510 Z20e engine position and vibration

[brodster]

As some of you know, I have been swapping a 1980 Z20e into my Datsun 510. The good news is that we fired it up two nights ago, and I drove it around the block last night. Engine runs great!

 

Pictures are below my lengthy post.

 

The issues:

 

1. Is the engine and transmission in the correct position (fore/aft). I have never done a swap before, let alone a swap and 5-speed dogleg installation. For the dogleg, I rotated the stock crossmember and spaced it down with thick washers. The shifter seems really far forward, but I noticed that people with doglegs often bend their shifters, which leads me to believe this somewhat normal. The engine mounts consist of a passenger side stock 510 mount placed on the driver side, and a modified Z22 mount front a 720. The stock 510 mount leaves the rubber isolator pretty tweaked, so that is on my list to correct. I will probably fab a mount. From the slight angle on the transmission, I think it would be beneficial to lower the driver side motor height just a hair. However, from how everything fits up, the engine looks okay, albeit a bit forward in the engine bay. Maybe that is just my eyes playing games on me.

 

2. Last night on the first drive, I noticed a vibration starting when I started accelerating briskly to approx 40 mph (not sure on actual speed since speedo not hooked up). Each time I backed off the throttle. I didn't have a chance to drive it faster due to the streets I was on, so I am not sure if the vibrations will go away.

 

Here's the facts: New tires and balance on 14" 280ZX wheels. Flywheel was resurface and slighlty lightened. It was installed in the same position it came out. Driveline was installed back in the original flange position from what I could tell from my year old sharpie marks on it. I did rev the engine up pretty high at lower gears, so the problem doesn't seem RPM related, which leads me to believe it is a driveshaft balance or powertrain alignment issue. Maybe some of the tweaks I see in the rubber isolators signify a misaligned drivetrain.

 

 

3. I miscalculated the position of the oilpan. The oilpan contacts the engine crossmember. Again, when I get a chance I want to modify the oilpan (and add more oil capacity) but I was thinking that in the short term I could lift the engine a couple inches and "massage"/flatten the oil pan in that region. You can see in the pic below the rub mark where the new black paint has worn off after 15 minutes of test driving. How much clearance is necessary here? How you recommend mitigating this issue until I can get the pan off and fix the problem correctly? Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bananahamuck]

I would get the pan to stop hitting first , you might just be over thinking it.

[datzenmike]

So....

 

Is that a Z series dogleg ?

 

The Z20 and the L20B blocks are pretty much identical so the motor placement is the same just thje rotational tilt difference between L and Z.

[brodster]

Yes, it's a 1980 510 transmission (Z-series dogleg). I just don't have a 510 with an L16 or L20b to compare it against at my disposal right now. I have looked up numerous pictures, but they are kind of deceiving regarding depth. And I can't find any good pictures looking down at the back of the block (showing the distance between the firewall and engine).

 

And yes, I always overthink everything.

[bananahamuck]

So since your asking.. measured from front of backing plate to firewall just to the side of throttle linkage and got 2 3/4 inches almost exactly ..........picture to show where i got measurement.

 

2 3/4 inches

 

 

[HRH]

That one mount is stressed big time, probably due to the crossmember issue. Get that fixed first, your vibration may go away.

[DatWifey]

I'm pretty sure that the motor sat fucked up like that on the mount before we even had an oil pan on it (we did test fitting without the pan while Brody was fabbing up the pan on it now). Meaning that I am pretty sure that the oil pan/cross member humping isn't what's making the mount rotate like that.

[ggzilla]

Oil pan hitting the crossmember will cause vibration. Get that fixed first.

[brodster]

Thanks for comments and measurements. That is what I needed.

 

Also, the oilpan was about 1/8" away from the crossmember before I started the motor. It seems like running the engine and driving it settled things into place. Regardless, I will fix that first and head for the motor mount once I verify the engine is in the correct position to begin with.

 

Thanks

[datzenmike]

Yes, it's a 1980 510 transmission (Z-series dogleg). I just don't have a 510 with an L16 or L20b to compare it against at my disposal right now. I have looked up numerous pictures, but they are kind of deceiving regarding depth. And I can't find any good pictures looking down at the back of the block (showing the distance between the firewall and engine).

 

And yes, I always overthink everything.

 

If you can get them... get the '80 510 mounts. The metal brackets from the block to the rubber isolators. The washers on the left side says that the left MM is too short. A taller one would lift the oil pan clear also.

 

The right side 720 mount may also be too short as the 720s didn't have a crossmember like the 510 in the way.

 

The S110 (200sx) used a Z20 and a Z22 motor. All '80-'83 used the same L&R mounts and had to clear a car cross member.

