What Paint To Use On The Frame

[620slodat]

I''m looking for first hand experience with a frame paint. What I am looking for is something that will be very durable and hold up for several years, and hopefully be UV stable/resistant. I have never yet used any of the specialty paints, but I have read about POR-15, and less about Rust Bullet and Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator. From others experience POR-15 sticks very well (even to your skin), but it needs to be covered over because it isn't UV resistant. An extra layer of paint is more expense IF POR-15 is used. Rust Bullet and Eastwood's I know very little about. Something other than these three is good to know about also, so if you have first hand experience with anything that fits these parameters I want to hear about it.

 

What I am looking for is:

1. Tough (UV resistant), will hold up for several years, preferably without having to put a coat of something else over it. If it takes less UV resistance to get a very tough paint I will consider it, or if it takes top coating I will also consider it.

2. Once the can is opened the paint needs to be able to be re-opened within a few days and be usable. From what I have read POR-15 fails at this.

3. Being able to apply over a cleaned, but rusty surface is very important. 

4. Being in the Northwet (misspelling intended) means that moisture is a fact of life. Before application, moisture resistance of the pre-applied paint is paramount. If waiting for dryer weather is needed it means that I won't be able to apply anything until summer. Not good!

 

A little background is important. I now have a rolling frame, and I want to be able to clean and paint it. I will be working in an unheated, but dry and well ventilated area (partially open to the air). Because of previous injuries I MAY not be able to complete the cleaning and painting all at once. Depending on how I am feeling I may have to stop part way, close the can, and re-start at a later time (maybe later the same day, maybe the next day). I do have a spray gun I found in a place I lived several years ago, but have never used. Consequently, I most likely will need to brush on the paint. I do have a small compressor if needed, but no air dryer.

 

As previously stated, first hand experience is important.

 

I have been reading ratsun for several months now, but do not remember anybody saying anything, except maybe in a passing manner.

 

[Crashtd420]

I have alot of first hand experience with the por 15.... I'll have to send a longer message about it tomorrow as it's late for me.... I actually sprayed my entire 521 frame, all the suspension,  the entire cab inside and out, and every body panel...

I think it would be easier to clean the entire frame first and try to do the painting all in one shot....

The conditions you stated it will take a while to dry..... I painted my frame and cab at around 80 degrees and it was still 6 to 8 hour wait time before I could put a second coat...

I was spraying it, I'll get into that tomorrow....

Theres tricks to keeping it fresh to reuse, and top coating is only needed it the frame is gone be exposed to sunlight, even if it was it just turns color .....

[Utahskier]

1 hour ago, Crashtd420 said:

I have alot of first hand experience with the por 15.... I'll have to send a longer message about it tomorrow as it's late for me.... I actually sprayed my entire 521 frame, all the suspension,  the entire cab inside and out, and every body panel...

I think it would be easier to clean the entire frame first and try to do the painting all in one shot....

The conditions you stated it will take a while to dry..... I painted my frame and cab at around 80 degrees and it was still 6 to 8 hour wait time before I could put a second coat...

I was spraying it, I'll get into that tomorrow....

Theres tricks to keeping it fresh to reuse, and top coating is only needed it the frame is gone be exposed to sunlight, even if it was it just turns color .....

I have used POR15 as well and I like it.  You can buy it in a pack of small cans instead of big quart/gallon which solves the problem of it going bad on you.  I brushed it on.  Wear gloves and clothes you don’t care about and put something down for drips if you have a nice garage floor because that stuff isn’t coming off once it’s on.

[Utahskier]

https://www.por15.com/POR-15-Six-Pack-Rust-Preventive-Coating

[Crashtd420]

7 hours ago, Utahskier said:

https://www.por15.com/POR-15-Six-Pack-Rust-Preventive-Coating

That's not bad but not really cost effective..... just depends on how much you need.... I used almost 2 gallons covering and rust proofing my truck....

I bought a gallon and 6 quart cans from home depot.... 

The biggest problem is you need to keep the por out of the channel the lid seats.... 

I have even heard people store the paint upside down, not sure what that really does, just something I heard....

The only place I seemed to have problems was on the welded seams for some reason..... I have to got back and do a few touch ups.... flat panels it stuck no problem.....

I highly recommend doing all 3 steps....

Degrease

Metal prep 

Paint......

That's why I think your better off cleaning the whole frame, then do the degrease, metal prep, and get the painting done all in one shot.....

Even if it does flash rust slightly the metal prep will take care of that and por likes it any how..... 

 

 

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Ideally, the frame would be absolutely rust free and clean, I mean really clean. It doesn't have to be bare metal, but it should be free of any scale, dirt, grease and maybe the added layers of paint that may have accumulated over the years. If you can, use a metal etch to help clean the metal. You will have to hose it or pressure wash it off for the paint to stick. I use Krud Kutter Metal Etch. Be careful though, it will take the plating off bright parts.

