Ka dohc head on l20b

[RAlly_DatoB210]

thank you for the pictures and the encouragement i'll try and get on tonight with what i've found out form my local datsun guys ha

someone had a sohc 12 valve swap onto a z22 block in my area so this may be a possibility lets hope so!

[I'm BLUE]

^ I see orange filter-o-death their datzenmike :blink:

 

me no likey :no:

[datzenmike]

Yup. It's from a local yard. The car was crashed (probably drifter wannabe) so the motor was running. The head was sold off of it so I bought all the EFI from the intake back for a stillborn project. <_< Later the car was sold and I found it again. The new owner only wanted the struts an suspension so I got the rest of the motor for asking. I took it apart to see how it worked. :lol: Actually the 90 amp alt and high volume oil pump are now on the L18 in my '74 710. The pistons I'm saving....

 

[I'm BLUE]

very nice , kinda weird seeing the car again and gettting the rest of the goodies :lol:

 

:cool:

[RAlly_DatoB210]

That's pretty cool you just got the stuff from the car a second time around ha. I want to find a non beat down ka but it seems like the 240sx crowd just over revs and beats their poor engines to death. Then they drop in a sr.. Why? They ka is a way better motor and has more displacement. Am I the first to notice that it seems like only datsun owners get the potential out of a ka? I talked today with Simone about this lucrative build and they thought the z22 block would be better for it becase the bore is 87mm. This being said I do believe they also knew someone who had put a sohc 12 valve head Onto said z22 block. That would pretty much defeat the purpose of builing this thing up. But at 88mm bore would the L need to be sleeved? Cause that would equal $$$ more than the already big dollar dollar dollar pile beggining to add up :/ oh and the b210 had a win today in beating a D series Honda hatch :) not a record accomplishment but still not bad for a slowpos b210

[HRH]

The Z24 and truck KA24 blocks are damn near the same thing. The bolt holes line up for the transmission, block height is the same, hell they even weigh damn near the same, the only difference I've found is the smaller crank snout of the KA through the timing cover, and the plate at the back to seal the rear. The cars do have the girdle, which I'm not used to because I always get the trucks.

 

I'm currently rebuilding a Z24 bottom end, to be used with a KA top end in my hardbody. I know the sohc head will work, been curious to grab a DE head, just not quite sure if that's going to be fun and worth it. But then I don't like to make things easy, do I? :D

 

Before you ask, the KA I have is a paperweight due to lack of oil, which is why I'm using the good donor Z24 block.

 

 

[RAlly_DatoB210]

those two are close to identical but i'm sure some difference is there. does anyone have a good de head they could post pictures of next to an l head?

[datzenmike]

 

The head will bolt on but take a peep at the valve train! The rear sprocket is single link like the KA24E. It's a nightmare.

 

The KA24E head will fit the Z series timing cover.... this thing will require you to make one. Some DEs have a CAS driven out the side of the head.

.

[RAlly_DatoB210]

And there is where the trouble began. If someone could figure that out I think a Lot of people out there would love to have that kind of set up. I just feasibly don't see myself figuring this one out :( someday I wish though. A solid kat would be a lot easier for me to accomplish

[datzenmike]

et the KA24E head.

[datzenmike]

i want to say and dont quote me... but i wanna say the flat top 12 valve ka24e rod and piston combo might bring up compression? idk. you would need a bore of 88 mm though and thats getting time to sleeve the L block if you plan on boosting. i'm a fan of N/A power but i have none. i think a supercharger would be the way to go if i could find a small enough one to run. i feel like whatever i start making will still get walked on my even the jankiest of turbo cars. thats why i want to go ka/l cause it seems like it would be an amazing combo if done right.

 

 

The KA rods are 160mm long, L20B are 145.9mm long so KA rods even with their shorter pistons will hit the bottom of the head. The KA's aren't quite flattops. They do have a 2.8cc dish.

[dimedriver]

IT's All been done on OZdat with full right up and pictures.

 

 

I read the whole thing like two years ago.

I think they used the Z front timing cover and it bolted up well enough. Not factory looking but it sealed.

 

For the chain They just looked for a bottom sprocket that had the same number at the KA bottom sprocket. Im pretty sure it was the Z sprocket.

 

Next they just removed links from the chain to produce the right length and used most of the Z hardware. You could probably figure out the number of links by looking at Rockauto. They have the number for most chains. Compare the KA24DE chain to the Z24(same block height). Then compare the number of links used on the L20 vs. the Z20,Z22.

 

 

-Avery

[RAlly_DatoB210]

Do you have a link o the page? I read all twenty some pages of the sohc ka head conversion on there. There is one for the dohc?