[brodster]

So since your asking.. measured from front of backing plate to firewall just to the side of throttle linkage and got 2 3/4 inches almost exactly ..........picture to show where i got measurement.

 

2 3/4 inches

 

 

 

Well I measured per the image below, from the transmission/engine plate back to the firewall. I got 3 3/4 inches. I am not quite understanding your measurement. It looks like you are measuring from the inside of your straight edge, not the side lined up with the backing plate, to the firewall. If so that seems like your measurement matches up with mine. Not sure.

 

Edit: I see it now. You are getting 2 3/4 inches from the front of the plate. My measurement is about 3 3/4. The good news is that moving it back one inch fixes the oil pan problem. The bad news is that I now have an oil and steering linkage problem.

[brodster]

So on top of measuring the motor position, I re-inspected the driveline positioning etc. The driveline is shifted noticeably over to the passenger side. This falls in line with the suggestion of the passenger side motor mount being short. As a short term solution, I may slightly lift the motor and place some 1/4" or 3/8" plate steel in between the mount and isolator. I am thinking that will help clear the oil pan on the front and place the motor in a better position. I will research the 80's 510 mounts. Are they the same as the 200sx? if they are, they made my motor sit way to high. With those in the hood wouldn't close.

 

The second issue is shifting the motor back a bit. Like mentioned above moving it back will cause the steering linkage to hit my custom pan. That could be a big project.

[HRH]

I'm confused why the pan is custom? Maybe I missed something. If it's Z20, it should have the identical block to an L, thus, the original L16 pan would fit on without issue....? Like I said, maybe I'm missing something. All you'd have to do to have it normal is swap the front bellhousing/case with an L series bellhousing and presto, you're done.

[brodster]

I'm confused why the pan is custom? Maybe I missed something. If it's Z20, it should have the identical block to an L, thus, the original L16 pan would fit on without issue....? Like I said, maybe I'm missing something. All you'd have to do to have it normal is swap the front bellhousing/case with an L series bellhousing and presto, you're done.

 

It's just the angle of the engine. It leans somewhat opposite compared to the L-series. Because this motor tilts to the passenger side, retaining the Z-head and manifolds becomes a major issue if you want to place it like an L-engine into the engine bay. If I would've done an LZ20 or LZ22, there would have been no issues. Just use the stock mounts, pan and pickup and I would have been done.

 

People have used the stock pan and pickup, but it puts the oil sump at a very odd angle. For one it physically has to be modified to clear the crossmember with some hammer action. But most importantly, I feared oil starvation issues during corning. However, people have probably done this without any problems.

 

Also, no need to swap bellhousings if you put the Z motor in at the original angle and use a Z-dogleg tranny.

[datzenmike]

Yes, Z engine and Z transmission position is best. Sort the engine position up or down and then modify the oil pan. I have? / had a Z20E crossmember somewhere and some pictures of it and this is likely what is different and allows the Z20 oil pan to fit properly.

[brodster]

Mike, I can't find your pictures, but here are the ones I posted up in my build thread (which REALLY needs to be updated).

 

 

[Sealik]

 

 

Other than the oil pan clearance from the cross member.....how close is that trannie mount bolt to the exhaust pipe?

Pinion angle still correct?

[brodster]

Other than the oil pan clearance from the cross member.....how close is that trannie mount bolt to the exhaust pipe?

Pinion angle still correct?

 

The exhaust may be close. May be too close. Right now the exhaust is connected via aluminum beer cans and hose clamps. Still need a make a trip to get everything connected up. I will note that as a possible interference issue.

 

Pinion angle may not be correct. I did some measurments last night with my angle digital angle finder and there does seem to be some concerning things, which may get corrected when I move the motor. What is the "correct" pinion angle?

[datzenmike]

There is no correct angle to shoot for. Try to have the pinion angle equal to the transmission angle. Or in other words the tranny to driveshaft U joint angle should equal the driveshaft to diff U joint angle. This is vertically and assumes that the motor/tranny/driveshaft/differential are in a straight line. If the motor is skewed off to the side, this will introduce a horizontal bend in the driveshaft and it will vibrate.

[datzenmike]

Mike, I can't find your pictures, but here are the ones I posted up in my build thread (which REALLY needs to be updated).

 

Sorry I had to go to bed. Here's an '81 S110 crossmember. I think this is the front looking back. It may help to see this.

 

[LenRobertson]

From your first post - "...I rotated the stock crossmember and spaced it down with thick washers." There is something about crossmembers I just can't quite remember, but maybe you need to have the crossmember from an automatic car for turning it 180 degrees to work. I'm not sure rotating a manual tranny crossmember gives you the correct position for the dogleg rubber mount. The mount on a dogleg is in a slightly different position than the 510 4-speed location, by about 5/8" or 3/4", something like that. I think the mounting point is that much closer to the front of the tranny, but maybe farther toward the rear. This may be some of the reason your motor mounts look to be shoved forward. When I swapped the L20b and dogleg into my 510, I made spacers from 1" thick rectangular tubing following the "Dime Quarterly" article. When I did the install, I tried various combinations of the spacers and both auto and manual Xmembers. I know at one point, I had the engine pushed forward tweaking the rubber mounts similar to what you have. I had nice clearance at the firewall to get to the bellhousing bolts, but the fan almost touched the radiator.

 

But I'm hoping datzenmike or Matt or someone will clarify all this, assuming any of what I'm remembering is right. Morning coffee not getting to my brain very well.

 

I have a Z20e in my shed full of parts/junk from an '81 200SX, if there are any measurements or pics you need. I looked and it has the steel mounts on both sides of the block, but no rubber mounts. I don't know if I have the rubber mounts; may have left them in the SX when I pulled the engine. I have a fantasy of sticking this engine in a Datsun someday, so I'm very interested in following your progress here.

 

Len

[brodster]

From your first post - "...I rotated the stock crossmember and spaced it down with thick washers." There is something about crossmembers I just can't quite remember, but maybe you need to have the crossmember from an automatic car for turning it 180 degrees to work. I'm not sure rotating a manual tranny crossmember gives you the correct position for the dogleg rubber mount. The mount on a dogleg is in a slightly different position than the 510 4-speed location, by about 5/8" or 3/4", something like that. I think the mounting point is that much closer to the front of the tranny, but maybe farther toward the rear. This may be some of the reason your motor mounts look to be shoved forward. When I swapped the L20b and dogleg into my 510, I made spacers from 1" thick rectangular tubing following the "Dime Quarterly" article. When I did the install, I tried various combinations of the spacers and both auto and manual Xmembers. I know at one point, I had the engine pushed forward tweaking the rubber mounts similar to what you have. I had nice clearance at the firewall to get to the bellhousing bolts, but the fan almost touched the radiator.

 

But I'm hoping datzenmike or Matt or someone will clarify all this, assuming any of what I'm remembering is right. Morning coffee not getting to my brain very well.

 

I have a Z20e in my shed full of parts/junk from an '81 200SX, if there are any measurements or pics you need. I looked and it has the steel mounts on both sides of the block, but no rubber mounts. I don't know if I have the rubber mounts; may have left them in the SX when I pulled the engine. I have a fantasy of sticking this engine in a Datsun someday, so I'm very interested in following your progress here.

 

Len

 

Thanks for the advice and if you want to follow the build, check out my build thread:http://community.ratsun.net/topic/37515-1972-datsun-510-revival/

 

Unfortunately I haven't updated it in ages, but within a week or so I start posting pictures from along the way. Once I get this problem resolved, I should post up that info over there for continuity.

 

Unfortunately I won't be able to get much work done on the 510 in the next month, since we are moving. So I guess follow the topic so when I start posting again it will let you know.

 

I will however try to do one thing before moving: Lift the motor up a hair and put in a different mount. After fabbing a mount for the driver side, which appears way to low now, I came across a Nissan 810 mount in a junk yard. The mount should move the engine up and over about 1/4" and provides very similar angles to the one I fabbed. Hopefully that will get the oilpan cleared and re-align the trannyu tailshaft a bit so I can move the car during this whole moving process.

[LenRobertson]

Thanks for the link to your build thread. I'd forgotten about the oil pan problem sticking a Z20 into a 510. I'm probably oversimplifying, but it seems about as involved to do a Z20 as to put in a KA24. But I need to re-read some KA24 threads to see if that is true.

 

If your trans Xmember isn't quite right and helps push the engine & trans forward (and I'm still not sure I'm correct in thinking that may be part of the tweaked rubber motor mount problem), remember that will move your fan closer to the radiator. May or may not be a problem, depending on what fan and radiator you run. I just measured my fan/radiator clearance. L20b with L20b plastic fan in '72 510 with stock L16 radiator. The fan blades only clear the top radiator tank by 5/8"; enough, but wouldn't want it any closer. I'll probably have to go to a better radiator, and may need an electric fan if the new radiator is closer to the L20b fan blades.

 

Also, if the trans mount is putting forward pressure on the motor mounts and the mount on one side "gives" more than the other side, it seems the trans output shaft won't be parallel to the center line of the car. May or may not be a problem, I don't know. I wonder if you should take the two tranny to rubber mount bolts out while sorting the motor mounts, then figure out the trans Xmember the last thing. Although It sounds like you may need to modify your motor mounts or slot them or something to get your pan in the correct position, and the tranny mount may end up being in the correct location.

 

I looked at a 510 a few years ago with a Z20e. It had welded up motor mounts and at the time I thought he went to needless work when he could have used some combination of standard Nissan mounts. But now I'm not so sure. He may have done what worked. I didn't look at his oil pan. Now I wish I had.

 

Len

[brodster]

Thanks for the link to your build thread. I'd forgotten about the oil pan problem sticking a Z20 into a 510. I'm probably oversimplifying, but it seems about as involved to do a Z20 as to put in a KA24. But I need to re-read some KA24 threads to see if that is true.

 

If your trans Xmember isn't quite right and helps push the engine & trans forward (and I'm still not sure I'm correct in thinking that may be part of the tweaked rubber motor mount problem), remember that will move your fan closer to the radiator. May or may not be a problem, depending on what fan and radiator you run. I just measured my fan/radiator clearance. L20b with L20b plastic fan in '72 510 with stock L16 radiator. The fan blades only clear the top radiator tank by 5/8"; enough, but wouldn't want it any closer. I'll probably have to go to a better radiator, and may need an electric fan if the new radiator is closer to the L20b fan blades.

 

Also, if the trans mount is putting forward pressure on the motor mounts and the mount on one side "gives" more than the other side, it seems the trans output shaft won't be parallel to the center line of the car. May or may not be a problem, I don't know. I wonder if you should take the two tranny to rubber mount bolts out while sorting the motor mounts, then figure out the trans Xmember the last thing. Although It sounds like you may need to modify your motor mounts or slot them or something to get your pan in the correct position, and the tranny mount may end up being in the correct location.

 

I looked at a 510 a few years ago with a Z20e. It had welded up motor mounts and at the time I thought he went to needless work when he could have used some combination of standard Nissan mounts. But now I'm not so sure. He may have done what worked. I didn't look at his oil pan. Now I wish I had.

 

Len

 

I have been considering the whole swap and how hard it would compared to a KA. Although I have not done a KA, a KA still seems more involved because you have the whole transmission/driveshaft issues to sort out. Plus with a Z engine, you can pick pieces off L-series motors to finish the swap. Just having the similarity between the L and Z helps. BUT given that to do the swap correctly you need to fab motor mounts and possibly an oilpan (if you don't flip the front crossmember), my guess is that this swap is somewhere between putting in a L20B and dogleg and doing a full KA swap. Personally, if you don't get the motor for really cheap or in good condition (which is getting harder these days) it really isn't worth it. The power potential just isn't there compared to other swaps. If you have some compelling reason to stick a Z in there, go for it. I got my motor in great shape for a cheap price with all the necessary odds and ends to make the swap happen.

 

As far as the engine position, I am sorting that out right now. I opted to remove the plastic fan and go to electric fans. So clearance here isn't really an issue.

 

The tweaked engine mount on the driver side isn't accurately showing the motor position entirely. When I first swapped the engine, I tried the stock 200sx engine mounts. Although they did work, they placed the motor WAY too high in the engine bay. Hood wouldn't come close to shutting. Personally I think cutting a hole in the hood to fix the problem is a poor solution. I also tried a variety of engine mounts from the junkyark in hopes of finding the magic pair. This is where the problem exists: The closest fitting pair comprises a L28 passenger mount from an 810 and the stock passenger side mount from the 510. The stock passenger mount gets swapped to the driver side in the process. ( Coincidentally, I uncovered an old bluebirds mailing list post claiming a similar process.) Instead of the 810 mount, mentioned above, I modified a Z22 mount, which is almost the same by dumb luck. Anyways, the stock mounts are not symmetrical, so when you flip then they seem to shift the engine fore/aft, depending on the offset. I measured the motor for twist, and it seems to be almost parallel.

 

Inspecting the driveline position the other night, it seems that the transmission is shifted over to the passenger side. So it seems that lifting the passenger side of the motor will correct the driveline position and the oilpan problem.

 

However, I am going to ditch the stock 510 mount on the driver side too. That twist is unacceptable and it is forcing the motor forward. I am convinced now, after months of scavenging, there is no magic combination for the Z swap. Plus, when I had my friend help me modify the Z22 mount, I realized it is pretty easy to fab a mount.

[Jester]

If your going from the stock L series / 4spd to a Z series / 5spd, you need a different trans mount.

As for the pan, I wouldn't use the stock L series pan on there unless you go with a L series trans.

 

Put a jack under the trans and unbolt the X member. I bet it will move by itself.