720 5-speed noise clutch engaged

[matrophy]

I have a sort of whining noise that I hear in the 5-speed transmission in my 86 2WD when I'm moving. It goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed and being in neutral or in gear doesn't change the noise. It's always there with the clutch disengaged.

 

It's not real loud but it does get louder when I am moving.

I thought it was similar to a noise I had on another vehicle from the speedo cable.

I replaced the speedo cable yesterday and eliminated that as the cause.

I have no idea if some amount of noise from the tranny is normal but I suspect that it is not

 

I did some googling and it sounds like the consensus is that this is either the pilot bushing but more likely the 'input shaft bearing' and I have no idea what that is or of it can be repaired as a DIY project.

[Draker]

16 minutes ago, matrophy said:

I have a sort of whining noise that I hear in the 5-speed transmission in my 86 2WD when I'm moving. It goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed and being in neutral or in gear doesn't change the noise. It's always there with the clutch disengaged.

 

It's not real loud but it does get louder when I am moving.

I thought it was similar to a noise I had on another vehicle from the speedo cable.

I replaced the speedo cable yesterday and eliminated that as the cause.

I have no idea if some amount of noise from the tranny is normal but I suspect that it is not

 

I did some googling and it sounds like the consensus is that this is either the pilot bushing but more likely the 'input shaft bearing' and I have no idea what that is or of it can be repaired as a DIY project.

sounds like input shaft bearing to me. Can it be replaced diy, yeah for sure. But you need to pull the transmission nearly all the way apart to get to it. 

[wayno]

If the noise quits when you push the clutch in and put it in gear then it is likely the counter shaft bearing, if it makes noise at an idle in neutral without pushing the clutch in or when moving it just confirms it's likely the counter shaft bearing(lower bearing), I have never see an input shaft bearing go bad, that doesn't mean they don't go bad, it's just that lower counter shaft bearing is the weak spot on these transmissions, they put a larger bearing in them after 1984 I believe, but they can still go bad also.

I wrote this article on how to make a short shaft 5spd for a 521 truck, it goes thru how to switch out the front case, so it describes how to take one apart and you reverse it to put it back together, I didn't get into how to remove the rear case as that is more complicated, but if the front counter shaft bearing is good and so is the input bearing, then you will have to remove the rear case to check them bearings.

https://ratsun.net/topic/28473-how-to-put-together-a-shortshaft-5-speed-for-a-l20b/

[datzenmike]

34 minutes ago, matrophy said:

I have a sort of whining noise that I hear in the 5-speed transmission in my 86 2WD when I'm moving. It goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed and being in neutral or in gear doesn't change the noise. It's always there with the clutch disengaged.

 

 

 

If the clutch is disengaged then the pedal is down. I assume you meant " It's always there with the clutch engaged. (pedal up)

 

A pilot bushing won't make any noise when the clutch pedal is up because it's turning the same speed as the input shaft on the transmission.

 

This is obviously a bearing in the transmission almost always the lower front counter bearing.

 

About all you can do is check and top up the oil. If really low and you top it up it may quieten but this is a hail Mary.

 

 

[matrophy]

Thanks all. I meant engaged when referring to when the clutch pedal is depressed and when the noise goes away. I haven't checked the oil level in a while so I'll do that and see how long I can go. With just finishing the rebuild of steering and front suspension, mama won't be too thrilled to hear that I need a new tranny. This sounds like a repair that's beyond my DIY capabilities. Anyone know a good place in the PNW (Oregon specifically) to get a rebuilt tranny?

[Crashtd420]

47 minutes ago, matrophy said:

Thanks all. I meant engaged when referring to when the clutch pedal is depressed and when the noise goes away. I haven't checked the oil level in a while so I'll do that and see how long I can go. With just finishing the rebuild of steering and front suspension, mama won't be too thrilled to hear that I need a new tranny. This sounds like a repair that's beyond my DIY capabilities. Anyone know a good place in the PNW (Oregon specifically) to get a rebuilt tranny?

Honestly if it's the bearing I'm thinking it's probably the easiest one to replace...

