L20B crank trigger ignition

[datzenmike]

The dizzy has a bushing so even if the spindle is wobbly it shouldn't affect anything. Pull the dizzy and see if the spindle is loose?

 

 

Having said that. The stator and reluctor ring in the dizzy. Both have four points that pass close to each other and generate a small pulse that the module amplifies. The stator is stationary and the reluctor turns. All four line up 4 times per turn of the dizzy BUT the number one stator and reluctor positions never change. The same two always face each other when the #1 plug is to be fired. 

 

Perhaps these two are damaged slightly or perhaps the dizzy wobbles closer to this one and away from the others disrupting the pulse? Try wiggling the distributor and see if there is play side to side.

[kelowg]

Gap between reluctor and stator point should be the same. Crazy thought, advance plug wires on cap one position forward or back. Then reposition spindle to correct timing. See if problem is same or issue moves to different plug/wire.

[CameronT]

Spindle ?

I probably have enough room to move the dizzy over one place between the regular adjustment and the screw on the bottom plate under the dizzy. Someone suggested flipping the cap around, but they weren't farmiliar with imports at all... What's this going to tell me anyway, other then I have a problem with number 1 ?

[wayno]

I assume it misses at an idle, and when you rev it you can tell it is still missing by the sound.

 

This may sound stupid but do it anyway, while the engine is idling, put a good thick glove on and pull number one wire off the plug, it should not effect the the idle if number one wire is not hitting, now move the wire real close to the end of the plug, does it spark/arc/snap, if it does you have spark.

Now if it does spark/arc/snap, then hold the wire close so that it sparks/arcs/snaps several times in a row, if the idle smooths out check the gap on that plug, it's likely not correct

If it doesn't smooth out make sure the plug is good by changing it, and check the valve lash/clearance on valves of that cylinder.

[Boxcar]

 Check your Mass ground from the engine to the frame / cab . A bad ground will sometimes cause ghosting with the ignition. 

To check this , run a ground wire from the body of the dizzy directly to the neg side of the battery.

[Charlie69]

My dizzy refuses to consistently fire cylinder number 1. I have installed three different dizzies and replaced the cap, rotor, and wires, confirming all worked. I currently have a 1980 dizzy. I just replaced the oil pump and got it to fire long enough to drive it around for awhile, then it started not firing again. The only thing I can think to do next is check the gear that's on the crank for slop. This engine has worked flawlessly for approximately 30,00 miles since the rebuild. It's not a valve issue, or engine issue, the dizzy simply isn't sending the spark down the wire, while oil pressure is fine.

I figured a crank trigger ignition would get me over this situation and back on the road. The plates expire next month so I could use the info soon.

Yes Jester, I have read those blogs and if you'll notice there isn't any parts listed, or any follow up on whether it actually worked on a L20 motor.

Have you changed the #1 spark plug?

[datzenmike]

My dizzy refuses to consistently fire cylinder number 1. I have installed three different dizzies and replaced the cap, rotor, and wires, confirming all worked. I currently have a 1980 dizzy. I just replaced the oil pump and got it to fire long enough to drive it around for awhile, then it started not firing again. The only thing I can think to do next is check the gear that's on the crank for slop. This engine has worked flawlessly for approximately 30,00 miles since the rebuild. It's not a valve issue, or engine issue, the dizzy simply isn't sending the spark down the wire, while oil pressure is fine.

I figured a crank trigger ignition would get me over this situation and back on the road. The plates expire next month so I could use the info soon.

Yes Jester, I have read those blogs and if you'll notice there isn't any parts listed, or any follow up on whether it actually worked on a L20 motor.

 

 

Oops, that was 30,000 miles.

Also; the gear on the rod between the dizzy and the oil pump looks perfect, there aren't any signs of chipping or wear whatsoever.

This has been a long battle, I have become frustrated several times and just let it sit before going back at it...

After confirming several times that all the parts above the dizzy were fine (cap, rotor, wires, plugs, ground wires, hot wires, coil) I have since focused my attention to the rod, oil pump, and next would be the gear on the crank itself as I have already mentioned.

When I saw the threads on the crank trigger ignition I thought this would be easier then pulling the whole front of my motor off in search of something else.

 

Doesn't actually say the plug was replaced. Easy enough to swap into #2 and see if the problem goes away on #1.

