Points to EI.... No spark

[metalmonkey47]

Just put a remote ign dizzy on my 620 using a matchbox module and coil.

 

I have no spark from the coil

 

I have verified all the wiring from the matchbox to the coil, and have B on box to '+' and C as '-'... EDIT: Also have the white/black from the ballast resistor hooked up to '+'. Forgot to mention before...

 

 

Help please! Gotta be at work in a few hours.

Edited January 6, 2012 by metalmonkey47

[Stupid_fast]

How do you have it hooked up? ballast resistor on the coil?

Need info...

 

this might help, from datsun 1200 wiki..

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Matchbox_Testing

 

 

quote from hainz,

 

the dwg shows what I have on my 510.

the blk/wht is the 12volt ON from fuse box, will call this the HIgh side.

the blk/blu should go to the lower side (voltage) of the ballast resisitor.

the blk/grn will go to the +side coil.

this completes the circut to cut the voltage/current to the coil as Pertronix or POINTS want a low current otherwise the points will burn up. Pertronix want under 4 amps that means about 3 ohms.

PS the blk/grn and blk/blu are shorted(C clipped) under the tape a few inches . so if these wires are swapped from the ballast or +coil, its still OK.

[metalmonkey47]

Alright... here's my steps for my install.

 

 

 

 

 

A: Mark rotor location and pull dizzy.

B: Install new dizzy with rotor in the same position,.

C: Remote ignitior dizzy has the same color code on the pickup as the matchbox, so the pickup was wired into the matchbox identical.

D: Wired (C to'-') and (B to '+') and 12V ign from ballast was wired into a new EI coil @ the '+'

 

 

I've gone through 3 spare coils (one known good coil) and still no spark from the coil.

 

 

 

I disassembled the dizzy yesterday to clean up some rust on the magnet, but reset everything to its original position.

[metalmonkey47]

Okay, just did a few things...

 

 

I have 12V @ '+' on coil.

 

Coil primary and secondary both test within spec.

 

Wiring is all correct..

 

Thinking I may have a coincidentally bad module? Doubt it... but... I may go pick up a HEI module in a short bit and try it out.

 

 

 

[DanielC]

Take the distributer off the engine, and take the coil out of the car, also.

Hook them up on bench, just like your diagram, hook up to battery positive.

Hook up an old spark plug, with fairly wide gap to the high voltage out of the coil.

Connect the base of the spark plug to battery negative.

Hook the base of the distributer to battery negative.

 

Spin the distributer by hand. It should spark.

[metalmonkey47]

Take the distributer off the engine, and take the coil out of the car, also.

Hook them up on bench, just like your diagram, hook up to battery positive.

Hook up an old spark plug, with fairly wide gap to the high voltage out of the coil.

Connect the base of the spark plug to battery negative.

Hook the base of the distributer to battery negative.

 

Spin the distributer by hand. It should spark.

 

That's an excellent idea.

 

I've gotta make some time tomorrow afternoon after work to do that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another thought, I'm using the matchbox module on a remote ignitor box, so it's not mounted to the dizzy. Is it 100% necessary to have the back of the box grounded for the coil to fire? That's the only thing I never did

 

 

 

nvm... mike wins the prize!

 

Absolutely needs to be grounded. Probably good enough through the mounting bolts but if there is a ground terminal run a wire to a block bolt.

[ggzilla]

You need THREE wires on the Coil + terminal if not using the Resistor

 

* Distributor B wire

* Wiring harness IGN (B/W wire?)

* Wiring harness START (B/L or L/R wire?)

 

Otherwise the coil will get no power during START (unless you have a newer IGN switch, the old ones worked differently).

[datzenmike]

That must be it. I just used the IGN wire on my 620 and it worked a matchbox. My '76 710 I have wired the same way and it will crank and crank and as soon as I let up on the key, it fires. Note to self... add in the START wire.

[metalmonkey47]

You need THREE wires on the Coil + terminal if not using the Resistor

 

* Distributor B wire

* Wiring harness IGN (B/W wire?)

* Wiring harness START (B/L or L/R wire?)

 

Otherwise the coil will get no power during START (unless you have a newer IGN switch, the old ones worked differently).

That's interesting. I have a new ign switch, but I wonder if I have two issues with it

[ggzilla]

No worries, just do like Hainz said and add in the Start wire. "New" aftermarket may not be like new Nissan.

[wayno]

If you think that there is no power to the dizzy while cranking, just make a jumper from the positive side of the battery to the positive side of the coil(hot wiring it), and hit the starter, if it is the same as before, no spark, then you have other issues, if it starts, then you know what is wrong.

[yello620]

Another thought, I'm using the matchbox module on a remote ignitor box, so it's not mounted to the dizzy. Is it 100% necessary to have the back of the box grounded for the coil to fire? That's the only thing I never did

 

 

I do beleive that the black box must be grounded for it to work.

[ggzilla]

Yes, it is 100% necessary to ground the matchbox, which is normally done by bolting it to the distributor.

[DanielC]

You must ground the distributer for the coil to spark.