[datzenmike]

Do you have a link o the page? I read all twenty some pages of the sohc ka head conversion on there. There is one for the dohc?

 

The only one I have seen is for the single cam. Besides it was turboed. You don't need insane breathing on a turbo motor. 12 valves is way plenty.

[RAlly_DatoB210]

That was the one I read too and it made some pretty good numbers. I got offered a complete mildly built sr20det full swap for the 510 (same guy on Vancouver cl right now) so now what? I really want tomethig to become of this rally car project but I would love to have an sr for my b210 :/ I'm not really an sr fan but for a 3k set up (inflated price) It couldn't be beat

[RAlly_DatoB210]

that was a flake deal. no sr still have the dato called the guy about the 610 and who got it?

[Gollum]

Resurrection time! Lazarus, come forth!

 

 

So you still haven't gone anywhere with this I imagine?

 

What's almost hilarious to me is that in all the threads I find on ratsun (and some other forums) when people try to weigh the pros and cons everyone seems to be missing the point entirely.

 

The KA has one of the best heads Nissan has ever made. The head itself is stable to insane RPMs, and flows like gangbusters. Even the SOHC versus the DOHC is damn impressive. Sure it doesn't have variable valve timing, but variable valve timing isn't ever what makes a head great (and that's even true for Honda's best heads).

 

The problem with the KA has ALWAYS been the bottom end. The crank isn't fully counter weighted, The engine produces strong harmonics that prevent it from revving highly without imploding on itself. Does anyone find it ironic that nobody is running a 8k (or even 7) RPM stock crank KA, while there's LS7's out there running up to 8.5K and beyond, while having a MUCH longer stroke? The RPM issues of the KA has nothing to do with stroke length, but balancing.

 

Anyone want to know which Nissan cranks ARE fully counter weighted?

L16,L18,L20B, Z20, and Z22. Probably more than that, but those are the important ones. The Z24 is NOT, but it also has the taller deck, similar to the KA. If you're going to build a hybrid KAL/KAZ engine, you want to use the Z20/Z22. Obviously all L and Z cranks interchange between each other's blocks, but I see little reason not to just use the entire Z engine, since you're going to need it's timing cover anyways.

 

 

So, for those asking why?

 

1. If robello can make a 2.3 liter L head engine make 250+ HP, imagine what a KA head can achieve with the same RPM abilities. (robello's engine only needs to rev to 8500)

 

2. The L/Z block is a much more "bolt in" affair for many older datsuns, which makes it appealing from a fitment perspective.

 

3. We already know the weight of the L/Z block is much less... yipee. Not a huge deal, but it's something.

 

4. The metallurgy of the L/Z block is much better too. Might not sound like it matters much to some, but the reality is that it matters to some degree, and those that understand know why.

 

5. The L/Z engines can still be had for cheap, and the hybrid setup can be done using 100% stock parts, as far as the longblock goes. Manifolds, EFI triggers, dizzy, etc are all up to you and your application.

 

 

And to prove I'm not some pie in the sky fanboy:

 

The cons

 

1. Without engine building and fabrication tools and skills you're most likely doomed to fail,

 

2, If you have a shop build it, it's cost prohibitive and you're better off with something else.

 

3. The L/Z block supply will dry up sooner than KA supplies.

 

4. You can always just buy the brian crower stroker kit and use the KA and be done with it.

 

5. KA has the later bellhousing pattern which gives it a few better transmission options that are easier to adapt.

 

6. KA aftermarket parts are affordable, and plentiful, like flywheel/clutch while the L/Z have fewer options that tend to be more expensive

 

7. Other modern engines have really come down in price over the last 5-10 years, and really make a lot of us question the expense of playing with these old toys. A 240HP F20/2 looks better and better every year.

 

 

So all that to say that I'd love to see more people do it, and not just that, but more people understand why there's value. I'm not here to discredit the KA, as I highly respect those that build them. I follow KA builds, especially turbo, with lots of interest. It's only a shame that nissan never made them with a good crank, which would have alleviated much of the "truck engine" stigma the KA has.

[Xnke]

I have been collecting parts for about 8 years for a KA20DET, that will turn north of 9000RPM when I finish...There is a stock KA20DE out there. Sold in Japanese minivans, and yes, it does have a fully counterbalanced crank...curious...

[datzenmike]

Anyone want to know which Nissan cranks ARE fully counter weighted?

L16,L18,L20B, Z20, and Z22.

Fully counter weighted are L16/18, L20B and the Z20 which runs an L20B crank. The Z22 is not fully counter weighted. Perhaps the Z22 from the 200sx but the truck ones sure aren't.

