Why ZDDP levels are dropping and why you need more.

[datzenmike]

Basically newer engines and those in the future don't need it or won't need it and why, but your engines are 40+ years older and designed for and need higher levels to protect the cam on rocker arm surfaces.

 

 

[SWFL]

AFAIK, real oils like Redline still have more than enough, as they are designed for racing, not EPA compliance. You can also buy zinc additive to mix with the engine oil, but who knows if that will mess with the additive package in the oil.

[datzenmike]

For the present, diesel oils are exempt from the lowering or removal but this may change. I use Rotella T4 and have for about 10 years. The range should be over 1,000 ppm and Rotella is 1,200. Too much, (above 1,400?) is also not good.

[pidge]

Mike do you have a pic of the jug you use? Went looking last summer and wasn’t sure what to get. The viscosity #’s had me scratching my head. Went to Crappy Tire and picked up some of this stuff to add to the oil change. 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by pidge

[datzenmike]

Viscosity rating is how well it flows when cold as all oils flow about the same when hot. A lower number (I would never run a 5w anything) is easier on the starter and gets to the bearings faster in extremely cold weather. I doubt you drive year round in Ontario so 10w30 is good and if exclusively in the hot summer months 15w40 is also good.

 

Shell Rotella T4 comes in 15w40 which is good to about freezing and too thick for Ontario winters and a bit thick even here where it can hit double digit -C. I used it because I only drive in the summer. Years later I found that it does come in 10w30 and switched.

 

  

 

That ZDDP additive bottle is ok, but you need to know the ZDDP rating in the oil that you are using so that you don't over do it. 1,000PPM is OK, 1,200PPM is what Rotella has and don't go above 1,400PPM. Off te shelf oils today are 600PPM to 800PPM ZDDP.

 

Diesel oils are VERY detergent so you may notice that after an oil change from conventional oils to diesel that the oil seems to get dirty a lot faster, that because the oil is dissolving the build up inside your engine. Dirty isn't bad, the oil is still good to use and after a couple of changes this settles down as your engine cleans itself.

[Logical1]

Out of curiosity why is over 1,400ppm not good?

[datzenmike]

I didn't know this until recently. There is an upper limit where it becomes counter productive. It's around 1,400-1,600PPM. Same as adding antifreeze to coolant. It reaches maximum freezing protection at about 50/50 and above that the freezing point begins to rise again.

[pidge]

20 hours ago, datzenmike said:

Viscosity rating is how well it flows when cold as all oils flow about the same when hot. A lower number (I would never run a 5w anything) is easier on the starter and gets to the bearings faster in extremely cold weather. I doubt you drive year round in Ontario so 10w30 is good and if exclusively in the hot summer months 15w40 is also good.

 

Shell Rotella T4 comes in 15w40 which is good to about freezing and too thick for Ontario winters and a bit thick even here where it can hit double digit -C. I used it because I only drive in the summer. Years later I found that it does come in 10w30 and switched.

 

  

 

That ZDDP additive bottle is ok, but you need to know the ZDDP rating in the oil that you are using so that you don't over do it. 1,000PPM is OK, 1,200PPM is what Rotella has and don't go above 1,400PPM. Off te shelf oils today are 600PPM to 800PPM ZDDP.

 

Diesel oils are VERY detergent so you may notice that after an oil change from conventional oils to diesel that the oil seems to get dirty a lot faster, that because the oil is dissolving the build up inside your engine. Dirty isn't bad, the oil is still good to use and after a couple of changes this settles down as your engine cleans itself.

I’ll be honest I don’t know what the amount of ZDDP in the oil I used. Only remember it was a 10w30, probably Quaker State or what was on the shelf on sale and not a synthetic. Good to know that too much ZDDP can be counter productive as well. I watched your vid you linked, but I’ll have to watch it a few more times to truly understand the whole thing. Truck is away for the winter in storage, but come spring I’ll do a change with the 10w30 Rotella T4 you’ve posted. Thanks again man. 
-Pidge

[datzenmike]

ZDDP is poison to all new car catalytic converters. By law they now have to last 100k miles? or life of the car? something. That's not going to happen with the old levels of ZDDP. Valve trains are all re designed to not need ZDDP (mostly roller lifters or rocker arms) or very low levels and oil makers began lowering the levels and are now around 600PPM or half what they were when Datsuns were new. Oil makers say it's reverse compatible with older engines but I'm not so trusting. Once my rocker arms and cam lobes are ground away, who's going to pay to replace them??????????? will there be any to replace with. Datsuns don't have the new tech catalytic converters so what's wrong with having an oil that has the same ZDDP levels as pre '90s oils?????

 

It's not rocket science to maintain the old levels of above 1,000 PPM by just walking down the aisle to the diesel oil section. I'm keeping an eye on the diesel; ZDDP levels also. May eventually have to switch to racing oil or additives.

[a.d._510_n_ok]

I just know straight weights are all but disappearing. Drop a quart of 40 in my 55's 235 and it slowed the oil consumption. Can't get it no more from the auto part chains. I run the diesel oil in my oldies but 10w-30 is still lighter than what I'd prefer. Pretty sure all I need is valve guides but local machine shops piss their pants when I talk about bringing the head in for a rebuild. Ring and a valve job would have her right as rain! 

Edited December 24, 2022 by a.d._510_n_ok

[datzenmike]

Rotella T4 does come in 15w40 if that helps.