[Charlie69]

Doesn't actually say the plug was replaced. Easy enough to swap into #2 and see if the problem goes away on #1.

 

That is exactly why I asked the question!

[CameronT]

Alright let me catch up with all of you;

 

Wayno, the spark isn't going into the wire at all, nothing on number 1.

 

Charlie69, I have replaced (more then once) the dizzy, plugs, cap, rotor, and wires, also checked the resistance of the wires.

 

Datzenmike, read reply to charlie69.

 

I had nothing from number 1 no matter what I replaced or did, so on the advice of my dad started considering what is below the dizzy. The rod seems fine on a visual inspection and nothing looks abby normal there, so I thought I would replace the oil pump, which actually solved the problem temporarily, now it's back to doing the same thing.

Does the rod spin in a bushing or just in the aluminum that the cover is made of ?

I don't really want to take that cover off as I think it will be nearly impossible to get it back together without a leak unless the head is pulled at the same time. That's why I have been wondering about the crank trigger ignition, thinking I could throw this on and not have to pull the front of my motor off

[datzenmike]

No bushing just aluminum case.

 

The spindle doesn't stop spinning so how does it not fire one cylinder and yet manages to fire the other three? or does it?? You mentioned that a big flame popped out the exhaust as a back fire. One cylinder can't have enough to do that but if there is a loose wire on the coil it could briefly shut off the power to several cylinders filling up the down pipe enough to cause a large bang when power is resumed. Don't assume that just number one is firing randomly.

[CameronT]

I'm not assuming, number 1 cylinder definitely isn't firing or fires seldom. By seldom I mean the light will flash then a second and a half later fire again

[kelowg]

Is there a tach connected or any other non stock wiring in ign circuit?

[TENDRIL]

this cant be this difficult, wouldnt it be cheaper to get a new dizzy? than run crank angle ignition ? 

[wayno]

You see that you are saying there is nothing on number one, and then you say that it fires or the light flashes then a second and a half later flashes again.

Do you know that I can make it do what you are talking about on purpose, all I have to do is ground out the #1 spark plug wire to a head bolt and the light flashes on that wire at less than quarter speed(about every second or so, but evenly), so if the plug gap was slammed shut by a piece carbon or something else that got into the cylinder, it would do just what you are talking about, it would cause a miss on that cylinder, and when a timing light was connected to that wire, it will not show steady spark because the gap is closed on the plug which grounds it out(dead cylinder).

Did you know that you can time your engine by using #4 plug wire also.

Did you pull the plug and check the gap?

Is that plug soaking wet when you pull it, if it is then it could be totally flooded out, they don't run good flooded.

I just in the past week had an issue with number 1 plug myself, it kept missing and spark was intermittent, it turned out the the gap was about 10 thousands, once I re-gapped the plug I was good to go, no more issues.

If your plug is bad, or the gap is closed all the way or most the way, you will have the same symptoms, I can recreate them, I did recreate them this morning on a running engine just so I could say what I am saying and not be talking out my ass.

Are you using NGK plugs?

 

Alright let me catch up with all of you;

 

Wayno, the spark isn't going into the wire at all, nothing on number 1.

 

Charlie69, I have replaced (more then once) the dizzy, plugs, cap, rotor, and wires, also checked the resistance of the wires.

 

Datzenmike, read reply to charlie69.

 

I had nothing from number 1 no matter what I replaced or did, so on the advice of my dad started considering what is below the dizzy. The rod seems fine on a visual inspection and nothing looks abby normal there, so I thought I would replace the oil pump, which actually solved the problem temporarily, now it's back to doing the same thing.

Does the rod spin in a bushing or just in the aluminum that the cover is made of ?

I don't really want to take that cover off as I think it will be nearly impossible to get it back together without a leak unless the head is pulled at the same time. That's why I have been wondering about the crank trigger ignition, thinking I could throw this on and not have to pull the front of my motor off

[CameronT]

The plugs have been replaced , and I always check the gap before they go in. When I say there's nothing on number 1 I mean it's absolutely nothing, or very sporadic and no, there is no rhythm to it at all. My dad has been working on cars for years and hasn't ever seen anything like this before, he has been trying to figure it out as well. In fact he suggested looking at what actually drives the dizzy, instead of concentrating up top because nothing there worked at all.

