Noob joining your ranks! Just picked up my first Datsun

[Odinie]

I JB welded a Nickle on there. But that might be 4 cent too mjuch for ya!!!!!

 

:D

[Odinie]

Hey folks, it's been a while, but I think I finally tracked down an engine. It's not an L20B, but the deal seems too good to pass up. It's a Z22 (he said it was an L22, but I think he meant Z because he didn't know what head was on it) and has a 5 speed as well. It's coming from a "tired 720" which he's dumping on me for $600 for everything. He said he'd only do the deal if I took the truck too, which I'm a little hesitant about. I really just don't want to deal with it, but I guess I don't have a job now, and I can always part it out cheap or sell as a shell to somebody else. Hell, I can probably even take it to the yard. I almost feel bad, but unless somebody else has a better idea, that seems to be the plan.

 

The plan is to rebuild the motor as an L22 with a U67 head with some work done on it that I'm trying to get my paws on. Gonna go over the entire engine, clean it up, rebuild it with a mild cam, and swap into the 521 for something with a little extra power that's ready to go the distance. The 5 speed should be nice for freeway cruising too.

 

I guess my question is. Will I be getting in over my head with this build? It seems straightforward, but I'm not sure if there are any unforeseen things that I might be missing before I pull the trigger tomorrow.

 

 

 

[wayno]

I guess how easy it will be depends on if it has a L head on it already, if it does, possibly all the hard part has been done. Have you personaly seen the engine? What side was the intake manifold on? If it was a Z22 block with the Z head(intake on the pass. side), then the tranny doesn't do you a lot of good unless you leave it a Z block, as it will be tilted badly if used with an L block unless the front case is changed. Everything depends on what the head actually is. I have put together a LZ23 recently, if it is a complete Z22 block, with a Z head, you will need quite a few parts from the L20b block, you need the timing chain cover, timing chain, oil dipstick, all the hardware for mounting the engine, the head, distributor, intake, and maybe the exhaust manifold, and a few from the L16 block, 521 oilpan, oil pickup tube, and maybe use the exhaust manifold. Basicly what you would do is have a L20b and Z block side by side, remove everything from the L20b, and put it on the Z22 block, except for the oilpan and oil pickup tube, and maybe the exhaust mani which come from the L16. There is also the water cooling passages in the block that need drilled, although I have heard some people didn't drill them, don't know the long term effects of that, and of course the dipstick hole needs drilled and put on the pass. side, and the Z dipstick hole needs plugged.

[Odinie]

I guess how easy it will be depends on if it has a L head on it already, if it does, possibly all the hard part has been done. Have you personaly seen the engine? What side was the intake manifold on? If it was a Z22 block with the Z head(intake on the pass. side), then the tranny doesn't do you a lot of good unless you leave it a Z block, as it will be tilted badly if used with an L block unless the front case is changed. Everything depends on what the head actually is. I have put together a LZ23 recently, if it is a complete Z22 block, with a Z head, you will need quite a few parts from the L20b block, you need the timing chain cover, timing chain, oil dipstick, all the hardware for mounting the engine, the head, distributor, intake, and maybe the exhaust manifold, and a few from the L16 block, 521 oilpan, oil pickup tube, and maybe use the exhaust manifold. Basicly what you would do is have a L20b and Z block side by side, remove everything from the L20b, and put it on the Z22 block, except for the oilpan and oil pickup tube, and maybe the exhaust mani which come from the L16. There is also the water cooling passages in the block that need drilled, although I have heard some people didn't drill them, don't know the long term effects of that, and of course the dipstick hole needs drilled and put on the pass. side, and the Z dipstick hole needs plugged.

 

Oh. Wow. That's a lot more work than I was expecting. I was thinking a simple swap to a L20B head and the tranny would mate right up. I had no idea there would be that much work involved. Oy vey, I guess I'll keep looking for an L20B with a proper matching 5 speed. I don't need the extra .2L that bad.

 

I haven't seen the engine, but I think it's stock, so my guess is it has the Z head. I'll double check with him tomorrow just to make sure. Thanks for letting me know. This is exactly the kind of pain in the ass I hoped to avoid for myself.

[wayno]

Maybe it will have the L head on it.

[Odinie]

It didn't...the search continues.

[Odinie]

A guy with a 5 speed from an L series motor just called me today looking to sell. He was headed this direction from out of town so he's bringing in the transmission. The only problem is, he doesn't know what it came out of. He was planning on putting it into his 521, but never got around to it. He wants $200. I've been frantically looking for information on how to identify the particular transmission, but the only helpful thread I could find had broken links on the images. :(

 

Does anybody have any advice for identification? He lives about three hours away so I'm going to have to decide whether I want it while he's here. I may take a chance on it if it measures the same length as the 4 speed trans on my 521. I know the 5 speeds came in varying lengths so the last thing I want is one that's not a direct replacement. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Odinie]

Ok, I found this thread: http://community.ratsun.net/topic/29325-5-speed-for-l16/

 

It looks like I'll have to do some mods because I have a short trans in my 521 and all the 5 speeds are long. Looks like there weren't any short 5 speeds made. I guess that means I'll be doing a little cutting no matter what so that question is solved.

