Random thoughts on the new Subi/Scion venture BRZ/FRS

[HRH]

So as much as I dislike the platform sharing and particularly Toyota, I was browsing through new vehicles on the Internet today and came up with some interesting thoughts. Anybody care to pontificate with me? Oh good!

 

First, almost all of Subaru's 2013 line up is FUGLY, with a capital F. The lights are retarded, the proportions don't look right. They're just plain horrid. HOWEVER, the BRZ actually looks decent. It doesn't have a gigantic front overhang, the lines are nice. And it's RWD with 200 hp. Claimed curb weight of 2690, so figure 2750-2800 actual weight. Still a very respectable power to weight ratio.

 

The Scion's FRS looks uglier in the front grill by far, and funny enough shares the exact same Subaru motor. I'm wondering if they even bothered to rebadge it with Subaru logos or if they just covered it up with plastic.

 

Anyway, as I was thinking about this and how Toyota owns stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, (Nissan is in there too) I was thinking that like many Subis, I'll bet the 6 speed transmission is probably a Nissan unit, I would almost think the one out of the 370Z minus the rev-match possibly. Maybe a front case difference for the boxer engine, but probably still close to the same unit. This is merely speculation. The rear diff being limited slip also is of interest as that might be a Nissan piece also. Which means when wannabe drifters crash these things in ten years, we may have some nice inexpensive transmission and diff options for 510s....maybe? :)

[thisismatt]

There have been various articles/blurbs about them in Road & Track. I refer you to those :P The same problems we have with other new cars follow these as well. First off, they become a dime a dozen and any retard has one, whereas Ferraris, Lambos, etc other sweet cars are $$$ and only rich retards have them, and Datsuns are old and rare-ish and there's a closer knit community of cool datsun folk that have these fun RWD cars. For those of us in CA and other smog happy states, new cars aren't as much fun to do performance mods to unless the parts get carb certified and then they're $$$, so it kind of screws with the whole "affordable RWD performance platform" aspect.

[NiiChan GT-R]

I really want to ruminate on the BRX/FR-S, but doing so would force me to think about the present Japanese affordable sports car industry (all whopping three choices still available), which only depresses me.

 

I look more forward to the competition that the FR-S will hopefully engender, than I do to the car individually. Hopefully other manufacturers do jump on the bandwagon...

 

So let's pour one out for those who died in the last decade and a half or so needlessly, without replacement (RX7, RX8, DSM, 3000GT, MR2, Supra, Celica, SVX, Integra, S2000, turbo Z/Skylines, Silvia), and toast to the success, or at least existence, of the remaining affordable ones (FR-S, 370z, Miata).

 

It's nice that Toyota is throwing enthusiasts a bone, but I sort of miss having choices, so I'll stick with stuff from the 70s - 90s. I'm glad I grew up in an era when high tech Japanese coupes were what elementary school kids thought were cool, and not Jingoistic Detroit throwbacks or luxury sedans with token RWD.

[HRH]

Ah yes, Mr. Majestic has some wise words! :D The RX8 is still available through Mazda, though it was a poor replacement for the RX7. Makes sense though, they would have had to compete with the Miata which would have probably been a poor decision were they to bring back the RX.

 

I long for the day when they get rid of airbags, abs, and vdc. Sure there will be a period of time where more people wreck because they actually have to drive their car, but I doubt it would be much more than the number of current morons who wreck their vehicles for whatever reason.

 

I may go test drive a BRZ when they come out here in a bit. I'm rather intrigued by a RWD Subi. I like their motors and their cars are quite good, just not what I'm after in the looks department. Mom and dad don't care, they have a 2012 outback and a 2001. They work great for what they were designed to do, no question.

 

The one article I read on the BRZ mentioned stiff ride and lots of engine noise, which gives me great hope. I really tire of vehicles that are being made like a rubber room in an insane asylum. No sound at all, can't even feel much, everything is deadened to insulate the driver. Probably why more people fall asleep while driving these days.

[HRH]

Read a Road and Track article hosted from Subaru's website. Patrick Hong did the write up a while back. It's interesting that while Toyota planned the vehicle, the engineering is Subaru. It's built at a Subaru plant with a Subaru engine, but the direct injection technology is borrowed from Toyota. Interesting to note also that the 2.0 in it should make around 200 hp naturally aspirated. The thing is just begging for a turbo, and I'll bet any number of EJ engines would swap in. STI BRZ? Now that would be fun!

[Sealik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ax96iVmTCI

 

Whooops......it's a deep thought..... not random :D

[Laecaon]

I am excited for it! I thought there were 3 versions though, the Toyota FR86 too... or did that get dropped?

 

It looks appealing for the price.

