Franken motors

[datzenmike]

I can't imagine what 200 hp is like in a 510.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

When it's a smooth power delivery and not peaky or "on the cam" it can be a LOT of fun....too much fun in fact...which is why I don't own a 510 any more. Adrenaline and I have an ongoing aversion to the law.

[Lee R]

Go the Toyota route for a franken motor.  Toyota 3S-GE Beams is relatively cheap, makes around 200 at 7500RPM or so, has a 6 speed manual.  It'll fit pretty awesome and there is some aftermarket support for it.

[hosestop@msn.com]

Measure trans length , the Beamis and trans are really long , I was going to install one in a Toyota truck but was way too long. Leave it in a Toyota anyway .

[willz]

can you get around 150 with the L20? If so what would that involve?

[datzenmike]

They are stock with 150 hamsters.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

I find that hard to believe. In what configuration?

[willz]

Is one hamster = .3 horsepower?

[datzenmike]

I find that hard to believe. In what configuration?

 

3 rotor with 50 hamsters per rotor.

 

 

 

Is one hamster = .3 horsepower?

 

I think 0.62 hp.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Those are some fat hamsters.

[willz]

What would the better route be? 2.3 bore or the 2.3 stroker? I read somewhere that the 2.4 pushes into the cylinder wall creating excess wear and i'd like to not have to worry about that.

 

so:

2.3 (bore or stroke)

balanced and weight matched lower

closed chamber head with a crap ton of porting and matched gaskets, oversized valves, good matched cam

tubular exhaust manifold/or something like a nice header

dual 45 sidedraft webers

 

whats the realistic expectations for this motor?

[datzenmike]

Bore is way easier. Just an Z22 with KA pistons and a few exterior L20B parts to tilt it for use as an L series engine. Basically a larger displacement L22. If you take into account the Z22 stroke over and above the L20B crank it a bore and stroke increase. All that's needed for machining is an over bore to the block.

 

Stroke requires a cut down and balanced Z24 crank throws and clearanced block. If using an L20B block it will need to be bored for Z22 pistons. If using a Z22 block you may still want to over bore to clean up the cylinders for new rings. This will require new over size pistons. You will need to find the Z20E 6" rods which are not that common compared to the tens of thousands of L20B and Z22 rods out there. All this to avoid a Z24 block? and 100cc less? Stuffing a Z24 crank into a 2cm less taller block is going to side load the pistons. I see no advantage to all the work except that it can be done. 

[willz]

So say I find a z22 block, throw the ka pistons in it, I can still put a peanut head on it right? pretty easy swap over to the 620 mounts?

I guess it would the best way to go seeing as this is my daily driver and I wont be pulling the L20b out just to spend a month or more building it up.

[willz]

going that route, with the aforementioned upgrades:

balanced and weight matched lower

closed chamber head with a crap ton of porting and matched gaskets, oversized valves, good matched cam

tubular exhaust manifold/or something like a nice header

dual 45 sidedraft webers

 

what is the realistic power output of that particular setup? any dyno graphs available?

[datzenmike]

A Z22 bored to take 89mm KA 24E pistons, Z22 or 20B rods and Z22 crank. A closed chamber head will bump the compression to 10.44 and an open chamber head is only 9.8. Your call but the open chamber U67 has larger valves and ports than any closed chamber head and a point of compression is only good for about a 4% increase in power, often less. At a guess about 5 hp on a 2.3 motor.

[willz]

Good information, but the question is still how much power will it be making? I would really like to see a dynometer read out of a similar setup to understand what I would be dealing with.... I really would prefer not to go the sr20 or KA route. Ive been used to driving a 1992 audi s4 that made well over 600whp, a 1980 vw scirroco that made close to 300, my 85 corolla made a hare over 185 and I know I needed more out of that thing... I really want something that fits me as a driver.

 

so mike, 2.3L...

at least 150 to the wheels?