 

If painting in the cold, be ware that the paint may not dry at all. Some paints require a certain temperature to activate the hardeners and if it's below this temp, it won't even attempt to dry. I have a propane heater in the shop for this very reason. I put the heater near whatever I'm painting to warm it up before paint, and then use it to help activate the paint to make sure it dries. Putting the paint in the house next to the fireplace or somewhere warm will help too.

 

I don't use POR15. I think it's a marketing gimmick and the same properties can be found in many other chassis paints. The primer I use is self etching primer from SEM. The paint I use is high in ceramic engine paint. I have painted at least ten complete chassis over the past couple years with this method and so far so good. I've used this method on axles going back ten years and those are holding up fine too.

[Crashtd420]

I actually didnt think the por 15 was as great as the claims..... when I chose to use it I really didnt know what to use and I wanted rust proofing.....

 

Stroffgren does it for a living he definitely knows better than me what works..... I stuck with the por simply for consistancy since I used it basically as a primer coat on everything, and had top coat the exterior.... I used another brand single stage top coat... . 

[Moist Lightning]

Epoxy primer is the best you can get in terms of moisture barrier and rust prevention but you probably want a clean frame first. Additionally it must be topcoated as it is not uv resistant. I just blasted , epoxied and top coated a frame.

There is a slight learning curve when figuring out what  epoxy primer to use. Solvent based high solids for primer, solvent based mid to low solids for sealer.

[Crashtd420]

See that was my problem, lack of knowledge, I had absolutely no clue about painting before I did mine... 

So I had a big learning curve.... 

[620slodat]

6 hours ago, Crashtd420 said:

See that was my problem, lack of knowledge, I had absolutely no clue about painting before I did mine... 

So I had a big learning curve.... 

 What Crashtd420 said here is EXACTY why I started this thread. I spent almost 40 years in cabinet shops, but deliberately avoided doing anything with spraying a finish. Because of my experience I know that knowledge is important to a well done job, and I needed the knowledge available here. 

 

The only area I have for doing this frame is a corner of my woodshed (dirt floor). Rain comes from the south, southwest here and I have a bale tarp up on the south side and an enclosed porch (used to be a carport) is the west side, so rain cannot come in. That is why I stated what I did in my first post, dry, but no heat. The outside temperature is what I have to deal with here. The usual winter time temperature here is in the 30's to low 40's at night, with the daytime temperatures in the 40's and sometimes in the low 50's. I may be able to tarp off part of the woodshed that the frame is in and put a little heat in there at times. I heat with wood, so there is no problem with warming up paint ahead of time.

 

I am really glad that several different people posted their experience and ideas for painting and type of paint. Because of external circumstances I may not be able to clean the frame all at one time. However, because of my experiences I expected to be told that the frame must be clean. The frame does have some dirt, pealing paint in some places, and lots of grease in places, but fortunately no heavy rust.

 

Stoffregen, you said that you prefer a self etching primer from SEM, but didn't give a name for the top coat paint. Is there a name for something that you prefer? 

 

Moist Lightning, you said that an epoxy primer holds up the best, and gave your experience with primer and paint. Are there names for the ones you prefer?

 

I know from my experience that professionals have preferences, and that often times different brand names can be just as good as others, or circumstances can dictate one brand over another. That's why I need information to make the proper decisions for my situation. 

 

Thank you everybody, and if others have different experiences that haven't been stated yet, I am open to hearing everything so I can make decisions.

 

[Moist Lightning]

for epoxy,

any dupont (now axalta) brand is pretty good. on the cheaper side they have a nasons brand.

Otherwise people swear by (forgot brand atm, will update when i remember)

In canada i found endura to be the best bang for buck.

 

When doing my research prior to painting my frame. it seemed the general consensus was self-etch prior to the epoxy being easily available, but now seems most are switching to epoxy. That being said the self etech is still a good solution that will provide good rust prevention. 

 

Other notes for epoxy

Will take a loooong time to dry if its too cold

Needs good ventilation (new laws have reduced the amount of hazardous chems in it but still bad to inhale).

The epoxy must be mixed in the correct proportions as it is a catalyzed reaction. however this is also why it is so good, it essentially encapsulates the frame in plastic.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by Moist Lightning

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I left out the brand name of paint because it's almost embarrassing. I use Dupli-Color Engine Enamel in Low Gloss Black - https://duplicolor.com/product/engine-enamel-with-ceramic

 

Temperature in the shed is really going to be your biggest problem.

 

The most common job here in my shop requires that the bodies be removed from the frames, so I have been taking the opportunity to have the frames blasted as a complete chassis (minus motor/trans). This saves a ton of time for me and the bonus is that the blasters apply an epoxy primer for me at very little additional cost. If you have the means to have your complete chassis or even just the frame blasted, it really does make the job so much nicer in the end and it does save a ton of time cleaning. What I can do in two days, they can do in an hour.