[Z chopper]

did you happen to read the whole thread? there was only 1 long 5spd dogleg at the bottom of the thread you linnked to

[wayno]

Ok, I found this thread: http://community.rat...-speed-for-l16/

 

It looks like I'll have to do some mods because I have a short trans in my 521 and all the 5 speeds are long. Looks like there weren't any short 5 speeds made. I guess that means I'll be doing a little cutting no matter what so that question is solved.

 

There is a shortshaft 5 speed that will bolt to your block, it is called a dogleg 5 speed, it is the same length as your 4 speed, I am not a big fan of these trannys, as I have wasted a few of them, they are made for a 1977-79 datsun 200SX car. The transmission mount and driveline slip yoke will need some modifacations, but it is the closest your going to get to a bolt in, datzenmike has all the photos of how to do the mods, I seen something about it yesterday even. You can also make your own 5 seed, but that is a lot more complicated.

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/28473-how-to-put-together-a-shortshaft-5-speed-for-a-l20b/page__view__findpost__p__422824__hl__wayno__fromsearch__1

[Odinie]

Ok, I see the short dogleg 5 speed now. I'll measure and confirm it's not that. I'd rather shorten the driveshaft and cut a new hole than have something that's too weak which I'll have to do again.

 

Ok, so it appears that I'm looking for the 71B stamp or the 71C stamp as long as it has the L-Series bell housing.

[wayno]

Ok, I see the short dogleg 5 speed now. I'll measure and confirm it's not that. I'd rather shorten the driveshaft and cut a new hole than have something that's too weak which I'll have to do again.

 

Ok, so it appears that I'm looking for the 71B stamp or the 71C stamp as long as it has the L-Series bell housing.

 

 

The question here is what are you going to use the truck for? I use my truck for work, heavy work.

Because I use my truck like this, I was going threw a dogleg every year and a half, so it is not a good transmission for me.

If you are not going to tow, or haul heavy loads often, well you probably can use a dogleg without issues, if you read that link I posted about how to put a heavy duty truck shortshaft 5 spd. together, you will know that you have to find specific trannys to do it, and that can get spendy, unless you can find both in the same wrecking yard and put it together on site and walk out with one transmission. If you use your truck like it is a car, a dogleg will more than likely work for you. Fact is they(dogleg) are an expensive transmission, and getting rarer everyday.

[Odinie]

That link you posted looks expensive and difficult and I'm thinking it'll be much easier, cheaper, and durable to just put in a longer tranny and get the driveshaft shaft shortened. It's nice to know that the short 5 speed swap can be done, but it does seem like tons of work and extra expense.

[wayno]

Longshaft 5 speeds are a lot more common found in 620s and 720s, but I have not tried to install one in a 521 frame, but there are a few guys with them, so it is deffinately possible, but to this day I wonder if the tranny can be pulled and installed without moving the engine.

[Odinie]

Ahh, I see. I'm beginning to realize that getting a L20B with a 5 speed in my 521 is going to be more work than I bargained for. I'll either have to do a bunch of modification and fabbing (which are beyond my mechanical abilities), or search to the ends of the earth and pay out the ass for uncommon parts to do it with.

 

The crappy thing is I wound up buying the 5 speed earlier today. I should have done more research, but the guy who sold it to me was planning on doing the same thing with this trans for his 521 and said it should be fine. Trans is a long shaft. I may have paid too much at $170 too. Hopefully I can recoup some of that on craigslist or something.

 

I could just rebuild the L16 and stock 4 speed, which are both pretty tired, but not yet unreliable. Engine leaks oil like crazy though. I just wanted a bit more power and to be able to drive on the freeway.

[wayno]

L20b and a 5 speed is a great upgrade, don't let me scare you out of something like the upgrade you are planning, if I had the choice between an L16/4 speed, verses a L20b with a long shaft 5 speed, there is no contest, the L20b/5 spd. is going to be my pick everytime, Jon521 just did the same thing your talking about, and he thinks it's great as far as I can tell. What did he say the 5 speed was out of? The last time I had an L16 was back in the mid 90s, put an L20b/dogleg 5 spd. in, and never looked back, it was like a differant vehicle, didn't have to drop a gear when I came to a hill, you get the biggest grin on your face when that happens, you even get a bigger grin when you have to move over to pass someone on that hill, that everybody used to pass you on, do your conversion, you will never regret it.

[Odinie]

The thing is, he didn't know exactly what the trans came out of. Here are some images attached, but I still haven't verified it's actually a 5 speed myself. He was emphatic that it was and that he confirmed this. There's no shifter arm for me to find out on my own so I had to take him at his word.