You do have to take the case off but all the internals pretty much stay together.. I believe the one they are referring to would be the first bearing under the front cover.. the other bearing can be tricky but that one's not bad.... 

[datzenmike]

1 hour ago, matrophy said:

Thanks all. I meant engaged when referring to when the clutch pedal is depressed and when the noise goes away. I haven't checked the oil level in a while so I'll do that and see how long I can go. 

 

Engaged means together. When the pedal up the pressure plate is gripping the clutch disc. They are engaged.

[matrophy]

55 minutes ago, Crashtd420 said:

Honestly if it's the bearing I'm thinking it's probably the easiest one to replace...

You do have to take the case off but all the internals pretty much stay together.. I believe the one they are referring to would be the first bearing under the front cover.. the other bearing can be tricky but that one's not bad.... 

As I look at this and also after looking at wayno's tutorial it seems like maybe I should take a look at the bearings in the front and see if any of them are bad before I drop a lot of money on a rebuilt tranny. 

 

I wanted some clarity on what you said here:  I believe the one they are referring to would be the first bearing under the front cover.. the other bearing can be tricky but that one's not bad.... 

Is the 'first' bearing the Counter shaft bearing or the input shaft bearing. Which other bearing is tricky?

[matrophy]

9 minutes ago, datzenmike said:

 

Engaged means together. When the pedal up the pressure plate is gripping the clutch disc. They are engaged.

i have a mental block apparently. Maybe I'm thinking engaged is when my leg engages with the pedal...

[matrophy]

3 hours ago, wayno said:

If the noise quits when you push the clutch in and put it in gear then it is likely the counter shaft bearing, if it makes noise at an idle in neutral without pushing the clutch in or when moving it just confirms it's likely the counter shaft bearing(lower bearing), I have never see an input shaft bearing go bad, that doesn't mean they don't go bad, it's just that lower counter shaft bearing is the weak spot on these transmissions, they put a larger bearing in them after 1984 I believe, but they can still go bad also.

I wrote this article on how to make a short shaft 5spd for a 521 truck, it goes thru how to switch out the front case, so it describes how to take one apart and you reverse it to put it back together, I didn't get into how to remove the rear case as that is more complicated, but if the front counter shaft bearing is good and so is the input bearing, then you will have to remove the rear case to check them bearings.

https://ratsun.net/topic/28473-how-to-put-together-a-shortshaft-5-speed-for-a-l20b/

From looking at your tutorial it seems like I should at least take a look at those 2 front bearings to see if there is anything wrong with them before I drop some serious $$ on a rebuilt tranny. The lower bearing looks like it comes off pretty easily. Is the input shaft bearing as easy to remove do you know? Would there be a possibility that I would need a different shim when reassembling?

[datzenmike]

10 minutes ago, matrophy said:

i have a mental block apparently. Maybe I'm thinking engaged is when my leg engages with the pedal...

 

It's ok.

 

I had to modify a gear puller but it came off ok. The new gear is probably a 62mm but if it was swapped a 56mm. They were $12 CDN for the Nachi bearing from Japan. It will probably make some noise for a long time but when it lets go then you have a problem.

 

[wayno]

You use the same shim unless it was ruined.

[Crashtd420]

11 hours ago, matrophy said:

As I look at this and also after looking at wayno's tutorial it seems like maybe I should take a look at the bearings in the front and see if any of them are bad before I drop a lot of money on a rebuilt tranny. 

 

I wanted some clarity on what you said here:  I believe the one they are referring to would be the first bearing under the front cover.. the other bearing can be tricky but that one's not bad.... 

Is the 'first' bearing the Counter shaft bearing or the input shaft bearing. Which other bearing is tricky?

I dont remember names of the bearings regarding location....

But if you look at the picture Mike posted basically those 2 bearings are easy to get at and the ones I was referring to.... I believe there are another 3 or 4 in the transmission.... those need the gears, syncros, and other stuff removed to get at.... 

It was over a year ago since I did mine but I do have pictures if you need but if you read waynos write up he explains it better and posted plenty of pics....

