EI Dizzy Issues

[Xander_42]

Hello everyone,

 

I appreciate your help in advance.

 

Let me start by outlining the problem. I have a 72 510 with an L20b and a Weber 32/36. Recently I (finally) got my hands on an EI dizzy of the remote igniter box variety. I did not get it from a car, I got it off craigslist, so I didn't get to pull the associated parts. But I installed it with a new HEI module and a new internal ballast coil. The car will not fire.

 

So onto a better description of the problem. I know that the wiring and parts are functioning, because, when the wiring is connected, if I pull a plug and ground it, and I then pull the distributor and spin the shaft, there is a spark. But when the distributor is being turned by the engine and the engine is trying to start, I cannot get a spark. My problem is I don't know where to go from here. I've tried jumping the car, I've tried running the ignition off a second battery (I have not tried jumping the car, while the ignition is isolated, I will when I get a chance). I really don't know what's wrong. I'm concerned that the slow speed that my car cranks at is allowing the coil to become unsaturated, or that the HEI module does not work effectively at such slow speeds. I am particularly struggling because I don't understand what the HEI module does or how it works.

 

If anyone can give me some advice I would greatly appreciate it, because right now my 510 is not running, and that is simply unacceptable given how long it's been since I've driven it.

 

Thank you,

[datzenmike]

Take cap and wires off and crank it over to see if the rotor is turning.

[Xander_42]

It is.

[hang_510]

did it run before this?

 

is #1 on the dizzy lined up w/#1 plug @ TDC?

[hang_510]

I am particularly struggling because I don't understand what the HEI module does or how it works.

think solid state points

 

OR: a majik black box that tells the coil when to release its volts

[banzai510(hainz)]

So you have seen in the "HOW TO" section this write up.

Using the GM module?

 

I would just pull the center coil wire and place near chassis and see if sparks If it sparks. then I assume its a plug wire misalinged? rotor not at #1 when at TDC

 

1 3 4 2 CounterClockWise fire order!!!!!!!!!this is a simeple fix

 

olddatsuns.com ck it out.

[Xander_42]

At this point the timing is yet to be a concern (although it is fairly close to correct), because the car will not produce a spark while cranking, and I can't figure out why.

 

The firing order is correct, though.

[banzai510(hainz)]

if your positive power is getting to the module when Key is ON then swap out another distributer. or a module.

 

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/17444-electronic-ignitions-for-l-motors-4-cyl/

[ggzilla]

* The coil -- if you are still using the stock coil -- is receiving power through the ballast resistor.

* But the HEI module needs 12V (not through the ballast resistor).

* The ignition switch uses a different feed when in START -- which bypasses the resistor.

 

Start there: Check that 12V is getting to the HEI while engine is cranking.

[Xander_42]

Alright, the positive side of the coil and the HEI module are getting 12V when connected, but when the car is cranking, they are only getting 9V. (I wonder, does a 9V battery have enough energy to run the system, could I test it on 9 volts?)

 

Could my starting system be kinda shot?

 

Also, I did some other testing today. I continued spinning the dizzy by hand, and watching the sparks. The result was this. At a high finger based speed like I had been turning it at before it produced lots of sparks, but when I turned it at a speed more like the engine would be turning it over, it failed to make a spark. Does this mean the system is designed to work faster (say at the speed of 8 ignition cycles at that same low rpm)? Does this mean my starting system needs to turn the motor over faster? Does this mean that one of the parts in the ignition is bad.

 

To further this line of testing, I pulled all of the plugs to let the starter motor turn the engine faster, but it still was not turning very quickly.

 

On a separate note, I got rid of the only other variable I could find which was that I was no grounding the dizzy while hand spinning it, but it was of course grounded when in the engine. Grounding the dizzy while hand spinning it made no difference, everything worked as I expected.

 

I'm stuck, any more ideas?

 

Before the sun goes down, I'm gonna try another kind of coil I've got laying around. (hmm... I wonder if my old Blaster2 is still around?...)

 

Thanks you again.

[Xander_42]

Alright, I just came up with the definitive test (and performed it). While the starter was turning over, I spun the dizzy by hand, the result was slightly weaker (looking) and less frequent spark (which could have been caused by the awkward positioning of me), but, the ignition system was able to generate a spark while cranking. What this test says to me is that my engine is turning to slowly for the system to work. So what is the solution? Do I need to get the correct remote igniter? Do I need to get a more powerful battery, a better starter, a different dizzy, a different coil. I've been able to figure out the problem, what I don't know is the solution to the problem. Something that poses a particular challenge for me is that I have no money with which to get the wrong parts, or really even the right parts for that matter.

