datsundan Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 As of right now I have an s13 sr20det blacktop pretty much stock other than the parts necessary for the swap. My car has quite a few suspension mods and my buddy in his stock (other than lowering springs and a fresh alignment)ae86 corolla had no problem keeping up with me in the local canyon. and i have r comp tires on right now too. So I'm thinking of swapping out my sr20det swap for a 13bt since the engine sits sooo low and far back compared to the sr.does anyone think I should not do so? I'm trying to make the car have better overall balance. even stock in stock trim my sr can still be a handful trough corners Has anyone on here owned/ driven both an sr20det powered and 13bt powered 510 to give me some feedback on how the car handled/ drivability? Quote Link to comment
Laecaon Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What suspension do you have? Please dont say stock. Quote Link to comment
justin 620 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Almost sounds like a lot of work just to get a lil better balance... Just stuff some fat chicks in the trunk to even it out :P Quote Link to comment
jun Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 switch cars with your buddy for a canyon run...make sure it's the car and not the driver ;) Quote Link to comment
DISLEXICDIME Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Somthing must be wrong with your car or you can't drive. My l18 car would stomp my buddys 4age coupe . We need details of your suspension Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 If you are racing in a straight line the largest most powerful engine wins as a rule. If you are canyon carving with few straightaways and mostly ascending/descending curves and corners then the best handling car wins. Engine size or power have little to do with it other than maybe it's weight. All things equal, a lighter car will brake and corner better than a heavier car. A car with a lower center of gravity will handle corners better than a top heavy one. Suspension mods for the sake of mods does not always equal better. A well tuned suspension has all the components working in harmony. For example, too large a sway bar in front back will add oversteer (front turns and back swings out, think drifting) while too large in the back front will cause understeer (front wheels turn but front end ploughs straight ahead, a welded diff will also do this). Changing one component affects all. Same with too stiff springs, stiff or worn shocks/tires. Excessive rear camber from lowering. How much less does your friend's car weigh? Quote Link to comment
510kevin Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Almost sounds like a lot of work just to get a lil better balance... Just stuff some fat chicks in the trunk to even it out :P im all about that idea!!!!! i let em sit in the back seat :D Quote Link to comment
kneesamo Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 switch cars with your buddy for a canyon run...make sure it's the car and not the driver Agreed For example, too large a sway bar in front back will add oversteer (front turns and back swings out, think drifting) while too large in the back front will cause understeer (front wheels turn but front end ploughs straight ahead, a welded diff will also do this). I have experienced the opposite, except for the welded diff part. Soft front sway bar plus stiff rear sway bar equals more/easier weight transfer towards the front, making the rear lighter hence inducing oversteer. Thats what I felt at least. Here is what Wiki has to say The other function of anti-roll bars is to tune the handling balance of a car. Understeer or oversteer behavior can be tuned out by changing the proportion of the total roll stiffness that comes from the front and rear axles. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the front will increase the proportion of the total load transfer that the front axle reacts and decrease the proportion that the rear axle reacts. This will cause the outer front wheel to run at a comparatively higher slip angle, and the outer rear wheel to run at a comparatively lower slip angle, which is an understeer effect. Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the rear axle will have the opposite effect and decrease understeer. Quote Link to comment