 

[matrophy]

6 hours ago, Crashtd420 said:

I dont remember names of the bearings regarding location....

But if you look at the picture Mike posted basically those 2 bearings are easy to get at and the ones I was referring to.... I believe there are another 3 or 4 in the transmission.... those need the gears, syncros, and other stuff removed to get at.... 

It was over a year ago since I did mine but I do have pictures if you need but if you read waynos write up he explains it better and posted plenty of pics....

 

Thanks. Those 2 bearings look like they would be "easy" to take a look at. 

[datzenmike]

14 hours ago, wayno said:

You use the same shim unless it was ruined.

 

This shim is a select fit and should work if all you do is look and put it back together. If you replace the counter bearing you should really take a measurement and compare it to a shim chart. I swapped a counter bearing and measured it and it fell withing spec. It might not always.

[matrophy]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 

This shim is a select fit and should work if all you do is look and put it back together. If you replace the counter bearing you should really take a measurement and compare it to a shim chart. I swapped a counter bearing and measured it and it fell withing spec. It might not always.

That's what I was asking and there is a shim chart in my Haynes manual.

I no longer trust RockAuto so I want to look elsewhere for the bearings that I need and I want to be able to identify my transmission to help ensure that I get the right parts first thing.

I gather that there are no markings on the tranny identifying the version and it's a matter of identifying by look?

I took what measurements I could think of based on my searching while I was checking my oil (which sadly is nice and clean and not low) Mine is 26" long and the speedo clamp is at 6:00. It looks like there are probably only 2 possible versions - FS5W71B or C, right? I tried to measure the height of the tranny so I could do the math and see how much clearance I need to drop it using a jack with an adaptor. I think I got around 16" which makes me wonder if my jack stands will go high enough to be able to roll the tranny out on the jack. The top 2 bolts to the engine look like they might be challenging to get out/in. 

[datzenmike]

Speedometer on the shorty is to the driver's side. Herd to see but just forward of the mount

 

[matrophy]

Mine is on driver's side. Do you happen to know the OEM P/N for these 2 bearings?

[wayno]

2 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

This shim is a select fit and should work if all you do is look and put it back together. If you replace the counter bearing you should really take a measurement and compare it to a shim chart. I swapped a counter bearing and measured it and it fell withing spec. It might not always.

 

Well I have never since figuring out the front cases are interchangeable ever measured any cluster gear bearing shim, they all appear to be the same shim and I have taken apart dozens of these transmissions over the last 15+ years, except for the work truck I don't recall ever replacing the cluster gear bearing more than once on any of my trucks, my work truck is different, I have went thru around 4 transmissions, maybe 5 transmissions in the work truck since using the 71B, but I have beat the shit out of that truck for over 25 years of which the first 5 years had a dogleg 5spd in it(went thru 4 of them), it is hard on the transmission hauling a trailer(2000lbs) and hauling a lot of weight in the flatbed of the truck also, the truck weighed 3400lbs most of its life as a work truck, and having 1000lbs to 2000lbs(sometimes more) of wet debris in it and having it have an average rolling weight of say just over 7000lbs is hard on transmissions, so I don't call the work truck a good example for determining if the cluster gear shim was the correct size or if it going out was caused by something else.

The only truck I have that the transmission ever whined(still does) is the 521 kingcab diesel, I had the cluster gear bearing hole machined out to the 62/63mm size in that case and I believe it was just slightly too tight, it didn't go together easily, that was a long time ago and it still whines away, just not quite as loud anymore, or maybe I got used to it, I have put a lot of miles on that truck over the years without any transmission bearing issues.

How would one even measure that except maybe using a plastic crush type gauge.

