'72 510 Wagon - Project Spades

[Spades]

I am going to see how much zip the rebuilt z20 with a weber 32/36 can muster. if the car is fun to drive, I will prolly just throw minor bolt on's to the z20.

 

if the car is dog slow with the z20, I will either go N/A or boosted. If I go with boost, I will build a z24 head...if I go N/A, I will prolly build a l20b head...

 

anyway, it will all depend on how fast or slow my stripped wagon is with the z20 in it.

 

I managed to get a little more work done today, and while a couple interior and some stereo parts showed up, the carb and strut still wont be here till tomarrow. I started stripping the last of the interior panels from the doors tonight, and removed the last bits of trim so the empty holes can be welded closed. tomarrow I am taking a half day off work, and while I wait for the carb and strut to show, I will start ripping apart the dash and making a template for the pieces I will be fabbing.

[datzenmike]

True the NAPS head is a cross flow but is not designed for good flow above 5K. It is perfect for a turbo. I have never seen or heard of Z24 valves being bigger than the Z20/22. In fact the Z20S and Z24 intake and exhaust valves are the same part number.

[Spades]

the only reason I was thinking about the naps z24 head is because of the 8 spark plugs...I would have a harder time finding a z20 or z22 head. I am not sure of the numbers produced, but in the last few years I have been working in shops, I have seen many z24s, but the engine in this wagon was the first z20 I have seen.

 

anyway, I may be happy enough with the meager horsepower I can get from a slightly modified naps z20...you have to remember, my current daily driver is a 07 toyota yaris sedan with oversized rims...no torque, about the same horsepower as the z20, and the yaris is 3,000lbs dry weight...I may be happy enough with the z20...for a while anyway :D

[bonvo]

you dont want the 8 plug head it is not set up like that for power its set up like that for smog reduction and the plugs fire at different times now if you could some how rig up a twin distributor setup and have them fire at the same time then we would have somthing

[napz510]

you dont want the 8 plug head it is not set up like that for power its set up like that for smog reduction and the plugs fire at different times now if you could some how rig up a twin distributor setup and have them fire at the same time then we would have somthing

 

But you can parallel the coil together and fire at the same time.

[datzenmike]

you dont want the 8 plug head it is not set up like that for power its set up like that for smog reduction and the plugs fire at different times now if you could some how rig up a twin distributor setup and have them fire at the same time then we would have somthing

 

But you can parallel the coil together and fire at the same time.

 

Sorry bonvo but this is a common misconception. Both sets of plugs do fire together. The dizzy is hardwired to fire both coils at the same time, although the intake side are powered directly from the ignition switch (fusible link) and the exhaust from the fuse box????:fu:

 

Dual plugs allow more EGR to be circulated without affecting performance and even gets slightly better mileage. Dual plugs shorten the burn time so less advance is used, normally 3-5 degrees. Canadian Z24s have a vacuum switch which shuts off the exhaust side during hard acceleration to supposedly reduce noise.???:fu: At the same time the Canadian dizzy automatically advances the timing so performance isn't affected by the longer burn time of the single plug. If the dual plug head should blow the fuse and the exhaust side plugs don't fire, the motor will have the wrong timing for the longer burn time and will run like shit.

 

Yes the dual plugs do reduce emissions but they work better than single plugs even if the emissions systems are removed. Later Z20E ('81 200sx) and all Z22E and S heads did come with dual plugs, so 8 plug heads are out there. The Z20E & S and the Z22E & S heads are virtually the same, most even having EFI injector notches in them. Only the first year Z engines had the 4 plug heads except California which only came with the 8 plugs. Just before '81 or in late '80 they were all produced with the dual plug design. Z20 and Z22 heads all have small round intake ports. The Z24 head is almost identical but with larger square intake ports with rounded corners. The Z24 head will bolt to the Z20/22 block and give you a larger carb, intake and port size. All three heads have the same combustion chamber size with the exception of the '84-'86 720 Z20S Mileage Option motor. This head has a combustion chamber estimated to be similar in size to an L20B head (45.3cc) and producing a compression of 9.5 to 1! The head had a knock sensor and there were electronics in the cab for ignition retard in response to too much knock. Interesting for a turbo set up.