datsundan Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 this might be easier for me to just list all of my mods FRONT SUSPENSION: (coilovers)280zx struts shortened with mr2 illumina shocks TEIN camber plates SWIFT 300 lb springs needle bearing top hat rca's ermish racing control arms mckinney motorsports front sway bar with new bushes/endlinks new ball joints 510 steering knuckles techno toy tuning tension rods design products steering box brace nismo strut tower brace 280zx brakes w/rotora rotors new tie rods(both ends) and my alignment is good REAR SUSPENSION: slotted crossmember new wheel bearings solid mounts for crossmember and mustache bar subaru 3.71 lsd poly rear control arm bushings AUTOPOWER rollbar suspension techniques lowering springs illumina camaro shocks 200sx brakes w/ rotora rotors OTHER MODS:. battery relocated to rear right of trunk evo 8 recaro seats no rear seat in my car 14x8 wheels with 195/60/14 tires s13 swap 3" exhaust hope this helps also no clue what my buddies car weighs. it has a full interior. im gonna try and set up the switching cars up tomorrow . Quote Link to comment
HRH Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What camber are you running in the front and rear? Fast 510s need camber. I'm running 2.5 degrees negative in the front, and damn near neutral static in the rear right now, probably goes ever so slight negative when I'm in it, and definitely goes negative after loading the rear end (punching the throttle), probably to about negative 1.5 with the 500 lb springs in the rear. (Cut a bit, so harder than that). I'm only running 200 lb springs in the front. I'm fairly happy with my cars corner manners, my high speed leaves something to be desired, but I don't often travel at more than 75 mph sustained. In fact, I usually cruise at 60-70, that's about it with the gearing. Anymore than that wastes fuel, and I'll be past 100 if I'm going to waste fuel. Then it's not cruising speed. Of course, the way mine's set up is if it understeers, punch the throttle and she'll grip and go. You have to have faith. I can enter a corner super hot, but have to make sure to hold throttle then accelerate. If I lift, the rear end will get squirrelly. Also, what driving experiences have you had? Myself, I've raced autocross since 2003, and rallycross since 2008 or so, and did a lot of stupid things on the street before that. Oh yeah, and swaybars are a crutch! ;) That'll get some debate going. I have the stock one still on, and no rear bar. As far as 13b goes, stick far away from rotaries unless your pocketbook is DEEEEEEEEP. Not cheap to build, easy to screw up. SR20 is a much better choice for reliability and ease of parts. Quote Link to comment
DISLEXICDIME Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 195 60 14 what tires ? My 195 50 15's on my sr car just brake loose. I know I need more tire! What is your tire pressure? How much caster and camber you running ? How much does your car way? Another thing is he has rack and pinion you have a steering box. Quote Link to comment
sinner720st Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 drive harder. my pickup kept up with a bmw m3 on a "local canyon" road (i knew the road better and had no fear) he lost me on the straights. all i got goin for me is good tires and a rear bar. (bfg radial t/a, craigslist bar universal rear) Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 kneesamo your are correct, got front and rear in the wrong order. Stiffer front = more understeer, less oversteer..., stiffer rear = more oversteer , less understeer. datsundan your shopping list of mods is helpful only if you tell us how your car behaves when driven hard into corners. Do the front tires break loose first, understeer. Do the rear tires break loos first, oversteer? Do both break loose together, neutral? All cars are unique, all parts (and mods) affect all other parts. Quote Link to comment
datsundan Posted January 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 "Drive harder" lol.. well here just to get a sense of my car go to youtube and search datsun510dan. That will pull up my videos. I have a couple bumper cam vids of me in the canyon with my dampning settings and tire pressure settings a little different then as of right now. Then give me some more feedback. I'll put up my alignment specs when I get back home. Quote Link to comment
HRH Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 From the looks of it your car may be a little too stiff for that road. Two, you're not going fast enough, which is probably more of a "can't see well enough to push the envelope" than ability to go fast. That is to say, your acceleration is fast, but your cornering is not. Lots of chicken lifts. Not saying I wouldn't do the same thing, especially with the acceleration potential of a turbo. But consider "smooth is fast." Completely true. Second question, are you racing your buddy in the Corolla at night? If so, you've been watching too much Initial D, and second, unless you're comfortable with your lights, you aren't going to go fast. Quote Link to comment