 

I have yet to use a gun and booth for chassis painting. The method I have developed works out quite well and looks great.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by Stoffregen Motorsports

[rinigado]

recently painted the frame on my 521

 

 

rust-oleum rusty metal primer and rust-oleum semi gloss black with a spraygun. The truck is from so-cal, so my frame wasn't in bad shape, just surface scale. Wire cup on a grinder to clean most of the frame. I did sand blast in tighter spots, and finally brushed on some phosphoric acid (ospho, jasco, etc) on much of the frame before priming. I gave a quick wash of any areas treated with jasco prior to spraying, to make sure there wasn't any leftover un-consumed acid that'd show through after painting. Touchup later is simple and cheap. Wire wheel is cheap if your time isn't worth anything, but going over it all with a wire wheel is time consuming.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by rinigado

[620slodat]

It sounds to me like Moist Lightning, Stoffregen, and rinigado are close in their processes, mainly just a difference in the type of paint used. Anyway, whats being said is cleaning and de-rusting VERY well is the key to success. The processes/paint may differ slightly, but the end product will show a lot of care if cleaning is carefully done. 

 

I will need to carefully check drying temperatures needed for the different products and compare to the air temperatures I am dealing with. I already have Ospho and what I am wondering about is if cleaning and then using Ospho for the rust left behind will keep new rust from forming if I have to let the frame set for a while for a warmer temperature. Maybe I should do whatever modifying/welding/changing needs done while waiting for warmer weather. Anyhow, my big question will be how much time after Ospho application can be allowed before starting the paint process.

 

In my searching/looking for painting processes I found this video and found it interesting and informative.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQMzUkEKaBo

[rinigado]

I tried evaporust initially on a part of the frame, but based on the results figured it'll take forever and cost a mint to do the whole thing that way. For the frame treatment seemed a bit overkill. The one good thing about it though is if you brush it on and leave it on (i.e. let it dry on the metal), it'll seal somewhat and keep rust away until you get back to it the next weekend. Getting close enough, then red primer and rust paint should last plenty long where I'm at, but I don't have salt or much inclement weather to deal with here, so ymmv.

[620slodat]

I'm 70 miles inland from the ocean and we seldom have snow here, and when we do have snow the roads aren't salted (sand instead), so I don't have salt to deal with. But, I do have lots of inclement weather. Rain (humidity) and the temperature are my two biggest problems to overcome.

[wayno]

There is such a thing as over kill, if it is going to be a driver I would not make it brand new, I did none of this to any of my conversions, the most I do is pressure wash it and hit it with some Rustoleum rattle can paint, I can see pressure washing it and hitting any surface rust spots with POR15 or something like it and then spraying it with the rust inhibiting rattle can paint.

When I pressure wash them I get all the dirt out of everywhere possible, I have even put the frame on its side in the past using my engine hoist/lift so I could get it at it from the bottom also, and I paint inside the cab mount arms also so I get the dirt out of them areas also, for me what happens is if I try doing it the way your talking about it takes too long and I loose interest, it takes time to get it perfect and that is what it sounds like you are trying to do.

I would rather see you drive this conversion rather than lay on the ground to see how pretty the frame is, drivers are way more fun than working on them, I have said this before, if it will not move and stop under its own power it drives me crazy, my chassis/frame conversions happen fast now.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It does take some time to get it all done. Maybe two days of prep and paint. And yes, a simple cleaning with chemicals (like purple power) followed by a good pressure wash could give you all you need to get the paint to stick. The scale stuff can easily be handled with a wire wheel (different sizes may be required, a cup brush on a die grinder will help get in all the tiny spots), and another washing after the wire wheel process using Krud Kutter, but doing it this way takes about half the time of doing a full blown paint restoration.

 

If you're good at knowing where to draw the line, you could get it done without too much hassle.

[620slodat]

Thank you everybody for chiming in with your experiences and opinions. Like has been mentioned by several, I'm going to have to be careful with my aspirations. I'm not after a show stopper finished item. What I want is a paint job that will hold up for many years without breaking the bank, and without any rust. I spent about 15 years total (three different jobs) installing cabinets, the last several years with custom cabinets in upper end homes. Because of this I tend to go for the shine, where I don't need that kind of polish with this frame. I'm going to have to keep that in mind. My dreaming tends to get out of hand with the finished product. 

 

What was said about most of the frame never being seen is true, however I've had some problems in the past with rattle bomb paint. From what was said on here, and with my experience, prep is the key.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I agree. Most rattle can paint jobs I have seen suck. They peel after months. Which is why I was reticent to mention my method, but with proper prep, it can last as long as the original paint.

[datsunrides]

Prep is key. Because I have the room and equipment, I usually will sandblast, epoxy prime, and use a single stage enamel with a actual HVLP gun. However, I have had good success just getting the frame as clean as possible with scrapers, wire wheels, and degreasers. Then give it a final wash with diluted simple green or similar and let thoroughly dry. Then I use VHT epoxy rattle can directly on the frame, no primer. Seems pretty durable. As Soff has said, SEM makes good products also, but are on the pricey side for rattle can, but are way better (IMO) than typical box store rattle can.