 

Thank you guys for your help in advance.

[Pacific coast Datsun]

Make sure the HEI is grounded well. One side of the HEI will have a metal piece where the bolt / screw goes through, ground that side good.On my 620 i screwed it right to the side of the engine bay.

On my old 521 i made a bracket for it..........

[Xander_42]

Make sure the HEI is grounded well. One side of the HEI will have a metal piece where the bolt / screw goes through, ground that side good.On my 620 i screwed it right to the side of the engine bay.

On my old 521 i made a bracket for it..........

 

 

Yup, I've been through that. I've got a length of 14 gauge wire running from there to the engine. I'll double check it tomorrow, but I'm fairly sure it's got a good ground.

[banzai510(hainz)]

Put the old distributor back on stock parts back in.

Ballast resisitor and stock point coil.

If car runs then you now the battery /starter is fine.

But I assume this was fine before you swapped this ,you just wanted to get a electronic ignition.

ALL ESLE FAILS DO THE ABOVE!!!!!!!

 

Now when using a HEI system you want a low resisitive 12volt coil. usually its of .7ohms and made to run on 12-14volts. say a coil from a 79 200sx or a MSD Blaster 2 will work. If you bought a 3 ohm coil , yes it might be hard to start.This is very important for us to knowIf a 3 ohm coil is installed this will cut the Current about over half. So make sure you have the correct coil and the wires connectoed to the coil. should have 2 wires at plus side coil

 

 

Now your test spinning it by hand I dont get. You went into great detail of this. How about where you put the stock wires(mention colors) that where in the car and what you hooked it up to.

Just leave dizzy in the front cover and grab the coil wire from the center dist cap and place near ground and start the car. Is There spark or No spark?

 

Yes during Load on the START postion you might only get 8-9 volts,this is NORMAL. But on the stock point system there is a bypass wire. This will be the blk/blu wire (START ONLY posotion). Now if you maybe splice this with the blk/wht wire (ON position_. it will put battery voltage to the +side coil.Should work then.

 

To get a 510 running all you need is the 12volt On wire(blk/wht) and the 12volt STARTwire(blk/blu which is shorted to a blk/grn) and I am certsain this thing will work if you have the matching/working parts.

 

did you see the link I posted? On the HEI set up. Look at Pac Coast datsun set up. he has 2 wires at the + side coil. I assume its the 12v ON and 12volt START wires.

 

 

So Let us know if this car was even running at all as I was confused ,its been long since Ive driven it.

[LenRobertson]

Now when using a HEI system you want a low resisitive 12volt coil. usually its of .7ohms and made to run on 12-14volts. say a coil from a 79 200sx or a MSD Blaster 2 will work. If you bought a 3 ohm coil , yes it might be hard to start.

 

Is there a way to tell the difference between the two ohm rating coils, like testing with a multimeter? Somewhere I got the idea the IE coils are "fatter", about 2 1/2" diameter, vs 2" dia. for a points coil, but I suspect this may be an oversimplification. Looking at Pull n Save, more matchbox dizzy Datsuns have skinny coils than fat. But then if the last owner knew much about cars, the poor Datsun wouldn't be at P&S.

 

Len

[Xander_42]

The car was running before I did the swap. I started it up, and charged the battery before doing the swap.

 

I could have the wrong coil, I'm going to check it as soon as I get a chance.

[hang_510]

Is there a way to tell the difference between the two ohm rating coils, like testing with a multimeter?

the ONLY way!

[mklotz70]

ggzilla hit on what I would think to be the prob. Hainz gave you some good stuff too.

 

So...the HEI module is simply an electronic way to turn the current on and off to the coil. It performs exactly the same function as the points, but it does it with a transistor and a inductive pickup(inside dizzy) instead of a mechanical set of contacts. It will handle more current than the points so the coil can produce a stronger spark and it will have a much sharper on/off than the points since the points will tend to have a small arc when opening/closing. The HEI module needs a full 12v to operate. The electronic ignition setup basically replaces the points with a two stage electronic switch. The pickup in the dizzy gets an induced signal as the dizzy shaft is rotated. That signal(induced voltage spike) is what goes to the HEI module and turns the transistor on/off. It's much more accurate and has nothing to wear out like the contact tips on the points. I won't go into dwell angles and such...it's cool stuff, but not helpful to get your car running. :)

 

You haven't said...or I simply didn't read close enough...what you did with the ballast resistor. Do you still have it connected?

 

As ggzilla said, if you're getting the ign volts from the wrong side of the ballast resistor(which you shouldn't need anymore if you have the matching coil for your dizzy)....then you won't be getting a full 12v.