 

 

 

[matrophy]

6 minutes ago, wayno said:

 

Well I have never since figuring out the front cases are interchangeable ever measured any cluster gear bearing shim, they all appear to be the same shim and I have taken apart dozens of these transmissions over the last 15+ years, except for the work truck I don't recall ever replacing the cluster gear bearing more than once on any of my trucks, my work truck is different, I have went thru around 4 transmissions, maybe 5 transmissions in the work truck since using the 71B, but I have beat the shit out of that truck for over 25 years of which the first 5 years had a dogleg 5spd in it(went thru 4 of them), it is hard on the transmission hauling a trailer(2000lbs) and hauling a lot of weight in the flatbed of the truck also, the truck weighed 3400lbs most of its life as a work truck, and having 1000lbs to 2000lbs(sometimes more) of wet debris in it and having it have an average rolling weight of say just over 7000lbs is hard on transmissions, so I don't call the work truck a good example for determining if the cluster gear shim was the correct size or if it going out was caused by something else.

The only truck I have that the transmission ever whined(still does) is the 521 kingcab diesel, I had the cluster gear bearing hole machined out to the 62/63mm size in that case and I believe it was just slightly too tight, it didn't go together easily, that was a long time ago and it still whines away, just not quite as loud anymore, or maybe I got used to it, I have put a lot of miles on that truck over the years without any transmission bearing issues.

How would one even measure that except maybe using a plastic crush type gauge.

 

 

 

Glad to hear that in your experience messing around with shims probably won't be an issue.

[datzenmike]

2 hours ago, matrophy said:

Mine is on driver's side. Do you happen to know the OEM P/N for these 2 bearings?

 

First the counter bearing tends to be the most likely cause of transmission noise. No guarantees. There are 6 other ball bearings in your transmission

 

 

Input mainshaft bearing.................. 32273-04100

 

Counter shaft bearing 62mm......... 32219-V5201

Counter shaft bearing 56mm......... 32219-E9000 just in case your transmission was swapped for an earlier one.

[matrophy]

1 hour ago, datzenmike said:

 

First the counter bearing tends to be the most likely cause of transmission noise. No guarantees. There are 6 other ball bearings in your transmission

 

 

Input mainshaft bearing.................. 32273-04100

 

Counter shaft bearing 62mm......... 32219-V5201

Counter shaft bearing 56mm......... 32219-E9000 just in case your transmission was swapped for an earlier one.

 

Thank you. My plan is to inspect the 2 bearings and if they don't seem to be defective, recognize my limitations and look for a replacement tranny or have it rebuilt. The truck has 68000 miles on it so I'm reasonably certain it wasn't swapped out already. What is the best way to measure for the shim given that  the range of possibilities is 0.59 mm? I think you  may have mentioned in another thread that the gasket is NLA?

[datzenmike]

If you are just inspecting nothing changes so put the old one back in. If the front case was being swapped or a different bearing put in it could be checked. I wouldn't worry about it now. A smear of good sealer like Permatex Gray will do.

 

Helpful hint.

 

Once the 5 bolts are out of the front cover plate do not hit the long nose that extends out around the input shaft to loosen it from the transmission. Instead use a socket extension and reach in through the clutch arm hole and hammer it against the pivot ball. (

 

 

 

Trust Me!!!

 

 

[matrophy]

On 6/17/2020 at 8:28 PM, datzenmike said:

If you are just inspecting nothing changes so put the old one back in. If the front case was being swapped or a different bearing put in it could be checked. I wouldn't worry about it now. A smear of good sealer like Permatex Gray will do.

 

Helpful hint.

 

Once the 5 bolts are out of the front cover plate do not hit the long nose that extends out around the input shaft to loosen it from the transmission. Instead use a socket extension and reach in through the clutch arm hole and hammer it against the pivot ball. (

 

 

 

Trust Me!!!

 

 

Can I clarify one point regarding gaskets? Are you suggesting Permatex Gray between the front case and the adaptor plate and the paper gasket between front cover and the front case? I wasn't sure and it seems like the distance between the front cover and the front case is critical to maintain.

[datzenmike]

Good point. Permatex on both. There was no gasket between case and adapter plate. There was a gasket for the cover plate but discontinued. The last one I did I traced it out and cut my own but Permatex is fine. There is another called Honda Bond and there are others. The gray you have to let it sit 10 min to begin to set or assemble and let sit 10 min then tighten the bolts. Follow the directions.