'81 210, A15 won't start

[Colbino]

Hope some of you can help shed some light on my situation.

 

Here goes...

 

I just replaced the head gasket on my friend's 210 last weekend, but I can't get it to start. The car was said to be running before my friend purchased the car, but we never got a chance to check as the previous owner had drained the oil to show us how milky it was and that it in fact needed a new head gasket. I replaced the head gasket, intake/exhaust gasket, adjusted the valves, replaced/gaped the plugs, new plug wires, new oil and oil filter, fuel filter, filled the gas tank, replaced the coolant and finally a new battery. The car turns over and wants to start, but nothing. I even poured some fuel down into the carb., and still nothing. I checked for spark, which it has. Checked my firing sequence. Checked for fuel by removing the hose that goes into the carb. and it squirts nicely. I checked the carb. bowl window and it is at the dot, about half way full, and the fuel is clean. I even removed the top of the carb. and cleaned the needles but still nothing. I read that I should see fuel spitting into the carb. chamber if I look down into the carb. with the car off of course, but I can't see any fuel squirting in there. I want to believe that maybe it's the accelerator pump that is the problem but you guys are the experts. Any suggestions?

 

I really hope someone can help!

 

THANK YOU!

 

-C

[datzenmike]

Did you check that the head was flat and not warped? If the gasket blew there's a good chance the motor was overheated, if overheated the head could very easily have warped, if warped the gasket will blow.

 

Overheating will also cause the rings to grind away on the cylinder walls, wearing them out.

 

Do a compression test. This will tell you if the rings and or the valves are sealing properly. If two adjacent cylinders are low the gasket may not be sealing properly because of a warped head.

[sssr20det510]

Check timing could be out, put number 1 on tdc pull the cap make sure its pointing to number 1, also if you do compression test and its out of wack chain could be off a tooth

[datzenmike]

It's a push rod motor, no cam chain.Well, there is a cam chain but it's not affected by removing the head.

 

Dizzy could be off but only if it was removed when the head was removed.

[Colbino]

Unfortunately, I didn't check for warpage when the head was off due to the fact that my friend wasn't about to spend the money necessary to have the head shaved or rebuilt. But would that keep the car from at least starting? I know that if would permit any type of power but I'd like to think it would at least run...shitty. I did check to see if the motor was timed correctly at TDC. There was a reference that said I should be able to see fuel shooting into the carb. as the gas is pumped, which I don't see. Does that sound correct to anyone? Also, shouldn't it start for a second with fuel poured down the carb.?

[sssr20det510]

It should till it burns off the fuel that's why I suggested timing

[ggzilla]

When you change the head gasket, the distributor is not removed. So why would the timing be out?

 

More likely you have a wire disconnected, or the plugwires in the wrong order. Move the crank to the TDC mark, pull the rocker cover. If the two front valves are loose, it's at TDC for #1. If the back two valves are loose, it's at TDC for #4. Pull the cap and see which wire the rotor is pointing to. It should match. This happens a lot I've even done it several times.

 

 

A-series heads rarely warp when they blow the gasket, so don't panic. You can do a compression test to verify if it is good compression. If the compression is bad you either have the valves mis-adjusted or it really is warped or the rings are shot like Mike said.

 

Did you adjust the valves with a 0.013 feeler gauge? It usually won't start if you haven't done this.

[Colbino]

When you change the head gasket, the distributor is not removed. So why would the timing be out?

 

Did you adjust the valves with a 0.013 feeler gauge? It usually won't start if you haven't done this.

 

 

No, I followed the manual and adjusted them to 0.010 cold. Also when I adjusted the valves I put the motor to TDC #1 and adjusted valves 1,2,3,5 and then TDC #4 and adjusted valves 4,6,7,8 per datsun1200.com's specs. I just noticed that their site say's 0.013 cold as you just stated. Also I noticed that TDC for them is 5 degrees and not 0. Is that true? I put the motor at 0 degrees and then made the adjustments. Would this keep the motor from starting?

 

Thank you all for your help!

 

-C

[bonvo]

well if the valves are to tight then there not closing all the way causing a compression leak you need three things for the motor to run fuel fire and squish if you dont have one it wont run how strong is the spark? what color is it? is it points or ei? if its points change and adjust then see what happens

[Colbino]

how strong is the spark? what color is it? is it points or ei?

 

The spark looked very strong to me and is bluish with a hint of white color. It does have EI.

Could someone verify if in fact the valve adjustment procedure I spoke about in my earlier post is correct?

