Need some help in this cold...

[josh817]

As the title said... The cold is making my battery sluggish. damn thing starts up and runs like a clock when the temp. is above 32º but some cold just blew through north Texas and it's below 30º. It's sluggish and I can't get the truck started before I'm out of juice. I tried to roll it down a small hill and pop it into gear, didn't work not enough speed. Then I just got a jump and cranking at regular speed from an already warmed up vehicle, it started right up. So, I'm thinking there isn't anything wrong with not enough choke or whatever but it's just so... sluggish, it can't get itself going.

 

I have a Weber DGV so I pump the pedal to get some gas in there and I engage the choke. To keep me from having to back off the timing I have an ignition switch so I can crank the engine without having spark and then flip the switch; just in case there is too much advance for the sluggish battery.

 

This is my daily driver so I can't be doing this everyday of winter. I'm curious what you guys with actual cold weather do to get going... Only thing I can think of is bigger battery, new battery cables, or a gear reduction starter. I already got a bigger battery when I was first getting this truck on the road. I think it's middle of the line as far as cranking amps, there is bigger but it seems overkill... $80 Walmart battery, so I think it's like... 650-675 CCA or something. Anything bigger and I'm shitting out $100 worth of battery. just for the winter.

 

 

Need your thoughts.

[banzai510(hainz)]

I can crank the engine without having spark and then flip the switch; just in case there is too much advance for the sluggish battery.

 

What???????????? Is this a proven method for Ezer starting . Sounds hooky to me.

 

Get a GOOD battery and good cables. Or clean them. or is there enought watwer in the battery. Alternator charging the batter good with a load. Get a volt meter out.

run 10--30 wt oil.

 

electronic ignition

[datzenmike]

Then I just got a jump and cranking at regular speed from an already warmed up vehicle, it started right up.

 

Funny how someone els'es battery starts your right up isn't it? Time for a new or proper size battery.

 

I have a Weber DGV so I pump the pedal to get some gas in there and I engage the choke. To keep me from having to back off the timing I have an ignition switch so I can crank the engine without having spark and then flip the switch; just in case there is too much advance for the sluggish battery.

 

Nonsense! Cranking with the ignition off just wastes the battery power. Try without and you might have enough to start

 

This is my daily driver so I can't be doing this everyday of winter. I'm curious what you guys with actual cold weather do to get going... Only thing I can think of is bigger battery, new battery cables, or a gear reduction starter. I already got a bigger battery when I was first getting this truck on the road. I think it's middle of the line as far as cranking amps, there is bigger but it seems overkill... $80 Walmart battery, so I think it's like... 650-675 CCA or something. Anything bigger and I'm shitting out $100 worth of battery. just for the winter.

 

 

Need your thoughts.

 

A good battery will last 5 years (even more) so that's $4 a year extra for winter starts on a $100 battery, do the math. You probably have at least 10w30 in it, try 10w or 5w30 if you don't expect temps above 60-ish before the next change. And get rid of the ignition kill switch.

A good battery should crank it just fine.

[josh817]

The kill switch is also a security measure for where I live... I'll keep it. I originally put it in there for ignition when it was giving me shit a while back. I could advance it nicely while cool but once you ran the motor on a hot hot summer day and you went somewhere just to run in, before the motor was able to cool down, you would come back out and try to crank it over but it would act like well you know... crank over with too much advance and it bumps over and then stops like a dead battery. So the switch went in so it would spin over quickly, flip the switch and start up, if the problem ever occurred again... which it didn't. So now I call it a security measure. Although I will note, I don't sit there messing with the switch while cranking. I only do the switch thing if it bumps over and gets stuck like what I already described. ever since it's been cold and it has cranked sluggishly (not as sluggish as it did today) I know when fuel has arrived into the motor when it acts like too much advance. That's when I flip off the switch so I can now crank it, then flip the switch and and it fires right up. Anyway i won't continue to ramble on about it trying to justify myself. It works for me.

 

However in the cold when it's cranking like a slug, it will do the same thing like too much advance. it's helped before but today it was just very stubborn and I would be niave to think 20º at 7AM before school is a rare occurence even in Texas. :P

 

I will try another battery and new cables. gear reduction starter is on the bottom of the list considering just two months ago I bought a new starter. I thought my 650CCA battery was good enough seeing how some of you guys are running smaller ones. Some bad ass' are doing 700CCA and up because they got a good deal though... :cool:

 

Pertronix ignition, alternator is indeed charging at 13-14V even with headlights on.

