue that I prefer for a wiring harness wrap).

 

 

 

16g steel 'comal'  It would look better with black paint.

 

 

Questionably clears the hood - the 11" plate really makes the filter poke up to the front of the hood.  But, no problems, did about 200 miles yesterday.  I might need nylock nuts, so far the vac tube has kept things snug, but, it would really not be fun to learn first hand about what happens if things get a little loose.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by DIY 1985

[datzenmike]

Look 100% better than the Weber air filter!!!

[DIY 1985]

I'm the fifth owner.  At some point there was a big hole made.  So that space now houses my air / fuel ratio readout.  I kinda hate the LEDs, especially at night, so, I'll probably unhook it, but, it does tell me some information about how the carb is performing, like jet changes and idle mix adjustments.  It sometimes just hits the floor on the lean side off the charts, but, it is kinda inconsistent.  However, my spark plugs and fuel economy reflect a pretty good mix, and throttle response doesn't suggest that it is so lean that the carb is lean or O2 wasn't involved in combustion.  I'm running EGR, so that might be part of the extra lean reading?

 

 

That light is really annoying.  Maybe I can find an analog anything, that is not illuminated or LCD, to put in a 2" hole?  And, never mind the cigarette lighter socket, PO.

 

Do you see my choke cable button above the e-brake?  I used the O'Reiley cable instead of the Weber Redline Z24 DGV kit cable.  The Redline cable was too stiff, and I didn't use but sheet metal screws in the plastic dash, I thought it would eventually break from excessive force.  So that cable actually made it into the other rig as a 'hand-throttle.'  It pulls on the accelerator pedal so I can work the brake and clutch; it came factory if your FJ40 came with a PTO winch, IIRC.

 

[DIY 1985]

When you hold the Weber-type filter up to the light you can make out shapes behind the filter, in this case the lamp.  This is not the case for the Microgard, or STP filter.  The Weber-type filter has such narrow pleats that there is more of the membrane facing in or out, as opposed to internal to the filter, if that makes sense.

 

 

 

Microgard filter below.

 

 

Pardon the mess in the lab.

[datzenmike]

EGR uses a metered amount of exhaust gasses that contain almost no free oxygen as it was all used to burn the fuel. It's inert so it can't cause it to go lean, and is used to simply take up space in the combustion chamber and contributes nothing. As it takes the place of some of the fuel and air, the combustion temperatures are lower and less oxides of nitrogen are formed. There is no EGR at idle of full throttle, so performance, at least at WOT, is not affected.

 

My wide band and motorcycle slide carburetors always goes rich when I let off suddenly then goes lean on deceleration.

 

Because the Weber filter is so small it has to be thin in order to pass enough air. A larger filter can be more restrictive and filter much better because it is so large.

 

 

[DIY 1985]

I painted it.  I'll take a break for now regarding routing air from the exhaust manifold heat shield, but, it is still in the planning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone wants to try this set-up, PM me.

[weldingrod]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:19 AM, datzenmike said:

Look 100% better than the Weber air filter!!!

Has anyone ever tried a two barrel Holly carb?

[datzenmike]

I think so but was on a modified engine for racing? But like the 38/38 Weber it isn't progressive and both barrels tip in together. You'll have to learn how to drive into the throttle. Also what's the CFM rating on a Holly? 390?? The 32/36 Weber is around 270 and it's a little large. The 38/38 is definitely too large for under 2.4 liters.

 

Try it and let us know how drive-able it is.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

A 2 barrel Holley can work well on a built L motor, but on a stock motor...I'd run a DGV instead.