Best place for a new starter?

[Hardwyre]

So a few times now, then I turn the ignition on my 76 280Z, I'll hear a click and that's about it. I have to strike the key a couple times to get the starter to kick over. I'm thinking this is partially due to starter/solenoid age, so I figure I might as well pick up a new one. I also seem to be getting a reset on my Megasquirt that is throwing off my MAP sensor calibration, and it seems to happen just after I let off the starter. So it's time to swap her out.

 

NAPA has a "NAPA Power" starter for $33 + core. But they also have a "NAPA Power Supreme" for $38 + core.

 

Question is, what's the difference? HRH? Any ideas?

 

Are there other places I should look for a good deal on a starter?

 

Speaking of NAPA, HRH.. is there a discount codeword or something I can use for a discount?

 

Does Ratsun have any discounts with any local stores?

[metalmonkey47]

That's cheap. Buy it from Napa

[ggzilla]

The difference is 5 bucks

 

The click can have more than one cause. I've worked on several Datsuns where it was the Ignition Switch contacts. Test it first.

[HRH]

The more expensive (lifetime warranty) is much better than the standard 3 year warranty reman. Problem is all the lifetimes are back east, and will neccessitate freight charges to get to you. Reason being, almost no one will buy the better version of start for such an old vehicle, except us ratsuners.

 

The '79 280zx gear reduction starters are 71 and 79, and the same applies. Lifetime starters are all back east. 3 year warranties on either that one or the one you looked up that is non gear reduction are available in Portland and Seattle.

 

I'm not saying the 3 years are crap mind you, but they are tested and only the bad components are replaced, whereas the lifetime version everything is replaced regardless so only the housing is used.

 

Yes, there are discounts, but it depends on where you are. If you're over here, I'll hook you up. As for other places, you just have to establish a better relationship with your NAPA guy, and bitch about the price occasionally. ;)

[Hardwyre]

The more expensive (lifetime warranty) is much better than the standard 3 year warranty reman. Problem is all the lifetimes are back east, and will neccessitate freight charges to get to you. Reason being, almost no one will buy the better version of start for such an old vehicle, except us ratsuners.

 

The '79 280zx gear reduction starters are 71 and 79, and the same applies. Lifetime starters are all back east. 3 year warranties on either that one or the one you looked up that is non gear reduction are available in Portland and Seattle.

 

I'm not saying the 3 years are crap mind you, but they are tested and only the bad components are replaced, whereas the lifetime version everything is replaced regardless so only the housing is used.

 

Yes, there are discounts, but it depends on where you are. If you're over here, I'll hook you up. As for other places, you just have to establish a better relationship with your NAPA guy, and bitch about the price occasionally. ;)

 

Damn, can't I just make an order through you and have you get it shipped to my store? :D

 

So, I've always been a bit fuzzy on gear-reduction starters, so I looked it up finally. Interesting. Using a high-speed, lower current motor with a torque multiplying gear to keep from having to use so many amps when cranking. Sounds gorgeous.

 

Are you saying the 1979 ZX used a GR starter standard? *searches NAPA* and surely enough it does... and it's $80 instead of $40. Oip!

 

 

 

It is a neat looking little thing though. And it should be a direct fit since both cars use the L28 block, ya think?

[datsunaholic]

The GR starter is direct fit. Heck, fits right on my truck's L20B.

[Willdatsun]

Those gear reduction ones do sound cool but I wonder if they actually crank the engine slower than a old skool type. Bearing in mind Datsuns tend to need a bit of a spin on a hot start due to fuel /vapour finding its way into the intake. These engines don't need much torque to turn them over but they do like a bit of speed.

[datzenmike]

Pull the solenoid wire off and check the voltage when the key is turned to START. I had the same intermittent click, click, start on my '74 710. The solenoid was only getting about 6-7 volts from the key through 10-12 feet of 36 year old wiring. I used this 6 volts to signal a relay (nissan720 relay) to send a powerful 12 volts directly from the battery. Never has ever done it once since this hot start relay install.

 

 

 

1... to starter solenoid wire

2... to ground

3... to +12

5... to starter solenoid.

[Hardwyre]

Pull the solenoid wire off and check the voltage when the key is turned to START. I had the same intermittent click, click, start on my '74 710. The solenoid was only getting about 6-7 volts from the key through 10-12 feet of 36 year old wiring. I used this 6 volts to signal a relay (nissan720 relay) to send a powerful 12 volts directly from the battery. Never has ever done it once since this hot start relay install.