Edited August 28, 2009 by datzenmike

[Spades]

well, if I read your post right mike, it would seem you somewhat agree with my thought of using a z24 head for a boost setup(I can't claim credit for that idea, I gleaned a bit of info from your posts, and it seemed that head was a good canidate for boost).

 

either way, it is possible that the small z20 will be enough zip for me. I got the weber carb on it and it runs good now...I ended up buying new NGK spark plugs for it(the ones in it were newer NGK's, but they were fouled REALLY bad from running very rich), and I also bought ngk plug wires, an air filter, breather, and some other cheap goodies for it.

 

I modified the linkage, and the carb is hooked up and working well(thanks to help from my dad, have to give credit where credit is due), so tomarrow I will be cutting up the stock air filter housing and fabbing a plate and welding it to the factory air box to adapt it to the new weber carb.

 

I already blocked off several vacuum ports I won't be using...I am keeping the EGR system, but I am getting rid of alot of the stuff that went to the factory carb, and I am running a manual choke to compensate for no intake by the factory exhaust manifold. I know the heat from the header helps, but, I wont be using it :D also, I don't have a brake booster on my '72, so that port is getting blocked as well.

[Spades]

UPDATE:

 

well, progress has been slow, and its taking alot longer than planned...isn't that the way it always is?

 

I am stuck on parts, I was able to get the reverse light switch on the trans, new slave cylinder hose made, but the little plastic breather on the trans won't be here for another 5+ days. the good news is, it won't affect progress, as there is still plenty of work to be done. Tomorrow I will be swapping my pedal assemblies and the clutch master cylinder. I was delayed after pulling the engine because I had to clean the mess off of the transmission from the leaking reverse light switch. the engine and trans are all cleaned up, and waiting to be installed. tune up parts, a new belt, and other goodies have all arrived.

 

after I have clutch goodies swapped across, I will be working on putting the dash back together and finishing up the swap. little things that did get finished in the last few days:

 

suspension and brakes are now completely overhauled and functioning, new lines, pads/shoes,calipers/wheel cylinders, new brake master cylinder, new Monroe shocks and struts. The brakes have been bled, and the rotating assembly is done. The dash is completely tore apart and being "reconditioned". The door panels and all interior trim have been removed. Most of the trim holes have been welded up, the only remaining part left to shave is the rear hatch and the fix the dent on drivers door the previous owner left. the engine bay is completely cleaned and painted. New suspension bushings where installed.

 

 

 

so, finally....pictures!!!!

 

 

The top pic is the dash after using foam to fill the cracks. it is about to be sanded down, and wrapped in the vinyl beneath it. The bottom pictures are of the ultimate cherry picker!

 

 

hopefully I can make good progress tomorrow night / this weekend!

[Spades]

I was finally ready to drop the engine in after servicing the transmission (and polishing the bellhousing)...but after the last of the seals and switches were in on the transmission I found new issues with the swap.

 

The crossmember on the '80 is reversed....it allows the z20's engine oil pan to fit in front of it... its a front sump oil pan, and the l16 this wagon came with must have been a rear sump.

 

We were using the crane on my dads shop truck to hoist it over and found that the sump will not clear. darkness crept in, and we had to yank the z20 back out, and tomorrow I will see if the crossmembers are interchangeable.

 

I am tired and frustrated...and left wondering if the crossmembers will interchange, and if they wont, if Nissan made a oilpan for the z20 with a rear sump.

[yello620]

Rock auto shows the same part number for the oil pan gasket for both of those motors.

 

You might be able to swap oil pans/pickup tubes and be good to go.

[Cuts metal like mad]

Rock auto shows the same part number for the oil pan gasket for both of those motors.

 

You might be able to swap oil pans/pickup tubes and be good to go.

 

Problem is that the Z series leans the opposite direction so the oil pan is angled the same way, he'd have to use the L transmission too. Better to find a rear sump Z pan.

[yello620]

Problem is that the Z series leans the opposite direction so the oil pan is angled the same way, he'd have to use the L transmission too. Better to find a rear sump Z pan.

 

Good call ZUUM. I guess that i wasnt any help on that at all. Sorry.