 

Obviously all L and Z cranks interchange between each other's blocks, but I see little reason not to just use the entire Z engine, since you're going to need it's timing cover anyways.

Wow this is totally wrong. L16 and L18 cranks will not fit L20B and larger blocks.

 

5. KA has the later bellhousing pattern which gives it a few better transmission options that are easier to adapt.

So what "better transmission options" are easier to adapt to the KA????

 

The KA transmission can be adapted easily for use on the L series. Fits right onto the Z series motors. The KA 71C trans bolt pattern and orientation is identical to the Z series 71B. By swapping a L series oriented front case onto a 71C, it can be used on an L series motor. The L series, Z / KA bolt patterns are the same just the orientation is different.

 

 

 

So all that to say that I'd love to see more people do it, and not just that, but more people understand why there's value. I'm not here to discredit the KA, as I highly respect those that build them. I follow KA builds, especially turbo, with lots of interest. It's only a shame that nissan never made them with a good crank, which would have alleviated much of the "truck engine" stigma the KA has.

 

Never heard a KA referred to as a 'truck motor'... the Z24 yes. But then again it was.

[Xnke]

There are fully counterbalanced Z22 cranks out there, from the 200SX cars. I have only ever seen one personally, but I pulled three Z22's from 200SX's that DID NOT have the fully counterbalanced cranks.

 

I used the Z22 block with an L20B crank, and the KADE head...and yes, the timing chain problems are not trivial even if you have a machine shop. The KA-E head is MUCH easier to get onto an L-series block..and in my opinion is a better choice.

 

But, it's hard to argue with the KADE head...it is, for a lack of better lingual knowledge on my part, fuckin' beautiful, from an engine builder's point of view.

[datzenmike]

I've only seen the truck 22 cranks. It's what I'm going to use because I don't have anything else at the moment. Good to know about the S110 crank being counter weighted though. Wish I had one now.

[Gollum]

Fully counter weighted are L16/18, L20B and the Z20 which runs an L20B crank. The Z22 is not fully counter weighted. Perhaps the Z22 from the 200sx but the truck ones sure aren't.

Xkne is correct, the 200SX ones are fully counterweighted, and I prefer to start with that engine anyways.

 

Wow this is totally wrong. L16 and L18 cranks will not fit L20B and larger blocks.

 Sorry, I was under the impression the cranks all swapped. Do you know what exactly doesn't fit? Did Nissan change the main journal size?

 

So what "better transmission options" are easier to adapt to the KA????

The Z31 turbo/RB25 transmissions are much easier to adapt, and almost as strong as the Z32 trans. Obviously people have put the Z32 trans on the L block as well, just slightly more complicated.

The KA transmission can be adapted easily for use on the L series. Fits right onto the Z series motors. The KA 71C trans bolt pattern and orientation is identical to the Z series 71B. By swapping a L series oriented front case onto a 71C, it can be used on an L series motor. The L series, Z / KA bolt patterns are the same just the orientation is different.

 

 

Never heard a KA referred to as a 'truck motor'... the Z24 yes. But then again it was.

Gets said by the S13/S14 crowd constantly and is a huge stigma that goes along with the "we love the SR like it's God" tend/mindset.

 

 

I used the Z22 block with an L20B crank, and the KADE head...and yes, the timing chain problems are not trivial even if you have a machine shop. The KA-E head is MUCH easier to get onto an L-series block..and in my opinion is a better choice.

 

But, it's hard to argue with the KADE head...it is, for a lack of better lingual knowledge on my part, fuckin' beautiful, from an engine builder's point of view.

 

Yes, certainly not trivial, but considering how easily the SOHC swaps it amazes me how few we actually see documented.

 

The DE is certainly pure sex, but I'd contest that even the E is as good as many of the DOHC heads nissan built...

[datzenmike]

Xkne is correct, the 200SX ones are fully counterweighted, and I prefer to start with that engine anyways.

Yes, I wasn't sure about the S110 only the truck cranks. I'm now looking for an S110 crank.

 

 

Sorry, I was under the impression the cranks all swapped. Do you know what exactly doesn't fit? Did Nissan change the main journal size?

The L16/18 are smaller diameter than the 6 bolt L20B and Z series engines. Watch out some manuals are written incorrectly about this. KA mains are same diameter as the L20B/Z series but narrower in width.

[blackmarkit]

I'm not sure if everyone is aware but peter McDonnell has been doing ka24de heads on L series blocks for awhile. He has lots of YouTube videos. They produce 290hp n/a. All out race.

[K_trip]

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