 

Supposedly it handles super well, and that is running the same tires the prius comes with, making the point that maybe they actually engineered the suspension well. Here a near 50/50 weight balance, which usually means good things...

 

I want Subi to make a Sti version, sure to get a nice turbo on it.

 

I too can only hope that this will spawn the other manufacturers to make cheaper RWD cars. I dont think Honda ever will do it, Nissan could...

[Son_of_a_Datsun_Guy]

I think that they did announce an STI version, but it lacks a turbo. This worries me about whether or not the new line of motor even likes boost at all. I suspect because they have low power by drifting standards (c'mon 200's not a lot) that people will be swapping out the new motor for current WRX STI opposing flat four format just to get boost into the car... At least until they figure out how to make the new turbo-charged

[Laecaon]

Mentions of more power to come in it, though no mention of Turbo yet... and the chassis is designed for a convertible version, and to be made into a longer wheel base...

 

And I figured out the Toyota FT86 is the JDM version, we get the Scion.

[Guest 510kamikazifreak]

I like my Datsuns :w00t: :thumbup:

New shit meh...

[littlejason]

I daily drive the car this was named after...

I like it, but I just don't buy new cars! Sorry!

[Greiggy]

i was fortunate to drive one of the new '86's' in japan when i was over there just on a month ago... put simply i like them - they handle well, look ok for a front engine rear drive layout in a decent price range, and have adequate power in for their weight.

 

when we were talking to the toyota people at the place where the car was - they said the whoel car is a subaru base just with toyotas direct injection system. one of the sales people did say it was a new generation boxer motor though.

 

suprisingly it didnt have the subaru boxer 'burble though' it just drove like a well tuned N/A 4 cylinder. when they land in aus I am pretty set on getting one.

 

 

the dark blue pics and the drive was at toyota megaweb in odaiba,tokyo and the black high spec one was in a toyota deealership in shibuya, tokyo

[bonvo]

one of the few modern cars i like

[hellamikey]

 

Anyway, as I was thinking about this and how Toyota owns stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, (Nissan is in there too)

 

I had a friend that had a 2.5rs with nissan branded seatbelts lol

 

Also, Nissan/Subi went in on some casting work together in the 70s-80s some of the L engine heads have Fuji casting marks

[Elkie]

This had me excited, till it was curbed cause economic downturn. 2L 220 bhp. The new "240sx", although it wouldn't be under that name or silvia.

[ofg]

Im not a fan of the boxer engine. Too many heads, cam belt complications, cam shafts, oil leaks...Used to ride a goldwing gl1000,, with 4 cyl boxer. I would let it idle in the morning to warm up,, resting on the side stand. Funny thing,, one side of the engine wore out faster than the other side. Oil starvation? It took years,, but sure enough,, one side started to smoke more than the other.

 

The new toy subomination would have been better with an inline 4. Every thing else about it looks and seems cool. Its why I drive an awd dsm instead of a wrx. That freaking boxer engine just waiting to blow one of its head gaskets or shred its belt(s?).

 

I bet the toybarubomination will have a short production run and become an instant classic!

[HRH]

This had me excited, till it was curbed cause economic downturn. 2L 220 bhp. The new "240sx", although it wouldn't be under that name or silvia.

 

Is it just me, or does this look like the exact same vehicle? I wonder if Nissan was thinking about it first and after they balked, Toyota jumped on it? The fender arch and the vents behind it look VERY similar to the BRZ/Scion.

[KyushaKai]

From what I've been reading... the FT-86/FRS/BRZ is of an evolution of Subaru's current 4 cyl boxer offering, with handling and "feeling" placed above outright power. It's supposed to be a real driver's car instead of a bench racing, numbers car. Also, what it lacks in hp (70+!) compared to its competition (v6 Mustang, Genesis, and to some extent 370z), it makes up in suspension tuning and low weight/small size (more than 400lbs and a little larger than a Miata). The rumored STi version of the BRZ is supposed to have a 250hp high strung N/A boxer motor instead of the standard turbo/awd.

 

In my dreams, the resurrection of the Datsun nameplate would mean a low weight, handsome car, with good suspension, and the Juke's 1.6L direct injected turbo engine to compete with it.

[ofg]

In my mind, the reinvention of datsun would be a 91 sentra ser in a rwd format. Just a puny 140 hp 2.0 in a small, lightweight notchback style,, with full independent suspension,, and rwd.

 

But as for the brzfrs,,, Im glad its not a nissan, or an isuzu,, or a mitsubishi...

[Elkie]

I would expect most companies might use a third party to design new cars, and possibly split the cost with another manufacturer. Like Scion and Subaru, then use slight body modifications so it doesn't look exactly the same. Maybe the same company did the designs. The car I mentioned shared the 370z platform just a smaller engine for the sub $30K sports car market. If you compare the fender lines from a 370z, they are very similar.