 

Perhaps I'm a bit overwhelmed right now. Sometimes I buy things and have regrets later, but I'll do more research before I decide. The thing I don't want to have happen is to get in over my head with the project and then have a sitting, half-finished truck that never gets used. I found Jon521's thread which sheds light on a few issues like mounting the trans which is helpful.

http://community.rat...-l20b-5-speeed/

 

Another thing of note is that when I pulled the drain plug I found the following bits of metal attached. I think I'll open it up tomorrow and see if I can't find out what's wrong. :/

 

 

Here are the pics:

 

 

 

 

 

[Z chopper]

>_< ouch

[wayno]

It looks like it might be out of a 620, deffinately pre 1980, we need datzenmike to tell us what it is, he would know.

Unfortunately, looks like it needs a bearing at the very least from the bits you found on the magnet, hope there isn't anymore damage.

[Odinie]

>_< ouch

 

Yep...

[Odinie]

Unfortunately, looks like it needs a bearing at the very least from the bits you found on the magnet, hope there isn't anymore damage.

 

Yeah, it doesn't bode well. We'll find out tomorrow. This is the part of learning that costs extra money because you were too stupid or too impatient to figure out something the first time. I'm sure there will be more of it to come. To pull it apart, should I follow the same basic steps you took in your thread here? http://community.ratsun.net/topic/28473-how-to-put-together-a-shortshaft-5-speed-for-a-l20b/

 

I'll try to find some more information before I dig in so I don't accidentally screw something up when I pull it apart.

 

 

[Z chopper]

find as much information as you can

[wayno]

Yeah, it doesn't bode well. We'll find out tomorrow. This is the part of learning that costs extra money because you were too stupid or too impatient to figure out something the first time. I'm sure there will be more of it to come. To pull it apart, should I follow the same basic steps you took in your thread here? http://community.rat...eed-for-a-l20b/

 

I'll try to find some more information before I dig in so I don't accidentally screw something up when I pull it apart.

 

 

 

 

I just read the thread again, I had no idea that it had so many responces, yes just follow the steps for pulling it apart, I don't pull the tailshaft cover off, but you might have to, that will take a couple more steps that I am unfamilair with, hopefully it will be the cluster gear that messed up on it, and who ever was driving it when it started having an issue stopped driving it, that one long piece of metal came out of a bearing. What color was the fluid? When you pull it apart, take photos, you might know what the problem is when you get the front cover off, as that lower cluster gear bearing is visible, and hopefully the casing didn't get buggered up.

[Odinie]

Ok folks, I got in there today to assess the damage, and while I don't know much about trannys, it doesn't appear to be very bad. I checked all the teeth I could on the input shaft half on the trans and found that only one set of gears had any perceptible damage. Each of them have a score that runs along the entire radius of the gear. I found the part of the bearing that exploded leaving little bits everywhere. It's the ring the separates the balls in the bearing from each other.

 

Next up on the list is to figure out how to get the back half of the trans separated from the gears so I can attempt how to gain access to the bearing and continue to check for damage and more metal fragments. It seems to be catching on something when I try to separate it. I'll try to find some more information relating to removing that section. Pics below of the progress.

 

Input shaft plate removal:

 

 

Input shaft plate removal:

 

 

Here's an image showing where the bearing spacer (forgive my made up terminology) blew. The bearing is at the top of the image attached to the other half of the trans. You can see all the balls have fallen to the bottom of the bearing.

 

 

Inside view:

 

 

Pic for gears:

 

 

Inside view:

 

 

More metal shavings found:

 

 

Here's an image of the damaged gears:

 

[datzenmike]

The crappy thing is I wound up buying the 5 speed earlier today. I should have done more research, but the guy who sold it to me was planning on doing the same thing with this trans for his 521 and said it should be fine. Trans is a long shaft. I may have paid too much at $170 too. Hopefully I can recoup some of that on craigslist or something.

 

 

 

 

 

What I would suggest is taking it back, show him this and get your money back. This thing must be making noise no doubt about it. If the bearing were replaced those pieces would have been removed.

 

 

The bearing cage pieces are likely from the top (mainshaft) or bottom (countershaft) bearings in the adapter plate. (it 's the steel plate that is sanwiched between the front and rear case halves.

 

 

 

Here is one that's coming apart on the top (mainshaft) on the tailstock side of the adapter plate...

 

 

There are two other bearings in the tailstock that could be the cause. This looks like it can be saved with new bearings but try and take it back. $170 is ok for a good running used 5 speed, not this.

 

Looks like a 620/280z or first year zx 5 speed. If you place in 5th gear and turn the input shaft exactly 10 times and have someone count the output spline at the back and tell me how many times it turns as exact as possible I can narrow it down. (likely tell you what it isn't)

 

 

I believe it's a FS5C71B,

 

I'm sure this is a typo. The FS5C71B was a competition gearbox. This is an FS5W71B

 

 

.