 

 

oh and oil, a shameful thing. I run 10W-50 with ZDDP. Which is also... very low on the list of things that I can tend to to mend this problem.

 

PS the shift key on this keyboard is pissing me off.

[datzenmike]

I still say run lower viscosity oil in the winter. 50 w oil is for temps above 90 and not needed in the winter. The engine will turn over faster with 10w30.. There must be or have been lots of Datsuns running in hotter climate than Texas and they don't need a kill switch to get them going. Sounds like maybe too much advance. Try setting at 12 degrees. With the idle speed around 700.

[josh817]

I'd have to agree about the oil but before I start grasping for every last ounce of cranking speed I will try the cables and the battery. I set mine to around 15º at idle which I don't know what it is but it purrrrrs. :) I run as much advance as I can get before it pings, stutters, loses power, or runs on when hot. All 4 of these things don't exist.

 

I'll check back in later this week with what I find. Have to take some tests that dictate whether I become an unemployed naked dude eating cheatoes in a bean bag, or a successful aerospace engineer...

 

AKA finals.

[datzenmike]

Yeah the L20B runs at 12 degrees from the factory so 3 extra will cause harder starting. All motors like lots of advance at idle besause of the smog idle settings initiated in the late 60s. No vacuum advance at idle. Before this there was manifold vacuum to the vacuum advance on the distributor. Naturally there would be low or no vacuum at starting speeds.

 

Try resetting the timing, cheap and easy fix. If this does not remove all of the problem switch the oil to something lighter. Still cheaper than a new battery.

[H5WAGON]

Pic's...? Condition of your battery cables....we have no idea what your dealing with....Not even what car or truck you have.

 

New cables can do wonders...:D

[DOnatello]

I have a duralast gold 78-72 1000cca and 1200 ca That sum bitch would crank my engine over at temps below absolute zero. Go get you a good name brand battery, biggest one you can find. CHINA mart, I mean wal mart, has china made junk. Instead of just looking for cca, look for reserve capacity as well.

[DanielC]

Something is wrong. I know 32 seems cold to people in Texas, but how would anybody be able to drive in Minnesota, in the winter, if batteries quit working in 32 degree weather.

Check the battery cables. Try a different battery. Change the spark plugs.

 

Here is a page on practical electrical theory, and it gets into finding starting problems with old 6 volt Jeeps. It shows how to do a voltage drop check on the battery cables.

http://www.vernco.com/Sparks/id606.htm

[josh817]

Pic's...? Condition of your battery cables....we have no idea what your dealing with....Not even what car or truck you have.

 

New cables can do wonders...:D

Great ideas guys, I will try all these.

 

The dirty details, '71 521 truck with stock rebuilt '78 L20B. Nothing special, no high compression pistons, running pertronix dizzy, 10w-50 oil with ZDDP, Weber DGV manual choke, electric fuel pump, Pontiac Ferrorieriariero whatever radiator, '83 720 internally regulated alternator, under 5000 miles on motor.

 

I'll sit down with my dad tomorrow and check the voltage drop. I garauntee you if I go out right now (it's probably 40º) it will crank over not as slow but still sluggish however it gets me started. Perhaps there is a horrible voltage drop but there has always been enough to get me going? I figured it was normal to be a slug in the cold, it did that on my Z, on my '98 Civic, etc. It's just a matter of getting fuel into the cylinder and getting her running before your battery is dead.

 

 

Curious question, do the cables get nasty within the rubber protection? My cables have at least 6" of extra lenght that I wouldn't mind reducing down. Cut off the old corroded tips, cut some of the rubber insultator back, and have a fresh new tip to clamp down is my thought.

 

One thing to note: with my dirty old starter (probably from '71) it cranked sluggish. I replaced it because the solenoid kept getting stuck and once the new starter was on it cranked over beautifully, much faster.

 

Donatello, how much is that? I had a thread a few months ago asking you guys what brand and how big of a battery you were using. I remember reading that Everlast, everstart, eversomething, whatever the brand is that Walmart sells was actually pretty legit.