HRH Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Oh, and also, 60 series tires are not ideal for canyon carving. Get something in the 50 or lower series. (Pocketbook dependent.) I had 205 55 16s on my Miata and have done many many stupid runs up and over the hill towards Montana on I-90 right where you get to the other side of Coeur d'Alene. Those and massive camber were enough to hold 115 mph around the corners because I had no more power to go faster. Probably a good thing, and I really, REALLY don't recommend that to anyone, especially on public roads. Like I said, I had a little public speeding issue a while back. I'm much better now. Quote Link to comment
kneesamo Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Datzenmike: it happens, I do it all the time. :D I wanna put a camera on my bumper and see what it looks like! Second question, are you racing your buddy in the Corolla at night? If so, you've been watching too much Initial D, and second, unless you're comfortable with your lights, you aren't going to go fast. remember your not supposed to shake up the tofu in the back of your car! "Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind." — Bruce Lee Be like water my friend! Fluid! Smooth! 1 Quote Link to comment
datsundan Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 sorry about the week with no update. So I drove my buddies hachi roku and all i can say is man do those cars handle great. We made a run in our own cars... he couldn't keep up with me in my 510. so then we switched cars, and he can't keep up with me driving his corolla and him in my 510. also I couldn't find my spec sheet from the last time i got my car aligned. So I think why my 510 isn't handling so well is something is up with the car. Say when i get to a corner and start turning the wheel, once i get to a certain point turing it feels like the front end of the car lifts up and the steering wheel kinda "chops". My steering system isn't fluid and smooth like any other car i've driven. Could this be my steering box? could it be my pitman/idler arms or my center draglink?Should i just bite the bullet and convert to r&p? i also drove my other friends 510 yesterday and it has nothing done to the steering and it feels waaay more fluid and smooth than my car. Also a factor to make it handle better my friends corolla has a 2way lsd while my subie diff is a 1.5 way viscous lsd. a miata guy told my to get a 2 way "thorsen" lsd to really get gripping. does anyone know where to get a 2way thorsen diff for my subie diff? One more thing. I think the sr20det upsets the way power is put down for the 510, unless my say "dyno chart" (though I've never dynoed my car)wouldn't be very smooth cause my buddies lack of power/torque in his corolla allowed me to be full throttle through corners without having to worry about it breaking loose, making it uber nice and smooth.maybe time to put a 4ag in my 510 ;)????... Sorry about all the questions, Quote Link to comment
datzenmike Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Say when i get to a corner and start turning the wheel, once i get to a certain point turing it feels like the front end of the car lifts up and the steering wheel kinda "chops". Chops? Can you explain in more detail. Shimmy, shake, becomes easier/harder to turn, is the car starting to understeer (what happens if you let off on the gas?) does it correct this?? Quote Link to comment
nismo dr Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 this discussion is very interesting Quote Link to comment
DISLEXICDIME Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 You should check the needle bearings in your top hats. Is it notchy if you jack the car up and turn the wheel? Quote Link to comment
SoCal Rotarito Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 What camber are you running in the front and rear? Fast 510s need camber. I'm running 2.5 degrees negative in the front, and damn near neutral static in the rear right now, probably goes ever so slight negative when I'm in it, and definitely goes negative after loading the rear end (punching the throttle), probably to about negative 1.5 with the 500 lb springs in the rear. (Cut a bit, so harder than that). I'm only running 200 lb springs in the front. I'm fairly happy with my cars corner manners, my high speed leaves something to be desired, but I don't often travel at more than 75 mph sustained. In fact, I usually cruise at 60-70, that's about it with the gearing. Anymore than that wastes fuel, and I'll be past 100 if I'm going to waste fuel. Then it's not cruising speed. Of course, the way mine's set up is if it understeers, punch the throttle and she'll grip and go. You have to have faith. I can enter a corner super hot, but have to make sure to hold throttle then accelerate. If I lift, the rear end will get squirrelly. Also, what driving experiences have you had? Myself, I've raced autocross since 2003, and rallycross since 2008 or so, and did a lot of stupid things on the street before that. Oh yeah, and swaybars are a crutch! ;) That'll get some debate going. I have the stock one still on, and no rear bar. As far as 13b goes, stick far away from rotaries unless your pocketbook is DEEEEEEEEP. Not cheap to build, easy to screw up. SR20 is a much better choice for reliability and ease of parts. Quote Link to comment