 

Every ignition system I know of works the same way. An electric current is made to flow in a coil of wire. This creates a magnetic field, as long as the current is flowing. When it is time for the spark plug to fire, the current is switched off, the magnetic field collapses, and that energy from the magnetic field has to go somewhere. It goes to the spark plug.

In the beginning, the switch was a pair of points. The black box on the side of the EI distributer is just a switch. More modern cars have an ignition coil on the spark plug, and a computer somewhere else switches off the current in the coil, and the spark plug fires. Even an old lawnmower, with a magneto uses a magnet, moving by a coil of wire to create a current, that a switch, a set of points opens and stops the current, to creates a spark.

 

Think of a point type ignition system. You apply power to the positive side of the coil. The power goes through the coil, and to the points. If the points are closed, the current flows through the coil, and the points, and to ground.

The matchbox just replaces the points. It has to be grounded also.

[metalmonkey47]

SHES RUNNING!

 

And yeah, it was the ground for the ign box I feel dumb for forgetting that, but I'm glad I was able to figure it out without too much hassle. Learning experience!!!

 

 

 

 

To be honest, I'm not too happy with the results. It doesn't run any better with EI then with points. I didn't really notice any difference in power. Theres a little more torque, but that's about it. Although, it did run pretty damn good before.

 

I'll post pics of my setup tomorrow.

Edited January 8, 2012 by metalmonkey47

[datzenmike]

A good running points system is really hard to beat. The EI system can be more subtle. You won't notice that you haven't had to replace or clean the points fre 5-10 K miles and then it dawns on you that it still runs greats. You may notice that it starts and runs good all the time and not just in the summer. You may notice that it starts faster now. The timing never needs to be touched. Plugs run cleaner. All these things are very easy to get used to and you soon forget what a pain the points were.

 

Have you increased the plug gap to between 0.038-0.042"?? to take advantage of the increased spark power???

[DanielC]

Given proper tuneups, every 3,000 miles, points work fine. Like DMike said, increase your plug gap slightly.

There will also be a difference in the advance curves of the newer distributer, and the advance curve in the original distributer, there could be some gains there, also.

[ggzilla]

Here's what the conversion article says:

Question: Is it reasonable to expect a (slight) increase in power?

 

Answer: No. Just expect top spark performance, but no horsepower increase (unless you had a spark problem with the old ignition system).

 

 

Electronic Ignition will make your engine run at peak spark month after month with none of the losses that points have as they wear. Thus you should get performance equivalent to a newly installed and correctly adjusted set of points. Add to that differing vacuum and mechanical advance curves and the difference is probably a wash. However if your tune was marginal before it may pick up a few HP -- but so would new points and properly adjusted fuel mixture w/o Electronic Ignition.

 

You are buying reliability and consistent performance. As Mike says if you regap the plugs to match the high-energy coil you shoud feel a smoother idle -- if set to the factory lean settings. If you richened up the mixture you may not notice any difference from the hotter spark.

[metalmonkey47]

Here's what the conversion article says:

 

 

You are buying reliability and consistent performance. As Mike says if you regap the plugs to match the high-energy coil you shoud feel a smoother idle -- if set to the factory lean settings. If you richened up the mixture you may not notice any difference from the hotter spark.

 

Well, as you guys said, the power increase was invisible. But I am happy to announce it's been reliably running without skipping a beat. I used to have to warm up the truck a little bit when it was cold out, but now I can hop in, and go after a min of running to warm up the oil.

 

I also lowered the idle, since with the points it didn't like to idle very low. I'm very satisfied with how it's running now.

 

 

 

 

NO I didn't gap the plugs, and this brings me to my next question:

 

My cyl 4 plug hole is damaged, and had to be re-tapped with a thread chaser in order to fit the plug back in. I'm VERY un-easy about pulling the plug on that cyl. Is it okay to open the gap on the other 3 without doing it on #4? I don't wanna screw up my good idle.

[ggzilla]

If you have a good idle, you don't need to change the plug gap. As the plugs wear over the next few years, the EI hot spark will still fire them. The points wouldn't cut it as the gap wears bigger. On my 1994 ranger last summer it was getting low on power, so I pulled the plugs and they were 85 thousands gap! spec is only 54. Yet it fired up every time and drove smoothly. That's a good ignition system. I think they were the original plugs after 150k miles.

 

When the weather warms up, bite the bullet and take the plugs out an inspect them.

When you fit the plugs, use anti-sieze and torque them to specs. Then it'll never mess up the threads.

[Laecaon]

Good ignition system sure, but that is the cause of many coil packs dieing.

[ggzilla]

Are you saying that incorrectly gapped plugs can destroy a coil? Mine doesn't have coil packs, still using a distributor and single coil.

[Laecaon]

I dont have knowledge of them destroying coils, but I have known a number of cars needing new coil packs because the spark plugs were never changed.

[ggzilla]

S14 coil packs go bad whether you change the plugs or not. Could it be an urban legend?

[Laecaon]

Haha, well that could just be a design problem...

 

For reference I have a friend who is a shop foreman at a VW&Audi shop. They have noted over the last 10 years or so, the cars that have bad coilpacks also have really bad spark plugs. Could be a coincidence, but I think it is just wiser to install new plugs (such a novel idea!)