 

 

 

EDIT:

Another thing to note that I forgot to mention. I smelled something hot while trying to push my car back. I opened the hood and just from cranking the ground cable was getting hot. I didn't reach down to feel near the block but I felt at the terminal and yowza it was hot, but not the 12v cable. I looked around and found some solder down below that had dripped off. Could this be the root of my problem? I let it cool to the touch and tried cranking again for a split second because the battery wasn't dead but it certainly wasn't peppy enough to crank quickly, and the post was hot again.

 

I've never smelt hot wire or anything before when it's been hot or cold outside. The sluggish problem has always happened in the bitter cold, but the smell of hot wire hasn't, unless if my nose just didn't catch it. Subsequently, I don't know if there has been heat build up any other time.

 

I appreciate all your ideas and more importantly the quick response time! Thanks guys!

[ggzilla]

Yes, replace that ground cable.

 

You might need adjust the choke. Inspect it: if it is not closing 100%, there's your problem.

 

650CCA battery is overkill even in the winter. I have the smallest battery (group 27) and it works fine below freezing. But it is fairly new. Back in the day, a V8 battery was only 350CCA.

 

Use 20W-50 oil year round: it's thin in the winter yet thick at high temps. Remember your oil runs abbout 200 degrees when fully warm, even in the winter.

[josh817]

Yes, replace that ground cable.

 

You might need adjust the choke. Inspect it: if it is not closing 100%, there's your problem.

 

650CCA battery is overkill even in the winter. I have the smallest battery (group 27) and it works fine below freezing. But it is fairly new. Back in the day, a V8 battery was only 350CCA.

 

Use 20W-50 oil year round: it's thin in the winter yet thick at high temps. Remember your oil runs abbout 200 degrees when fully warm, even in the winter.

I was thinking along the same lines as far as battery and oil. I never run anything other than 50 weight anymore <<< incorrect statement lets not freak out. I probably could go thinner if I wanted because I can tell when the pressure relief valve opens (55-60psi right?) which is right around... hell probably 2000 RPM when warm. Cruise all day @55-60PSI and after 3 hours of 70MPH it idles at 30-35PSI.

 

My choke has never closed any of throttle plates... I see at my fathers shop that it closes two square plates at the top but mine doesn't do that... It opens the throttle plates down below to give you fast idle. I assume it's richening the mixture too because if you pull it too much it starts coughing and shit. If you want to make your truck sound like shi... woops I meant sound mean, then just give it too much choke. :D

[lil89ram50]

Something is wrong. I know 32 seems cold to people in Texas, but how would anybody be able to drive in Minnesota, in the winter, if batteries quit working in 32 degree weather.

Check the battery cables. Try a different battery. Change the spark plugs.

 

Here is a page on practical electrical theory, and it gets into finding starting problems with old 6 volt Jeeps. It shows how to do a voltage drop check on the battery cables.

http://www.vernco.com/Sparks/id606.htm

 

 

well i live in north dakota, and as long as you drive the vehicle every day or 2, the battery will be fine. and thats when its way below zero.

[ggzilla]

I never run anything other than 50 weight anymore

 

That's a bad idea in winter as 50 weight is for hot temperatures. The best for your engine is a multi-weight like 10W-30 or 20W-50.

[lil89ram50]

straight 30 in summer, 5w 30 in the winter for me

[datzenmike]

First winter in Ontario with my new '76 B-210 and when it got cold it would turn over exactly 3 times. An old truck driver told me to change the oil to 10w. Boom! away she went. Big difference. The 10w30 I had was like tar when cold.

 

Another option is a block heater you plug in. You can also get a battery blanket. A warm battery produces much more power. You can even add a timer to start warming an hour before you get up.

[josh817]

Alright guys... lets not get cross eyed over the oil. I am running 10w-50 now, straight 50 in the summer.

 

Consider the following: after the car sat for 12+ hours from 7AM-8:30PM tonight out in the parkinglot, being 38ºish, it cranked over just fine. Is what we're saying... an 8-10º drop from what just happened today, over a 12 hour period, what causes oil to go from lets just say "normal" to "oh shit that's way to thick". Part of me says no... and this isn't even considering the fact that in the cold, multiweight oil is well... multiweight. 10w-50, 10 in the cold 50 when hot.