[DanielC]

it has already been said, but here is my two cents.

Compression, ignition, fuel. Given these three things at the right time and proper amount, your engine will run. Millions of engines prove that every day.

 

Since you were just doing work on it, check the compression. Do not assume it is good. Check it.

Do not put the spark plugs in yet.

 

Now, if the compression is good, find TDC on number one cylinder, compression stroke. Turn the engine by hand 1 and 3/4 turns clockwise, if this is the normal rotation of the engine. Put the spark plugs back into the plug wires, but not into the head, yet. Turn the key on. Now turn the engine clockwise past TDC on number one cylinder, and watch for number one plug to spark. It should spark just before TDC. If it does, continue to watch for a spark at 3, then 4, and then 2. If you get a good spark at all four plugs, turn the key off, and put the plugs back into the head.

 

If your compression is good, and all the plugs sparked, your engine should start and run by dumping a little gas down the carb, or even the open intake manifold.

 

If your carb was good, the engine should be running.

[ggzilla]

0.010 is too tight. Pop the cover off and adjust them to 0.013 cold. Mebbe this isn't the reason it won't start, but you could burn a valve later on. Nissan's spec for A14/A15 is 0.014 inch HOT, but earlier specs were 0.014 HOT or 0.013 COLD.

 

BEWARE: Early manuals had an incorrect specification. Nissan corrected their own Factory manual for 1972/1973 and it's been the same through 1982.

 

 

TDC is 0 degree mark.

 

The distributor timing is set to 5 BTDC or 7 BTDC depending on the year.

[Colbino]

got an update...

 

I re-did a valve adjustment per datsun1200.com's specifications. http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valve_adjustment

 

I checked the timing to make sure it was firing in the correct sequence and checked the spark for strength. It still doesn't want to start. It turns over nicely but no ignition. I'm not sure what else to do now.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

Thanks guys!

 

-C

[LenRobertson]

Once upon a time, I thought sticking in new spark plugs was something beginner mechanics do cause it is easy and they don't know what else to do. However, after bringing three dead Datsuns back to life, ones with stale gas somewhere in the system, I realize how easy it is to foul plugs. I don't know how old the gas is in your 210. I suspect the "new" gas with ethanol may go bad quicker than gas once did, or there is some fraction of "new" gas that fouls plugs. But it may be worth trying new plugs, or burn the old ones off with a propane torch, or at least take them out and crank the engine over while grounding the plug body to the block or head and see if you have a good hot spark. Maybe you will be wasting more time, but I've been through this was-running-no-start thing and had new plugs fix the problem. And I don't think cleaning with a wire brush will help. You will need to burn them, and get them pretty hot.

 

Len

[Colbino]

Thanks for the post, Len.

 

Only problem is that I just put new gas in it a week or so ago and put new NGK plugs too.

 

I really think that it has something to do with timing and valve adjustment. I have checked and double checked but obviously I need to triple check.

 

One other thing is that I see conflicting information in regards to how to properly perform the valve adjustment. The link I included above does it very differently from how I have been told to perform it.

[LenRobertson]

Hmmm, gotta keep thinking about this. Was there any old gas left in the tank when you put in new? I seem to remember doing this on one of mine, mixing new and old, and having to siphon it out and make sure only fresh gas was in the tank. But in my case, the old gas I left in the tank was really old - 8 or 10 years. I think the old/new gas mix might have burned in a good running engine, but I was messing with my carb and cranking the engine over a lot without getting it running, and I think there was enough old gas to foul the plugs. I also forgot to mention you should use NGKs, but you already know that. A local mechanic here swears Autolite plugs will gas foul much easier than NGKs, in his experience.

 

But I have a feeling fouled plugs aren't really your problem. The fact you haven't seen the engine running brings to mind the possibility of weird things. I can't remember if these engines drive the cam with a short chain or gears. I know on some American engines, a high mile engine could get enough wear in the chain to jump a tooth and screw up the timing, both cam and ignition. I've no idea if an A15 can do this or not. Another weird example - my wife had a leaky radiator hose on a Ford 200 six. She got it so hot it burned all the oil off the cylinder walls and had almost no compression left. With the plugs in it cranked like an engine with the plugs removed. My mechanic was able to squirt oil into the cylinders and eventually get it running. Good old cast iron head - no worry about it warping.