 

 

 

1... to starter solenoid wire

2... to ground

3... to +12

5... to starter solenoid.

 

I have some standard 20 amp automotive relays on hand. Those should work just fine for a ignition hotwire mod right? I've been meaning to relay my ignition line, just never got around to doing it.

 

Something like this right?

 

 

Oh, I see why you'd use a 6 volt relay. When the starter starts cranking, the voltage is going to drop well below 12 volts. Hmm... time for a nine volt battery test!

[ggzilla]

Not needed. If the ignition switch is bad, you'll get the low voltage like Mike found.

 

A new switch is only $20. A new relay is $25. Either one will mitigate a bad switch problem. Replacing the switch is easier too.

 

But your task now is to test and confirm what the problem is before spending money buying parts.

[banzai510(hainz)]

those common light box relays will work with 6 volts.Cheap at the junk yard esp if one falls in your pocket. EZ to hook up just hook it up the the batt lug at the starter for yout 12volt source. then route to the switch. keep it low and near battery so it looks clean.

 

HRH, I dont get this one

lifetimes are BACK EAST, and will neccessitate freight charges to get to you.

 

east where? USA? There are no Datsuns back east as they all rotted away. Most Datsun are on West coast

 

 

Personally I dont think a gear Reduction unit is needed. I have had both .

I just notice the Nissan rebuilds last a good amount of time. But price difference from a stock to GR is HUGE

[ggzilla]

I was wondering that too -- back East?

 

The photo Mike showed is a genuine Nissan relay the kind that's in the relay box on 1990s Nissans. It will work well and used ones are only $2 at Pick-N-Pull. If you wire up one of these be sure to fit a 10A fuse close to where to connect it to the battery. Just in case the wiring ever has a problem.

 

There are a lot of poor quality "rebuilt" starters out there. Used to be the new Bosch starters were same price as a rebuild, and they were higher quality than some of the genuine Nissan starters... but times changes...

[zerow]

Pull the solenoid wire off and check the voltage when the key is turned to START. I had the same intermittent click, click, start on my '74 710. The solenoid was only getting about 6-7 volts from the key through 10-12 feet of 36 year old wiring. I used this 6 volts to signal a relay (nissan720 relay) to send a powerful 12 volts directly from the battery. Never has ever done it once since this hot start relay install.

 

 

 

1... to starter solenoid wire

2... to ground

3... to +12

5... to starter solenoid.

That is the same exact relay I have on my 610. What a difference! Mine had one more hurdle to jump through - the starter interlock switch. I used my SIS to provide the ground sense for the relay, so it only starts in Park or Neutral. If there is any problem with the starter, it is internal (solenoid or starter motor) and I can sleep at night knowing the wiring has been resolved.

[Hardwyre]

Not needed. If the ignition switch is bad, you'll get the low voltage like Mike found.

 

A new switch is only $20. A new relay is $25. Either one will mitigate a bad switch problem. Replacing the switch is easier too.

 

But your task now is to test and confirm what the problem is before spending money buying parts.

Thing is I already have a bunch of the standard relays. I'm going to do some measuring of voltages and see what I can find.

 

It's sad that the actually "switch" part of the ignition can't be opened to clean the internal contacts. Looks like they press fit it around plastic body

 

those common light box relays will work with 6 volts.Cheap at the junk yard esp if one falls in your pocket. EZ to hook up just hook it up the the batt lug at the starter for yout 12volt source. then route to the switch. keep it low and near battery so it looks clean.

 

HRH, I dont get this one

lifetimes are BACK EAST, and will neccessitate freight charges to get to you.

 

east where? USA? There are no Datsuns back east as they all rotted away. Most Datsun are on West coast

 

 

Personally I dont think a gear Reduction unit is needed. I have had both .

I just notice the Nissan rebuilds last a good amount of time. But price difference from a stock to GR is HUGE

 

What I'm trying to figure out is why I've started getting a reset in my megasquirt ECU just as I let got of the key when starting. I also need to check all my grounds; but for just about a year now, I've had no problems. This is new as of the colder weather.

 

 

[ggzilla]

What I'm trying to figure out is why I've started getting a reset in my megasquirt ECU just as I let got of the key when starting

 

Because your switch has gone bad. When you put it in Start, it sometimes gets a clean connection, sometimes not.