 

You can do your valve seals yourself using only a couple of feet of rope. Set on the beginning of the compression stroke, slip a couple of feet of nylon rope in the plug hole, tie knot on end. Turn engine by hand to compress rope against the closed valves, Compress and remove valve spring, remove valve seal, install both new seals and put back together, move to next cylinder. The beauty of the rope is you could do this on the side of the road and stop any time and finish the next day. Why anyone would go to all the trouble of fittings, a compressor and electricity is beyond me.

[SWFL]

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-toolbox/zddp-content-chart-high-zinc-oil-list-brand-breakdown/32479

[datzenmike]

Doesn't say which Rotella T but the T4 is 1,200PPM

[difrangia]

5 hours ago, a.d._510_n_ok said:

I just know straight weights are all but disappearing. Drop a quart of 40 in my 55's 235 and it slowed the oil consumption. Can't get it no more from the auto part chains. I run the diesel oil in my oldies but 10w-30 is still lighter than what I'd prefer. Pretty sure all I need is valve guides but local machine shops piss their pants when I talk about bringing the head in for a rebuild. Ring and a valve job would have her right as rain! 

 

Sweet 210 four-door survivor you got there, Okie. Original dog dish caps even. What a flashback; my first car was a brown with white top sedan just like your 210. Six cylinder was long gone. It got a '64 283 pulled out of a new 64 Chevy by dealer who thought it had a coolant leak from a bad casting. Probably just a leaking head gasket. It shortly got Vette pistons, 098 cam, and a Rochester fuel-injection unit from a 58 Vette. Too many memories to start listing. Owned probably 20 Tri-5 Chevys over the next twenty years; Nomad and 4-door Hardtop are the only bodies that I've never owned. Sent the last one down the road twenty years ago. As a defense to a charge of trying to hijack the thread, my dad was a Chevy dealer mechanic for a decade in 50's-60's and he wouldn't put an engine together without painting all the parts & pieces with EOS, General Motors ZDDP additive and putting half the can in the sump for break-in.

[datzenmike]

Had a two door robin's egg blue '55 with the blue flame six for $100 winter car in Ontario. In the year I had it I don't ever remember needing to add any oil. Sold it to a guy who said it got 28 MPG (Canadian gallon) I found out he never changed the ownership so he apologized and gave the car back! Uhhh OK.

[a.d._510_n_ok]

You guys got better stories than me. My mom became a single mom because of me (not an easy thing to be in a small Oklahoma town in 1969). At that time she was driving a 1955 Chevrolet 210 four door 235/3 speed and since she could only afford me *OR* the 55 so she sold the 55. Everyone I tell that story to tells me she made the wrong choice and I can't argue with that. 

[difrangia]

That 210 four-door with the Rochester FI got traded to my brother (body only) for a 1940 Plymouth four-door survivor when I got married. Wife was only 15 and learned to drive in that Plymouth. Sold the Plowmouth to a co-worker who who took the back seat out and threw it away; he put a small mattress in place of the seat and lived in it for a while. Our next car as recently weds was a two-tone green '56 Bel-Air four door post sedan.

 

Rolled another 55 210 four-door in 69 after brother and I left a 'too wild' party one Friday night. I don't think I ever drove any Tri-5's as 'dailys' except the four-doors. Had convertibles and hardtops and like I said, never a Nomad. Shouda kept all the Chevys.

 

Just to stay on 'topic' I think I used the EOS ZDDP addative in all the Chevys.

[datzenmike]

59 minutes ago, difrangia said:

 Wife was only 15 and .....

 

 

My wife was only 13 years....

 

 

 

... younger than me.

[difrangia]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

My wife was only 13 years....

 

 

 

... younger than me.

 

Evidently/possibly, 'Cradle Robbers' are attracted to Datsuns eventually !! I've still got the 15 year old one cookin' & holdin'-down-the-fort for me 56 years later.

[datzenmike]

The secret to long life is a young wife.

[Anonymous Waffle]

Rotella T4 15w40 is what I've been running in my cars for 6+ years or so, affordable and actually has good zinc levels. Someone should send it over to one of those chemical testing facilities and see if it does contain the 1200 PPM they say it contains. 

 

If any of yall have never watched Project Farm on youtube, you definitely should, he's quite scientific in his approach to testing oils, tools, and all kinds of other products on youtube. He's done a couple of oil testing videos and has shipped samples to testing facilities to check for the contents before, but I don't think he has tested Rotella T4 yet. 

 

 

[datzenmike]

NEVER NEVER NEVER use that shit by STP. EVER. No engine short of NASCAR needs it. Even they don't. If burning a quart every two hundred miles it's fine for that. Your car will barely turn over in the winter and it takes forever to suck that shit up from the oil pan. It's like honey and dirt and crap sticks all over the insides of the engine. What do you think oil companies test their products for???? So you can second guess them???  what? they don't know what they are doing so you add that shit to it???? Give me a break.

 

 

[Anonymous Waffle]

On 12/25/2022 at 5:12 PM, datzenmike said:

NEVER NEVER NEVER use that shit by STP. EVER. No engine short of NASCAR needs it. Even they don't. If burning a quart every two hundred miles it's fine for that. Your car will barely turn over in the winter and it takes forever to suck that shit up from the oil pan. It's like honey and dirt and crap sticks all over the insides of the engine. What do you think oil companies test their products for???? So you can second guess them???  what? they don't know what they are doing so you add that shit to it???? Give me a break.

 

 

 

I don't use STP, I don't really use any additives ever. I just run Rotella T4, and that's it, and sometimes I'll add a little bit of Lucas oil ZDDP every few oil changes. 

 

I just pulled that YouTube video since it shows the results in the end of the video of the testing facility. Take a deep breath Mike 😂