[Spades]

well, im going to see if the crossmembers are interchangable, cause i want to get this car drivable, its been one delay after another, and i really dont want to have to go hunting for an oil pan. wish me luck and hopefully when i get up and start working on it in a few hours, i will find that the crossmembers are interchangable(wishfull thinking)...

[Spades]

Ok...so...just for anyone who ever thinks about swapping a naps z20 into a older 510...DON'T DO IT!!!!!

 

the swap sites that say that this is a direct bolt in are full of crap. nothing is interchangeable, and there is tons of fab work required. to say its an easy bolt in is garbage.

 

the first problem we encountered, was that the crossmember is pointing the wrong direction. I had read that in order to not have clearance issues, you need the oil pan and motor mounts from the L16...I didn't have those to begin with, so that was out...I would have tried to source them, but, I had also read that if you planned to use a naps trans, to keep the angle right the motor mounts had to be from the naps motor anyway. so that means I have a front sump oil pan, and I need to figure out if i can use the crossmember from the '80, which is made for a front sump. access denied! the crossmembers on the '80 and '72 are so differant nothing is interchangable. so, after some cutting and welding...the crossmember problem is solved:

 

 

 

 

Always the optimist, I think my problems are all solved...WRONG!!!

 

Now I will be removing the center link because it catches on the naps z transmission...I could move the transmission back so it wouldn't hit the tie rod, but the engine sits so close I would need to cut up the firewall.

 

I found the naps motor mounts could be modified to fit, but they don't "bolt right in"...

 

Next problem...the transmission bracket is no where near the same...I will have to start fabbing one tomorrow.

 

Did I mention the driveshaft is a couple inches too short?

 

Oh, and the engine sits too high...if I want to put a air filter on the carb, its going to be hood scoop time...

 

I have run into enough snags to keep me busy this next week. I suppose I shouldn't be PO'd, but Bill's Datsun and several websites stated that the Naps-Z series "bolt right in". I am irritated because this swap is almost as much fitment work as swapping in a V8 or a newer fuel injected Nissan 4 cylinder motor...this project is quickly becoming a nightmare.

[Cuts metal like mad]

Those websites assume you already have an L series engine in your car... so they are not wrong. Your application is just different. Your trying too hard... a rear sump pan would have been easy to find. Not sure where in the NW you are but I have all the L16 mount parts... shoulda asked. Too late I suppose. They would have been yours free. As far as the driveshaft... well theres probably something you're overlooking, doesn't make sense that it would be too short unless the car had a longtail trans in it before.

[datzenmike]

'81-'82 720s with Z-22 motor and 2wd. used a rear sump so the steering cross rod and brace would fit across the front under the pan. Don't know if it would have clearance at the back for your steering.

 

 

 

Can you rotate the cross member 180 degrees? Think of the above picture turned upside down then lift into position. This would allow a front sump pan.

[Spades]

well, it did have a L series engine in it before...even with the L series mounts, all that would do is ensure that I couldnt use the naps z transmission.

 

this car was a automatic before, so thats prolly the differance on the transmission mount.

 

and yeah, the driveshaft is about 2.5+" too short...and I can't snug the naps motor to the firewall any closer than it is now.

 

maybe the h190 rear end is differant on my '72 vs the '80, but even if thats the case, I will pay to have the driveshaft lengthened, because the rear end on the '72 was in great shape with almost no miles...the rear end on the '80 has seen better days, and while functional, the '80 has ALOT of miles.

 

oh, the swaybars are differant too, but I can make the '80 fit on the '72, but I am waiting untill the trans is bolted down and I have a swaybar bushing kit in my hands...so no real issue there...just one more PITA.

[Spades]

'81-'82 720s with Z-22 motor and 2wd. used a rear sump so the steering cross rod and brace would fit across the front under the pan. Don't know if it would have clearance at the back for your steering.

 

 

 

Can you rotate the cross member 180 degrees? Think of the above picture turned upside down then lift into position. This would allow a front sump pan.

 

actually, that picture is after cutting and welding. the cross member on my wagon has a weird stud set up that will not allow reversing. the above picture shows where we cut and welded it. it used to have the bulge facing forward, it now, as the picture shows, faces the rear.

 

I will assume I would still have the steering problem, since it is hitting on the transmission, after cutting and reversing part of the crossmember so it now looks like the one in the '80, there are no oil pan clearance issues...the steering tie rod can be straitened and tie rods adjusted to compensate for the added length, or I can build one, but it is just one more hang up that I was hoping wouldn't be a issue :(

[Spades]

I also found I had to figure out a centerlink for the swap as well because a couple of bracket bolts hit the 72's center link. There were also several other problems with getting this motor to fit. I am wishing I had picked a different engine.

 

 

so, now I need to get the driveshaft lenthened, a radiator, build a sway bar and buy a sway bar bushing kit. the project just got placed on hold again while waiting for funds :(

[Cuts metal like mad]

Try flipping the center link instead of bending it... might be easier if it doesn't hit the crossmember.

[Spades]

Try flipping the center link instead of bending it... might be easier if it doesn't hit the crossmember.

 

I didnt have time to pull it off today...it doesnt look like the joints will line up if its flipped, and I am afraid that they will have a tapered fitting, meaning the joints will only go in and snug up one way. the balljoints and the rest of the parts i have taken off have been that way...if I am wrong when I take it off and it will work inverted, I of course wont bother straightening it :D

[Spades]

well, i haven't had time to update the project thread in a long time. I have either been at work, asleep, or working on the wagon.

 

the z20s engine and transmission are now in, and bolted down. after figuring the motor and trans mounts out, we had to reverse the crossmember, straighten the center link, build a fuel return line, custom clutch lines, replace all of the fuel and evap system hoses and lines, cut and re-work the front end to allow for the larger radiator, have a custom length driveshaft built, replace the fuel pump, a fair amount of bodywork and shaving of holes, completely re-paint and finish the interior, fix the fuel sending unit(and all the gauges for that matter), and too much little detail work to go into.

 

the biggest snag, was the idiots that owned the car before me used aluminum foil wrapped around several fuses because there was a short on several circuits, so since they couldn't fix it, they fried it.

 

Almost all the grounds were fried, as well as most of the relays and switches. Every wiring diagram I found was flawed in one way or another( either the wires were not labeled properly or did not have the right colors), so the re-wiring took days.

 

As the car sits now, everything is installed and it fires, but the distributor is toast(randomly misfiring and the vacuum advance is inop). The new distributor will arrive today, and the car will finally be drivable. sadly, there is still so much work to be done....but at least it is getting closer.

[Spades]

well, after a couple of days of verizon site builder giving me the shaft and not letting me upload photos, here are a few from the ratsun site at least.

 

here is what i started with:

 

 

this is the car now:

 

 

 

 

the body work is still roughed in, I am going to primer and seal it, and then attack one panel at a time and get it to perfection. for now I need to drive it though.

 

the motor is still in the tuning process(need to adjust the valves and deal with the rich problem), I need to drop the front almost 2 inches to fix the massive positive camber, and I need to adjust the clutch pedal, make a center console, get carpet for the front, put the carpet I already have for the cargo area down, and build a back seat.

 

P.S. I did manage to keep the project under the $2000 mark...which is pretty shocking considering how many new parts are on it...here is a list of what was replaced:

 

*wheels & tires

*shocks & struts (and soon the front springs)

*new tie rod ends

*all brakes and hardware including master cylinder

*new battery

*motor and trans mounts

*rebuilt naps z20s engine(I added a new distributor,carb,plugs,wires,coil,fuel pump,radiator cap,overflow, & belt)

*transmission(rebuilt), new speedo cable, fresh fluid and breather

*custom length driveshaft(with new U-joints)

*all new fuel lines, repaired evap system, added fuel return line and charcoal canister

*most of the wiring, lights, relays, switches, and fuses(all the gauges had to be overhauled as well)

*seats,refinished the dash,added gauges,got the seat belts working again!

*new lights, markers, taillights, headlights and horns

*new steering wheel, handles, and dozens of interior parts

*new exhaust and too many other little parts/supplies to mention (such as the undercoat and paint used on the undercarriage and engine bay)

[5dimer]

Looks hella good!!!!!!!!!

[fastdadd]

you drove past me a bit a go as i was headed home from work.....car is looking good