danfiveten Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Get a 4 door. :) Quote Link to comment
elmerfudpucker Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 my buddy in his stock (other than lowering springs and a fresh alignment)ae86 corolla My understanding that those have like a 53/47 track F/R and the 510 is 50/50 ae86: http://www.aeu86.org/index/technical-ae86-specifications/cat/9/topic=4815 510 : http://www.datsuns.com/modelguide/modelguide-pl510.htm That is just what I could find with a quick search, the yota stock was no toy, not sayin the 510 is, and I am not sure how far the bigger motor would throw more to the front, but a heavier nose would be better in a cannon run right? But there is a crap-ton of variables to figure out. Mount a couple of cameras in your cars, go on a run and compare. I hope the info can help you guys figure it out. Quote Link to comment
SoCal Rotarito Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 No problem here on my rotaries, my first car was a RX3, race and track it all motor Street Port 13B 225HP. Also own a Rotary Pick Up and a RX7 FC first Gen. Got tired of the smog laws and got me a 1971 Datsun 510 best buy ever put my favorite motor . I even droved my 510 to the All Datsun/Nissan meet at Mount Shasta 2002, have pictures to prove it day 2 carshow pic (http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/pictures/events/shasta2002/shasta2002.html#more. 600 miles and 10 hour drive, but I was able to cut the time to 8 hours racing people who think they can take my 510 and driving over 100 mph in the 5 North Freeway, the best part with all motor with Weber 48 down draft was the gas mileage, I was able to get 21 mpg. Fun Fun! I was really happy no heating problem even in the 110 degrees heat going up the hills for 30 miles to Mount Shasta. Sold the engine with 75,000 miles on 2008 to my buddy who is still very happy. Your right about owning rotary you have to be a rotor head to love rotary and keep it in great shape but its the cheapest horse power out there. Now in Ebay you can get a sequential turbo 3 rotors 20B with 300HP stock for $4000 free shipping or RX7 FD or FC 13B motor for $2000 w/shipping. I was going for the 3 rotors but it will cost me $8000 to get it done the way I want with over 600HP. Too sick for street use. My buddy got one in his 510 scary HP ( I have heard a built SR20 can go over $12,000 to get 400HP. Now my 510 with REW 13B single Garrett turbo T63BB cost me with Cosmo REW Turbo engine with Microtech LT10 $6000 all done up with Street Port. You do need a good rotary mechanic, lucky me I got one. This motor drinks gas when I keep boosting at 16 lbs. This is called paying for the HP I want. As far as parts they are so little parts in a rotary engine to maintain. Racing Beat, MazdaTrix, Mazda Dealers and many other has all the parts you need from High Performance to Stock parts. If you have time checkout http://www.sevenstock.org/ Many vendors and racing news and checkout Datsun 510 rotaries in http://www.rx7club.com/. Just a little history on Mazda Rotary Engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_787B Although the 787 and 787B lacked the single lap pace of World Championship competitors such as Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, and Porsche, as well Japanese Championship competitors Nissan and Toyota, the Mazdas had reliability which allowed them to contend for their respective championships. The reliability of the cars eventually paid off in 1991 when a 787B driven by Johnny Herbert, Volker Weidler, and Bertrand Gachot went on to victory in the 1991 24 Hours of Le Mans. This remains as of 2010 the only victory by a Japanese marque as well as the only victory by a car not using a reciprocating engine design. Last year win: Feb 2, 2010 ... Mazda has notched up its 23rd class win at the grueling Rolex 24 Hour Daytona race held over the weekend in Florida. Many other 24 hours win too many to mention the reliability of the rotary engine. Oh forgot Mazda has the record for the fastest 6 second run on the quarter mile October 6, 2010 I'm not even going to mention the land speed records that rotaries beat. I know lots of Rotary hater out there, but its all good as long as Rotary can back it up with reliability and speed records. Its all good!!! Love my 510, Again that's just me. :-D Quote Link to comment
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