 

You can run a jumper wire from the battery + term to the 12v input terminal on the HEI module. Crank the engine with the starter and check for spark at the plug. If you have good spark, put the plug in and start it. If it doesn't start, your timing is off, or you're not getting fuel.

 

If you didn't get good spark, then run a jumper wire to the +(pos) term of the coil from the battery to make sure you're getting a full 12v to it. Check for spark, then try starting again. If this works, then you're not getting a full 12v when you have the ign switch in the "start/crank" position....and this will only happen if your battery is not charged up well or you still have the ballast resistor in the circuit and the wires are connected wrong.

 

PacCoast did a great thread/write up on how he did his HEI module....I'm surprised he didn't post a link.....or maybe he did and I didn't catch it. Kinda hard to read every word when playing "catch up" :)

 

Testing the ign system by spinning it with your hand is a great way to tell if it's working, but once you've done that, your only real concern is how it is working while on the eng. Once you've proven it works, you can put it in the eng and leave it there. Any other ailments at that point are caused by things external to the dizzy itself and need to be troubleshot as a system. Kudos for knowing enough to pull it and spin it by hand!! If it doesn't create a spark while cranking the motor, by money is on it not getting a full 12v during crank. Your ign switch uses two different sets of contacts in the switch itself and two different wiring circuits when in the "run" position and the "start/crank" position. Just because you have a full 12v in "run", doesn't mean you have 12v in the "start/crank" position.

 

Good luck! Please post up the fix so that the next guy with this problem can use this thread to figure out his problem. :) So many threads have all the problems listed but never seem to tell exactly what fixed it.

[LenRobertson]

the ONLY way!

 

Okay, so I have an unknown coil in one hand, and my ancient Archer multimeter (it actually has a needle, anyone remember those on a meter? Anyone remember Archer?) in the other. Set the meter to the ohms scale and test across the + and - post of the coil? What sort of readings for the points coil or EI coil? Yeah, I know these are really elementary questions for you who understand electronics, but me and the little electrons have never gotten along. It's like they know I don't understand them and they can do whatever they want. But I'm always happy to add to my meager store of electronic test knowledge.

 

Len

[banzai510(hainz)]

when cking ohm values on coils?

its kinda hard using a cheap ohm meter they all look like a short when testing.Thats why know where the coil came from. from point datsun or a EI Datsun. Or know the manf specs.

 

Mike wrote;

Your ign switch uses two different sets of contacts in the switch itself and two different wiring circuits when in the "run" position and the "start/crank" position. Just because you have a full 12v in "run", doesn't mean you have 12v in the "start/crank" position.

 

I noticed this using a test light on my car. Compared the ON blk/wht wire when I had the key in START. The Blk/wht wire the test light was dim. But in START it was Bright(which it should be). So In many write up people just hook up the Blk/wht wire but use a /7ohm coil and they work. But other write up they say short the blk/wht with the blk/blu(bypass wire it should work for sure.

 

PS DO NOT USE THE STOCK POINT COIL. stock coil is about 1.2 -1.8 ohms. Book says 1.6ohms.

However it made to run with the ballast resisitor. to cut the current. If run on straisght 12-14 volt It can get HOT and fail.

 

As for the statement on coil size(how big round it is). alot of it can be insulation material for Bling or to make sure it dont short out to ground.

Look at GM coils they fit inside the Distributor.

 

 

Youll get this. your almost there

 

scroll down to the HEI conversion on this link 72wagon wrote up

http://community.ratsun.net/topic/17444-electronic-ignitions-for-l-motors-4-cyl/

 

Note

I have been helping a guy yesterday on the phone. and even then you think you expain soemthing good enough it still isnt.

A guy with a 510 auto has timming issues. They pull the front cover and ck everything. Put it together correctly then find out timming is way off. Find out the Matchbox has the wrong pedastal. But they called me and I assume it was correct so line up oil pump to 11.28. But since wrong pedastal need to drop pump move a tooth. he says its still like 30degs. I said pull the vac hose. Now its OK. I said is vac adv hose hooked to base of carb?he say yeah. I tell him to ck the dist vac adv plate and see if wiggles . He said it goood with tension. Then I ask to make sure the vac adv hose is not to the manifold but to the lower carb. He sends a photo .Low and Behold the hose is hooked up right above the PCV valve. So it was seeing vaccum from the manifold thus throwing the dist way off

[hang_510]

it actually has a needle, anyone remember those on a meter?

Anyone remember Archer

d'arsonval movement

 

radio crap :angry: