Project: '69 521 Z20ET

[bonvo]

Why is it not Nissan's best idea? How is 4 plug better, because it looks better?

 

The dual plug system has major advantages besides the obvious emissions reducing aspect. Dual plugs allow you to run way less advance than a single plug because the burn time is much shortened but you still get the same performance. Shorter burn time means less heat loss to the surrounding head and piston surfaces, more work available to move the piston. Less chance of detonation, a critical factor on boosted engines. The stock timing on a dual plug Z20E head is about 6 degrees, it's 3 degrees on a Z24! The single plug L20B timing is 12 degrees, while not a perfect comparison some conclusions can be drawn from this. Trust the Nissan engineers, they aren't idiots. Ask any serious racer if he would prefer a dual plug head over a single.

 

When you get this going, spend a weekend putting the dual plug dizzy and coils back on and try it then. Bet you get better boost without detonation and the timing plate will work too.

 

Oh, if you are going to run that single plug for a while I would remove those exhaust side sparkplugs and plug the holes. Those electrode tips will get glowing hot when boosting and be a source of pre-ignition.

 

Not sure how much the old style 'batch fire injection' will handle the extra air being pulled in during boost. You should have the Z18ET ECU and MAF. (you didn't say) Got O2 sensor

 

case in point ever look at a top fuel dragster? 2 plugs per cyl 2 distributors

[510six]

http://www.msdignition.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-11032.html

More Nissan specific info.

 

 

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/index.html

 

Just my .02 but you might want to contact the guys at DIY (they helped a friend with various problems with a turbo L6 stroker) and ask them about using a DIS setup for the 8 plug head. I understand that the dist/4 plug setup would be the easiest to wire and with the addition of the MSD CDI may work just fine. It is just nice to have options esp. when setting up an ignition map under boost, nothing provides the flexability of a well setup DIS.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=140291

 

Being that the L series and nap z are so similar an EDIS wheel and VR sensor mount should be a basically bolt on setup.

 

A high horsepower Z18 using all 8 plugs with coil packs.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0427/printArticle.html

Edited December 11, 2009 by 510six

[kaliboy96]

Wow thanks for all of the info! I might consider running the 8 Plugs again I want to see how the 4 cyl cap works first to have a baseline to compare to. The main reason for the new cap was an issue of space seeing how I have to run this MAF until I get the Managment system then ya I wouldnt mind running the 8 cap. As far as the retard in timing during boost how does that work? Told you I'm new to boost but these are questions I am sure need to be answered as I plan on driving this thing often. I am running the Z20 ECU and MAF at the moment and a standard O2 sensor but plan on going to the wideband soon! 510six I will check and see if I need any parts and let you know. If there is anything else you guys can think to ask please do!:lol:

Edited December 11, 2009 by kaliboy96

[kaliboy96]

Another dumb question? What should I plug the cylinders with when I remove the spark plugs?:blink:

[bonvo]

go to ace hardwear and get some steel plugs tha are the same size and threadpitch

[denveratsun]

Skip the idea of plugging the holes with anything else...leave the plugs in there and slap that dual plug dizzy back in...then run it like you stole that suckah!:D

[kaliboy96]

Question? I read that crossfire is more likely to occur in the 8 plug cap and that they tend to wear easy and arent as reliable! Any truth to the statements?

[510six]

Question? I read that crossfire is more likely to occur in the 8 plug cap and that they tend to wear easy and arent as reliable! Any truth to the statements?

 

NFW, I have had two napz engined trucks (82 and 86) and sold them both with 205k miles on them and the ignition system was never a problem on either trucks.

 

The spark plug threaded inserts will be 14mm X 1.25 , which I don't think you will find at the local hardware store. You might have to make your own plugs from metric rod.

 

There are a few ways to retard timing under boost, the easiest is to "lock out" timing on the distibutor by retarding the initial timing a few degrees. Another method would be to use an external timing control box such as a MSD boost timing master that uses an internal MAP sensor and retard timing under boost. They can either follow a fixed timing curve or be programable.

http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD/121/5462/10002/-1

http://www.msdpower.com/product/partno/8981.php?cat=timing

 

The method I am currently using is having an aftermarket stand alone computer (AEM in my case) take a signal from dist/ crank trigger and retard timing via a programable timing map. This retards timing electronically and provides the most acturate method of controlling timing.

 

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/megasquirt_ignition_control.htm#fuelsparkdizzy

 

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

[datzenmike]

Yes I heard that the 8 plug suffers from cross fire but only when the cap/rotor/wires are old. All things equal a 4 plug dizzy cap has more space between the towers and would suffer from this the least, but keeping good quality new cap/rotor/wires on it is well worth the advantages of dual plugs. And dual plug wires are sexy lookin'. :lol:

[kaliboy96]

Alright I have decided to use an EDIS system and eliminate the distributor all together. This way I can still take advantage of the dual plugs but will still have the space I need. The guys over at DIY said to use two Modules and 2 Coils and have them share the same signal. If anyone has a link or thread with set-up so I can see what kind of brackets I will need to acquire or use that would be great. 510six thanks for all of your good info and no I am not overwhelmed I actually look forward to the challenge!

 

 

How do I fit the Trigger wheel to the Pulley?

 

Is megasquirt 2 like an AEM system? Does it control AFR?

[kaliboy96]

Got most of the answers to my questions! New ignition will go as follows!

 

MS II V3

2 x 4 cyl EDIS modules

2 x MSD 4 cyl EDIS coils

36-1 Trigger Wheel

VR Sensor

 

 

For now I will run it with the 4 cyl cap for another month or so why I buy all of the components for the EDIS and MS II.. I am so looking forward to getting this thing up and smashing Hondas!:fu: I will keep you posted and get some videos posted of how its running this weekend!

[kaliboy96]

My baby is coming home finally after 7 mos! I cant wait to strip her down and get her looking and feeling sexy! :D I will be posting some new stuff this weekend! YAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!:lol:

[kaliboy96]

Okay I have a few questions!!! I finally got the the thing started and idling so I tried to jump in and drive it down the block. First on startup I got a lot of smoke which I think is just the AFR so I will have to check and see, but upon the drive I had a few problems so medium stuttering and hesitation then I felt a surge of boost heard a pop sound and the car shut off. Tried to restart it fired right up no problem so I shift and give it a little gas and it starts to die , the more gas I give it it dies! So I dont know what to do any ideals?:blink:

 

 

Second does anybody know the correct timing for the Z20E motor?

 

 

Third does the fuel pressure regulator need to have its own line to the manifold?:confused: because right now most of the vacuum is running on one port i.e. the wastegate, vacuum advance on the distributor, and fuel pressure regulator all together. B.O.V is on its own

 

If the B.O.V is not adjusted properly what affects does it have on the car?

 

Last but not least can someone tell me the width and height of the front turn signals on the 620 I want to use them on my truck and need to know if they will cover factory hole, they look slightly thinner but I need to know how much.

 

 

 

 

Thanks guys as soon as I can get this issue worked out I will be posting new pics and some videos!:lol:

[fo0manchu]

what are you using to tune that thing?

Fuel pressure regulator should be on its own line.

Might be running to rich. Since you have no monitoring device (wideband) check the plugs color.

Could be a lot of smoke just from sitting for awhile. Could be the condensation built up in the exhaust pipes as well. What color is the smoke?

[kaliboy96]

Yeah the gas has been in there at least 7 mos.... I opened the hood today to find that the popping sound and loss of throttle were due to an intercooler pipe busting loose from a loose clamp retightened all bolts then fired it back up everything was good still got the smoke but its white and pretty gassy smelling but the regular AFR gauge is reading optimal( I know its not a wideband I am getting one soon!)doesnt persist though kinda just subsides. Then b4 I could get a timing light on it , it died. Checked plugs had spark checked fuel pressure gauge on regulator it was at 0. I sprayed some carb cleaner in the intake and wallah it tried to turn over. Pulled a fuel line to see if there was gas, turn ignition on and just got a small sputter from the line. The gas tank is a 12 gallon out of a 510, and the fuel pump from an mid 80's 300zx it sounds like it is pumping but I am getting no pressure does anyone have an ideal on what to do?

 

Im going to pull the back off and get a better look but it would be better if I new what to look for!

[fo0manchu]

white is water, bluish grey is oil, black is gas.

Check clogged fuel lines, fuel filter. My buddies tank was actually clogged at the outlet of the tank

[510six]

A "regular" single wire 02 A/F ratio gauge will read in the green at 14.7 A/F ratio which is WAY to lean for a turbo motor. Depending on the gauge you should have the gauge reading rich or red , the A/F ratio should be 11.2- 11.8 which would be a safe A/F ratio under boost.

 

They sell these really cool alligator clipped shielded wires at places like Radio Shack, you can wire your fuel pump to an external battery box or another 12 volt source to determine if your fuel pump is actually running. I have used the jumpers to hotwire the gasoline external fuel pump on my 510 when a relay failed, got me home.

 

http://www.sci-supply.com/closeup.asp?cid=87&pid=391&offset=0b

[Drahzzel]

Timing should be about 8

[kaliboy96]

So I took the bed off today to get to the fuel pump, I notice the pickup tube had been cut a little there was fuel in the tank but it was below the pickup. So i put some gas in and hooked up the battery and wallah the fuel flowed like the nile river! The battery problems I was experiencing were due to the ground being hooked to the bed of the truck not the frame, so i relocated it to a new spot on the frame and now current is great. I put it all back together and tested it bam fired right up! Still getting the smoke though not a lot just enuff to be annoying but its really light smoke. Got a timing light on it at about 10 degrees it idles nicely, but when throttle is applied it hesitates and kind of stutters, the AFR gauge I have shows lean as red and rich as green when I start it, it shows optimal but begins to drop to lean then it doesnt read at all. Fuel pressure is at about 35-40 lbs so I am kinda stumped at the moment. I really dont know how to adjust the MAF it has a dial in it with some kind of tension spring in the middle but I do not know which way is lean and which way is rich, it has + signs in both directions. So where should I start I know I gotta get the wideband AFR gauge, but I want to drive now! What should I do first and can somebody confirm the firing order is 1-3-4-2..... Thanks!

[510six]

http://www.olddatsuns.com/html/tech/620L20.htm

 

This is basically how AFM & MAF work.

http://www.splitsec.com/technotes/AFM_to_MAF_Conversion.pdf

 

Your better off making sure the tune is in the correct ballpark or catastrophic engine failure is a very real possibility.

 

http://www.aemonly.com/wideband-air-fuel-85/aem-wideband-uego-air-fuel-ratio-gauge-250.html

 

A Pyrometer is also a very useful tuning tool

http://ww1.thefind.com/cars/info-pyrometer-egt-gauge?cm_mmc=SSP-_-cars-_--_-pyrometer%20egt%20gauge

[kaliboy96]

Okay here are some new pics of the truck, MAF, Crank Pulley for the 36-1 wheel and the distibutor adjustment, and a video of startup! Hope you guys like it so far. I am going to hold it here til I get the new wideband which will be here next week! If you guys want to know anything or have any comments let me know! Without further delay!

 

 

My baby at home in my driveway for the first time!

 

 

 

$20 Paint job yeaaaah! Didnt paint the hood cause a new one is coming!

 

 

From the Front!

 

 

New engine Pic!

 

 

Damn MAF I want this thing gone!

 

 

The distributor as you can see its locked out there isnt any more slot for adjustment!

 

 

The crank pulley, not a whole lot of room for the 36-1 wheel. Could use some ideals about mounting

 

 

Roll Bar Installed and Gauges mounted!

 

 

Last but not least here is a little video of start-up!

 

[video=youtube;y4jxBhOsRuk]

Edited December 21, 2009 by kaliboy96

[Farmer Joe]

sounds like the timing is too far advanced. thats why it kinda lugs when you start it. it sounds like its runnig pig rich at idle too. id really try and get a wideband on it and get it tuned.

[510six]

The distributor looks like it is advanced, not retarded. I would put a timing light on the motor and set the timing at idle to 10*-12* BTDC drive the car WITHOUT going into boost, if the car runs ok then retard the timing 5-7*. I have no idea what size the injectors are in your motor, with stock N/A injectors (which I have no clue to the size, but very small would probably be accurate) their ability to provide adequate fuel to the motor under boost is limited.

 

It is possible to adjust your AFM to run 370cc Ford SVO injectors, provided the motor runs ok before you begin to change the injectors. Do you know how many PSI the wastegate your turbo is set at? The 370cc injectors with a properly adjusted AFM should probably be good to 9-10 psi of boost . I would ask someone at Hybrid z who has set their AFM and changed to 370cc injectors.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=107517&highlight=AFM+370

[Drahzzel]

Firing order should be 1-3-4-2 and idle speed should be about 700rpm +-100rpm. It is possible that if you are running an ecu from a 200sx that you may need an altitude sensor for the ECU to adjust your fuel map. Overall, i'd recommend getting an aftermarket standalone unit since this is probably going to get too complicated for you stock ECU to keep up with. If you got money to burn, an AEM standalone is one of the best options you can go with. If you don't have much money, but got time and knowledge, you can get a megasquirt and build a custom unit just for this vehicle, but your fuel consumption will suffer a little bit from the fact that it still resorts to batch fire as opposed to sequential firing of injectors.

[kaliboy96]

I am going Megasquirt in about a month! The innovative wideband is already on its way so Im going to hold tight until I get it, not trying to kill my motor! Just for the record tightening the spring in the MAF is making it lean correct? Once I can get the new wideband installed I should see some results!