[HRH]

those common light box relays will work with 6 volts.Cheap at the junk yard esp if one falls in your pocket. EZ to hook up just hook it up the the batt lug at the starter for yout 12volt source. then route to the switch. keep it low and near battery so it looks clean.

 

HRH, I dont get this one

lifetimes are BACK EAST, and will neccessitate freight charges to get to you.

 

east where? USA? There are no Datsuns back east as they all rotted away. Most Datsun are on West coast

 

 

Personally I dont think a gear Reduction unit is needed. I have had both .

I just notice the Nissan rebuilds last a good amount of time. But price difference from a stock to GR is HUGE

 

 

All the manufacturing facilities are on the east coast or midwest (which is still way the heck east) consequently that's where all the parts come from. They order the most common starters in the most economically priced bracket, hence why most older vehicles only have starter rebuilds offered in a 3 year warranty, because it's cheaper. New cars will have generally have both options.

 

The 3 year "cheaper" starters are then warehoused locally since they'll sell a lot. The lifetime "more expensive" starters were probably readily available in 1986, but now the demand has dropped off to the point of almost none, so no factory orders from the east coast to stock the warehouses on the west coast.

[Nicholas7620]

O'Reilly gives you a life time warranty on your starter, My B210 uses the same starter as the Z. My starter went bad after 18 mo's. I got a new one for free. :D I paid $30 for my 1st starter :P .

[HRH]

Was that new or reman? New for $30 is shit quality. Reman makes more sense. Either way, it's annoying to have parts fail. I wish I could claim reman starter superiority at NAPA, but unfortunately most companies use the same supplier. I'm pretty sure Schmucks/OReallys? use Rayloc or A1 Cardone. I can't remember if we own Rayloc, or if they subcontract to others. Know the cv shafts are A1 Cardone, which are the same as what Schmucks/OReallys has.

 

Autozone (sorry metalmonkey!) has shit Duralast starters and alternators. Most complaints I get is they last about 3 months before going shits up, but they may have improved quality, albeit due to price increases.

[HRH]

Oh yeah, and it all goes back to Tommy Boy. "I can shit in a box and slap a warranty on it, believe me, I have the time!" :P

[banzai510(hainz)]

Defdes(on here and the 510realm,PM him) has one of these on his race car I believe.

I havent tryed one myself

 

http://tsimportedautomotive.com/gearreductionstarters.html

 

 

one thing about Datsuns is you can push start them if you 30$ starter goes out or your 100$ Red Top Optima battery goes bad

[Hardwyre]

Defdes(on here and the 510realm,PM him) has one of these on his race car I believe.

I havent tryed one myself

 

http://tsimportedaut...onstarters.html

 

 

one thing about Datsuns is you can push start them if you 30$ starter goes out or your 100$ Red Top Optima battery goes bad

 

That's what made me realize it had to be something during starting that was messing up my MAP sensor calibration. If I turned off the car while coasting, then let the momentum "push start" the car, it would run fine.

 

I think I'll get a new switch and do the relay trick if that doesn't help. :)

 

Edit: And it makes sense... I only seem to have this reset problem when the car is cold in the cab. Once's it's all warmed up, steering column and all, I don't have the problem. Cold electrical contacts are just slightly smaller than warm ones, and in a worn switch, that can mean a lot.

[Hardwyre]

Okay, here's a video of how the ignition switch "sounds" when I test for continuity across the various contacts. There's some VERY rough spots on the IG(Ignition) contact sweep, and there's a flat spot on the S(Starter) contact sweep. I think it's time to replace it. :) Thank you for the ideas folks.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sFV7oFSgV4

 

[Hardwyre]

I love that Datsun information is fairly universal among the models.

 

This gave me the key for decyphering the letters on the back of the ignition switch.

 

http://datsun1200.co...n_Switch#Wiring

 

They even had an exact description of my problem. They do seem to be opposed to the relay idea, but make a good point about it. If the relay sticks, you're sort of screwed.

 

Ever had the "sometime it doesn't start until I turn the key back and forth a few times" problem?

 

This occurs because the relatively high current loads of the starter solenoid tend to burn the ignition switch Start contacts after some years. This only gets worse. You might think you could prevent this problem by using a relay. The S wire could go to to a relay, and the relay could go from the Main Fuse to the starter. The problem is if the relay sticks, you won't be able to turn it off with the key. To prevent this, you could use two relays, with the main power fed through a relay connected to the IG terminal of the switch. Then if the starter relay sticks, you could turn key to ACC or OFF to stop it.

 

 

It is easiest just to replace the switch.