[datzenmike]

going that route, with the aforementioned upgrades:

balanced and weight matched lower

closed chamber head with a crap ton of porting and matched gaskets, oversized valves, good matched cam

tubular exhaust manifold/or something like a nice header

dual 45 sidedraft webers

 

what is the realistic power output of that particular setup? any dyno graphs available?

.

Sorry didn't see this part. Well we can only draw some conclusions here as there are not a lot of them with dyno graphs.

 

Byron from The Realm had (has) an LZ22. He had a mystery cam, U67 head and dual side drafts with a header. Made 136 RWHP. This dyno sheet is from a year later with his own home made EFI. Not that much difference. He said he didn't know the specs on the cam and had it laying around. Said he 'threw the motor together' but he is a machinist by trade.

 

 

This would translate out to about 160 hp at the crank. This is very impressive for 2.2 liters. I'm building a 2.3 and expect maybe 130 RWHP

[willz]

I like the look of that graph, assuming my L20b is making around 100hp (give or take 5) a boost of 30hp in a vehicle that small is quite a noticeable difference. I think it'll do.... for now haha

[datzenmike]

You're going L20B block with KA pistons? That's quite a cylinder cut. I would advise a Z22 block as it's half the amount to remove and the walls will be thicker when done.

 

Not saying an L20B can't be bored 2mm....

[willz]

You're going L20B block with KA pistons? That's quite a cylinder cut. I would advise a Z22 block as it's half the amount to remove and the walls will be thicker when done.

 

Not saying an L20B can't be bored 2mm....

 

Long term what would be the better way to go? I'm slightly worried about the hardiness of the block as Ive heard the stories of them cracking

[MicroMachinery]

A Z22 bored to take 89mm KA 24E pistons, Z22 or 20B rods and Z22 crank. A closed chamber head will bump the compression to 10.44 and an open chamber head is only 9.8. Your call but the open chamber U67 has larger valves and ports than any closed chamber head and a point of compression is only good for about a 4% increase in power, often less. At a guess about 5 hp on a 2.3 motor.

 

 

I did this, but with Z24 D21 pistons instead of the KA24E ones. It put my compression down around 8.5:1, and that's WITH a closed chamber, SSS head. I can advance my timing so far that it starts running crappy again, with no sign of detonation(not that I'd want to, but just to show how much room you have to play with). Don't have to run premium, either ;) I'm very happy with mine, except for the mileage..

[EricJB]

L20b std bore is 85mm

Z22 std bore is 87mm

Ka/ Z24 pistons are 89mm

 

Paying a machine shop to bore a Z22 block 2mm is going to be a lot cheaper than an L20b 4mm. And the L20 will be thin. I wouldn't hesitate to bore an L20b 2mm and use Z22 pistons though.

If your going to hunt down a Z22 crank, you might as well get the block too.

With a closed chamber head (a87) you could use z24 pistons to lower the compression a bit. But I think the rod would need to be narrowed a bit to fit in some pistons.

 

Z22 short block with Ka pistons, and a u67 head is the way to go, IMO. 

 

[Sealik]

 

With a closed chamber head (a87) you could use z24 pistons to lower the compression a bit. But I think the rod would need to be narrowed a bit to fit in some pistons.

 

 

Yup.....the Z22 rods are about 2mm thicker than the Z24s....which left about .012

This is before my Z22 rods were shaved for the Z24 (NPR) pistons....stock clearance is a tad under 3mm I believe

[MicroMachinery]

I tried a Z22 short block with U67. The detonation was too much, even on premium. I can't recall if the calculations for adding KA pistons made it higher or lower, but I know that the Z24 pistons have a bigger dish to them, which lowered the CR considerably.

 

I do like that you noted that the pin ends of the rods need to be narrowed to use the Z24 pistons.. I completely forgot about that. It's very minimal, but still a good idea.

[Sealik]

Here's my LZ23 with Z24 pistons/ported U67 head/46mmSUs/Shabolt.491/260 cam

Throttled it around 2100

Shifted at 4800RPM because of a strange noise emanating from the trannie...not the typical 6500

Profiled another set of needles and brought the A/F ratios up to 12.2 at WOT

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rll2HlYnq6I