 

The connection on the ground cable is bad. I know this now because it's loose and today in the dark parking lot after starting up fine, I lost all power, wiggled the cable and all was well and stayed well until I got home 20 minutes later. When I started it up the second time (keep in mind it still cranks fine) I saw a slight spark on the neg terminal from the cable. I will address this tomorrow and then it's a matter of waiting for cold to come back.

 

Everyone I have asked, and as Datzenmike already said, batteries put out less power in the cold... but as ggzila stated, the battery should be plenty big. After all... my high comp. Z motor ran 400-something CCA... 6 cylinders compared to 4, and higher comp. Cranked slower when cold but not too slow, same weight oil. We will have to see, if the problem still keeps shitting on me, then I will do oil and if it fixes it I will come back and not only wash your feet but also rub them, perhaps kiss them if you're into that weird shit. <_< No tongue though, I refuse to do tongue, you aren't that awesome.

[banzai510(hainz)]

AMF Harlys run 50wt cause the machining was so loose.

 

I can tell the difference with with lighter oil when it starts. Oil flows Faster to the parts. I know I uesd to Run 40 wt in another beater I had.

 

Nothing wrong with a 850CCA or bigger battery. usually last longer too.

 

key is On yours besides battery is timming. I notice if a disttributor is off a tooth. people will crank it to one side. its enought to start but hard. then driving its gutless. Might not be your proplem. just j take a look at it.

 

Intake tight. Do a valve lash ck incase you havent done one in awhile incase of a tight valve.

[josh817]

My dizzy was indeed off a tooth however because it has two adjustment plates I am able to set the timing to how I want it without it being cranked over a lot.

 

I changed out the cables to better ones today. Got rid of the shitty clamp style rings and got the type that have the cable as part of the ring itself, so the ring can't be removed. One thing I noticed and I don't know if it has anything to do with this was when I checked voltage I was charging at 14.5V. Last night, with nothing on, I was charging at 13.8V. I got a little worried at first thinking I might have blown a voltage regulator which usually happens if you disconnect the battery while the system is charging unless you have the proper kill switch. Revved up the motor though and it never went past 14.9V.

 

Tested at several points down the line and they all read the same and I also did a load test which read the same at all points. Tomorrow we will see what happens, if it's cold enough.

 

 

 

With that off my mind now I have to worry about my Z... :( I killed the brakes at during a track day so and then I lost ignition a year ago but I never got around to changing out the dizzy. I kinda pulled shit off the car like fuel pump when I was out of money trying to get the truck going. Now I have the carbs and headers off of it, no fuel pump, and no battery. Someone else was interested in trading the triple weber setup for a 4.38 LSD and upgraded half shafts however my father detests. I'm working on fuel injection for it now so I don't mind trading the carbs for something cool but Dad does have a point... it's been sitting for a year lucky stored in the garage. I'm just not seeing why I should invest money into getting it running on a system I'm going to take off when I have the fuel injection ready but I'd hate to see the car sit and rot. Arg!

[DOnatello]

Yes, replace that ground cable.

 

You might need adjust the choke. Inspect it: if it is not closing 100%, there's your problem.

 

650CCA battery is overkill even in the winter. I have the smallest battery (group 27) and it works fine below freezing. But it is fairly new. Back in the day, a V8 battery was only 350CCA.

 

Use 20W-50 oil year round: it's thin in the winter yet thick at high temps. Remember your oil runs abbout 200 degrees when fully warm, even in the winter.

 

No such thing as overkill when it comes to batteries.

[dat521gatherer]

I used to run straight 50w in my old engine to keep it from smoking. Remember todays 10-30 has the consistancy of water. They dont make it like they used to back in the day. When I tell this to auto store employees they tell me its because the oil today is better. Yet it looks to have very little thickness or weight to it.

 

I too had my l20b so far advanced it turned over slow. Hated it.

[josh817]

The ignition switch I have installed practically proves that too much advance is not the problem. If it cranks slowly with the switch off, and the same speed when on, then its not spark. I'm still waiting for another cold day. :P

[Rocket Dog]

Texas? Do they have right hand drive there?

[ggzilla]

Why wait? Repair/replace the bad ground cable now.