No, I didn't know you could time it using number four, I have always used number 1 because that's what I was taught.

The plug is a little damp but by no means soaked. I only turn the key long enough to verify if I have spark there and shut it down.

I've been dealing with this problem for a few months, once I get to that point where I'm frustrated I leave it alone for awhile before I go back to it.

 

Why would replacing the oil pump solve the problem temporarily ?

[CameronT]

TENDRIL, I have put in two stock dizzies, and am now running a '80 matchbox.

I was thinking the crank trigger ignition would get me past this frustration and have a steadier idle as well

[wayno]

So this doesn't run?

The plugs have been replaced , and I always check the gap before they go in. When I say there's nothing on number 1 I mean it's absolutely nothing, or very sporadic and no, there is no rhythm to it at all. My dad has been working on cars for years and hasn't ever seen anything like this before, he has been trying to figure it out as well. In fact he suggested looking at what actually drives the dizzy, instead of concentrating up top because nothing there worked at all.

No, I didn't know you could time it using number four, I have always used number 1 because that's what I was taught.

The plug is a little damp but by no means soaked. I only turn the key long enough to verify if I have spark there and shut it down.

I've been dealing with this problem for a few months, once I get to that point where I'm frustrated I leave it alone for awhile before I go back to it.

 

Why would replacing the oil pump solve the problem temporarily ?

It likely would not fix it by replacing the oil pump, but that would likely necessitate removing the dizzy meaning something changed, at least temporarily. 

I live across the river from you in Vancouver, this kinda stuff interests me, it's a challenge, if you email me(email below) we could set up a time for me to come look at it, I set my engines up by eye when I do a head gasket or rebuild, and then fine tune everything after it's running.

It just doesn't make sense, something isn't set up right.

[datzenmike]

I'm not assuming, number 1 cylinder definitely isn't firing or fires seldom. By seldom I mean the light will flash then a second and a half later fire again

 

Agreed. Do any of the other cylinders do the same.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It sounds like you still haven't actually verified the #1 spark. You're still checking the existence of spark using the timing light?

First off - that's not a proper way to diagnose anything. You must remove all variables to get to the root of the matter. Assume nothing.

 

Secondly - timing lights have been known to lose the connection from time to time. I have a $500 Snap-On timing light and it does happen. Saying that you know there is not spark because the timing light skips a beat is making a huge assumption.

[CameronT]

So this doesn't run?

It likely would not fix it by replacing the oil pump, but that would likely necessitate removing the dizzy meaning something changed, at least temporarily.

I live across the river from you in Vancouver, this kinda stuff interests me, it's a challenge, if you email me(email below) we could set up a time for me to come look at it, I set my engines up by eye when I do a head gasket or rebuild, and then fine tune everything after it's running.

It just doesn't make sense, something isn't set up right.

 

Well I am out in clackamas, it is boggling my mind and has me completely looking for other options as you can see, I used to go to the Beaverton meets here and there and have seen and talked to you, I have a yellow 620 and it has changed too since you last saw it, but let me know if you wanna come out we can do food and beer or something

[wayno]

You will need to email me to set up a time for me to come over, I don't remember you even though I might once I see you.

I bought a yellow stepside box from a guy with a yellow 620 quite some time ago, but that was out in Boring.

Just email me. 

Well I am out in clackamas, it is boggling my mind and has me completely looking for other options as you can see, I used to go to the Beaverton meets here and there and have seen and talked to you, I have a yellow 620 and it has changed too since you last saw it, but let me know if you wanna come out we can do food and beer or something

[yello620]

 

 

Why would replacing the oil pump solve the problem temporarily ?

 

 

Did you remove the dizzy when you replaced the oil pump? Pretty sure it is almost mandatory to do so....

 

Since you removed the dizzy to do an oil pump, the reason that it ran seemed better afterwards is because you disturbed(for the better) something in the wiring or a ground which quickly failed again..

 

Curious, do you have a ground wire going to the body of the distributor like the factory did?

[datzenmike]

The oil pump and the drive spindle can easily be removed without removing the distributor. I think we earlier covered grounding the distributor??

 

 

My question is.... If the distributor just  spins and fires 2 3 4 how does it get past #1 and not generate a pulse?

 

 

I still thing all the other spark plugs misfire also when the #1 plug does.