 

So I'm thinking you need to do what everyone else has said. DanielC has a good idea to remove the plugs and actually watch them fire while turning the engine over by hand. You can see #1 fire when it should and that the plugs aren't fouled. And you should check the compression. I'm not a big fan of sending US dollars to China via Harbor Freight, but I suppose they have some version of a compression tester for dirt cheap. Or check pawn shops if you have any close, but compression testers aren't so commonly found there. You may be able to rent one somewhere I suppose.

 

As for adjusting the valves, I don't think it matters so much what sequence or procedure you use, as long as you are sure when you finish you haven't skipped any. Another thought in the weird department - cam lobe worn so badly the valve won't open. But I doubt this would happen to more than one cylinder. And you could have one or more burned valves - so back to the compression test.

 

One thing - you will have a huge feeling of accomplishment once you figure this out and the car is running.

 

Len

[Colbino]

Thought I'd post a little update for everyone.

 

So after all the kicking and screaming I finally got the car to start. As recommended I did a compression test and got very good compression numbers. 95-105 psi range. I ended up rebuilding the carburetor due to the fact that I couldn't see any fuel squirting into the chamber from the bowl once the throttle was pressed. Plus, I had no idea what sort of condition the inside of the carb. was in. After the rebuild once the throttle was pumped I could in fact see fuel squirting into said chamber. Still no ignition though. Then I noticed that the rotor wasn't pointing too close to the number 1 spot on the distributor cap so I decided to pull the distributor and rotate it counter clockwise until I could get the gear to slide in and the rotor to point to the number one position. After that the car started right up. I never pulled the distributor when I changed the head gasket so the PO must have screwed around with it. I'm more familiar with L series engines than these A ones, so could anyone tell me if there is a similar way to set the distributor in the block as you do with the L motors? Maybe something that I'm supposed to line up upon install???

 

To add insult to injury, once everything was working great and the car was on I noticed water began seeping from the back and front right corners of the motor. I found it to be coming from the head gasket so I checked and tightened everything. Even double checked the headbolts. I knew I should have had the head checked for flatness. I ended up tearing it all down again and took the head to the machine shop. But before that, upon closer inspection of the head, I could see two surface rust spots in the same locations of where the water was seeping out, which verified that there was something going on there. I also noticed that the #4 spark plug was nowhere near being down in enough to ignite the fuel in the chamber. It was about an inch shallow compared to the other plugs and it was seated in all the way. It turns out that the PO also cross threaded the #4 spark plug threads!

 

After speaking with the machinist he did verify that the head was not flat and that the #4 spark plug threads were cross threaded. He quoted me $80 bucks to fix it all. Now I just need to put it all back together...again!

 

P.s. I really need to lower this thing. I was thinking about cutting the rear springs but I'm not sure what to do about the front. Would anyone know how much I would need to cut off the spring to lower the car two inches? And when cutting the spring does one measure from the end of the spring straight down two inches or down and around the coil itself?

 

Thank you to everyone who has given me advice!

 

-CH

[datzenmike]

As recommended I did a compression test and got very good compression numbers. 95-105 psi range.

 

95-105 isn't very good at all. 150 would be .... meh (ok) 120 would be time to start thinking of a rebuild. As long as the numbers are even it will run quite well even that low.

 

This was on a warm motor with a well charged battery? The compression tester was the kind that you screw in like a apark plug?

 

Next time 4-5 squirts of engine oil in each cylinder and re test. If the compression does not go up much suspect worn and poorly sealing valves. If it jumps up conciderably then the rings are worn. Too bad the head is off

 

Always start threading a spark plug by hand.

[Colbino]

For some reason I thought the A series motors were supposed to be in the 90psi range.

Anyway, the compression tester was the type that you screw into the spark plug hole. I did the test cold. I'm familiar with squirting oil into the chamber but I wasn't familiar with doing the test with the engine warm.

[turbojunker]

 

 

P.s. I really need to lower this thing. I was thinking about cutting the rear springs but I'm not sure what to do about the front. Would anyone know how much I would need to cut off the spring to lower the car two inches? And when cutting the spring does one measure from the end of the spring straight down two inches or down and around the coil itself?

 

Thank you to everyone who has given me advice!

 

-CH

 

Somewhere on here I read to cut the fronts to where they just fit on the struts without a compressor. On my car that wound up being 2.5 coils. I forgot to measure after I finished so I don't know the amount of drop I got, but it looks way better.

[datzenmike]

A warm engine has tighter clearances and the readings will be higher. Doing the oil test would have indicated whether the valves were at fault. They could have been re-newed while the head was off.