[I'm BLUE]

Bump-hizzy

[Kisor]

Im not a fan of the boxer engine. Too many heads, cam belt complications, cam shafts, oil leaks...Used to ride a goldwing gl1000,, with 4 cyl boxer. I would let it idle in the morning to warm up,, resting on the side stand. Funny thing,, one side of the engine wore out faster than the other side. Oil starvation? It took years,, but sure enough,, one side started to smoke more than the other.

 

The new toy subomination would have been better with an inline 4. Every thing else about it looks and seems cool. Its why I drive an awd dsm instead of a wrx. That freaking boxer engine just waiting to blow one of its head gaskets or shred its belt(s?).

 

I bet the toybarubomination will have a short production run and become an instant classic!

 

I don't get peoples hate for boxer engines. They have many advantages over inline and V configurations, and unfamiliarity with a design leads to one sounding unintelligent. To say "Too many heads, cam belt complications, cam shafts, oil leaks" is just silly. V engines have 2 heads, just as complex belt routing and just as many areas to leak oil as a flat engine.

 

They are inherently balanced and don't suffer from second order harmonics like inline 4's do.

http://en.wikipedia...._and_smoothness

Therefore they don't need balance shafts that ad weight and rotating mass.

 

They allow the weight to mounted lower in the chassis compared to inline engines. Although they are more suited to RWD configurations.

The reason they aren't used more is packaging and production costs.

 

The only reason Subaru's have head gasket issues is the gaskets themselves. The coating that is on the gasket would deteriorate over time at the bottom of the cylinder. Fuel and oil would create an acidic environment and eat away at the rubberized sealing layer. The metal gasket is never compromised in any that I have worked on. And that's a lot of them.

 

 

The only belt issues I have ever encountered are from lack of maintenance or improper installation. Idk what you mean by belt shredding?

 

Plus the new FA20 and FB25 are chain driven valvetrain.

 

 

 

 

And new rod design:

 

 

And for you to have these opinions about head gaskets and belt issues and drive a DSM are just funny IMO....

 

 

Are they the engine of choice for FWD cars? No, packaging being the big hurdle there.

 

Are they better than an inline 4? Yes, in about every way but production costs, look at the small aircraft market since its inception. You can't make a 360 cu in inline 4, it would destroy its self. I feel that a design that is trusted in aircraft is one that has been researched and tested to be the best it can be.

 

 

 

In my mind, the reinvention of datsun would be a 91 sentra ser in a rwd format. Just a puny 140 hp 2.0 in a small, lightweight notchback style,, with full independent suspension,, and rwd.

 

But as for the brzfrs,,, Im glad its not a nissan, or an isuzu,, or a mitsubishi...

 

 

I think Nissan already did that around the same era....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I work at Toyota, the Subaru dealer is next door. They have a BRZ there now and I like the look. We will be getting the FRS soon and when I drive one I'll post up impressions. The returning trend of pocket RWD imports is exciting. The new Genesis is a big contender, 348hp V6 275hp 2.0 4. Nissan needs to revisit their Silvia platform plans if the economy keeps up.

 

These cars died because no one had money to buy "fun" stuff 10 years ago. They wanted a "get to work car".

 

 

My $0.02

[ofg]

The engine is and always has been the weakest link in a subaru car. Some of them just wear out quickly and keep running and rattling and leaking for years with no issues. Others just grenade early and get it over with. Depends on the performance level. High output subarus never last very long unless they are babied.

 

The main reason a subaru engine is used in aircraft is packaging. It fits inside the cowel. Same reason vw engines were used for aircraft. Matter of fact, thats the main reason for the boxer engine in the first place, packaging. it fits better for low and wide applications It was never designed as a superior replacement for inline engines. It is a classic case of form driving function. Backwards engineering.

 

The 240sx was not comparable to a 2 liter sentra ser in any way or form. It was plagued with a frumpy engine and low power to weight ratio. it was a disappointment in the USA market. The 91 SER was a sensation, drawing comparisons to datsun 510 and early bmw cars. The 240sx was embarrassingly related to the original 240z in numbers only. 240. For those of us that love rwd cars, the 91 ser was the best fwd car ever. It was fast, handled better than anything in its size or price range. It was a cheap and lightweight throwback to the good old days, eagerly forgiven for being fwd. The ser humbled more expensive cars on the track, and was a true giant killer on the street. The 240sx was,,,praised for its styling and handling, and not in any way deserved of any comparison to Datsuns of past.

 

And now kicking a DSM? I have had 3 of those as well. Never a head gasket or timing issue. Any problems with those usually arises from some kid turning up the boost and hacking in some mod to make it faster. Its also a 100+ hp per liter engine from the factory, sinse 1990. In 1990 subaru would not risk their reputation on such performance from their boxer. It would not last long enough to clear any kind of warente. Its taken them a long time to catch up. First gen wrx and sti still arent as reliable as a dsm. perhaps the current generation is better than a 20 year old inline design?

 

The whole point of a 4 cylinder engine in the first place is economy. Why then make one with 4 cam shafts and 2 head gaskets?! Because its different, and to maintain brand loyalty, not because its better.

 

Its easy to quote Wikipedia, and employer propaganda and post pictures of the newest design. You cant erase history though. The boxer design has not proven itself to be better than an inline design.

[Kisor]

The engine is and always has been the weakest link in a subaru car. Some of them just wear out quickly and keep running and rattling and leaking for years with no issues. Others just grenade early and get it over with. Depends on the performance level. High output subarus never last very long unless they are babied.

 

The main reason a subaru engine is used in aircraft is packaging. It fits inside the cowel. Same reason vw engines were used for aircraft. Matter of fact, thats the main reason for the boxer engine in the first place, packaging. it fits better for low and wide applications It was never designed as a superior replacement for inline engines. It is a classic case of form driving function. Backwards engineering.

 

The 240sx was not comparable to a 2 liter sentra ser in any way or form. It was plagued with a frumpy engine and low power to weight ratio. it was a disappointment in the USA market. The 91 SER was a sensation, drawing comparisons to datsun 510 and early bmw cars. The 240sx was embarrassingly related to the original 240z in numbers only. 240. For those of us that love rwd cars, the 91 ser was the best fwd car ever. It was fast, handled better than anything in its size or price range. It was a cheap and lightweight throwback to the good old days, eagerly forgiven for being fwd. The ser humbled more expensive cars on the track, and was a true giant killer on the street. The 240sx was,,,praised for its styling and handling, and not in any way deserved of any comparison to Datsuns of past.

 

And now kicking a DSM? I have had 3 of those as well. Never a head gasket or timing issue. Any problems with those usually arises from some kid turning up the boost and hacking in some mod to make it faster. Its also a 100+ hp per liter engine from the factory, sinse 1990. In 1990 subaru would not risk their reputation on such performance from their boxer. It would not last long enough to clear any kind of warente. Its taken them a long time to catch up. First gen wrx and sti still arent as reliable as a dsm. perhaps the current generation is better than a 20 year old inline design?

 

The whole point of a 4 cylinder engine in the first place is economy. Why then make one with 4 cam shafts and 2 head gaskets?! Because its different, and to maintain brand loyalty, not because its better.

 

Its easy to quote Wikipedia, and employer propaganda and post pictures of the newest design. You cant erase history though. The boxer design has not proven itself to be better than an inline design.

 

 

 

You need to check the crack you're smoking, seriously....

 

How many 300,000+ mile DSM's do you see driving around? Most of them have crank walked themselves into the scrap yard limping there on their broken center diffs and choking from their broken magic mirror air flow meters . I see a lot of big mile Suby's still on the road. I have no qualms about buying a 200K mile Outback for $800, replacing the head gaskets, baffle plate, and related seals and putting it back on the market for $4k. I do it many times a year. No comebacks, No engine problems, just people happy with a car that will go another 100k with just routine maintenance.

 

I wasn't talking about using Subaru engines in airplanes, I was referring to the fact that you can not make a large displacement 4 cylinder engine due to the second order harmonics. It's a flawed design. Why does your 4G63 have a balance shaft? Because it can not be completely balanced otherwise, talk about backwards engineering. People remove them and get away with it because its only 2.0 liters.

 

I want you to quietly and slowly recite aloud the second quote I made about a whatever horsepower small, lightweight notchback style,, with full independent suspension,, and rwd. It's a Silvia, 240SX, 180SX, whatever you want to call it. And the US market for that chassis is minute compared to its worldwide production. We just got the cheap truck motor that they could throw in there.. Other markets got a nicely packaged powerhouse of a car that did its fair share of stomping in its category.

 

Is there a reason you think an EJ25 is not an economical engine? I don't think the production costs of that engine are any more than any other inline 4 of the same displacement/power. And, the reason Subaru uses that system is it's better suited to an AWD drivetrain. No transfer case to build separately, Better packaging IMO. And Decent gas mileage for an AWD car.

 

 

I quoted Wiki because it was easier than sitting here typing it all out. The fact I work for Toyota and we have a Subaru dealer in our group has nothing to do with my likes of engine design or the fact a boxer engine is a better design than an inline 4. Maybe if you did a little more research and were less narrow minded you might see the facts as they are layed out.