510 Alignment Suggestions: Street/Canyon/Touge Setup

[ran when park'd]

Hey there i just had my 510 aligned recently. Drives pretty well straight and in town. It just has a wiggle about it after turns, like a tank slapper feel. Turn-in feels fine, a little quick but ok. I adjusted the steering box (jack up the front and adjusted accordingly, turning left and right to ensure no binding).

 

I daily drive it on the freeway 20ish miles and there are plenty of mountain roads to have fun on around here. Just need more confidence in the steering feel.

 

Car info:

Full t3 coilovers and front end (control arms, camber plates, TC rods etc

Front 14x6.5 w/ 185/55

Rear 14x7 w/185/55

And I've been trying different psi

Front sway

New Drag links

Ermish Idler

Subi CLSD

 

Current alignment specs I found on Dime quarterly or realm I think. They were on a street/autocross car and seemed to have good results from the original poster.

 

Front Left:

Camber -1

Caster +1.80

Toe +0.04

 

Front Right:

Camber -1

Caster +2.30

Toe +0.04

 

Rear was just left as is with no adjustment.

 

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

 

 

 

[Icehouse]

Rear alignment is critical.  If you are close to zero toe in the rear it doesn't feel confidence inspiring.  Also if you have stock rear crossmember bushings that doesn't help.  Do polly bushings in the crossmember at a minimum.  They are easy to swap. They tap out with a hammer.  

[ran when park'd]

5 hours ago, Icehouse said:

Rear alignment is critical.  If you are close to zero toe in the rear it doesn't feel confidence inspiring.  Also if you have stock rear crossmember bushings that doesn't help.  Do polly bushings in the crossmember at a minimum.  They are easy to swap. They tap out with a hammer.  

 

Ok, thank you. I'll replace those as they have not been done.

 

Rear cross-member bushings aside, do those numbers check out front end wise?

 

 

[iceman510]

You said no adjustment to the rear, but did you get numbers of current settings?

 

Jeff, regarding this statement- If you are close to zero toe in the rear it doesn't feel confidence inspiring.  I take it you are suggesting there needs to be some toe-in for the rear.  At least that is my understanding of the norm for street cars.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

Yes, a tiny bit of toe-in at the rear helps the car keep pointed straight. The rear suspension is known to have toe change during it's cycle, which is why many people ran super stiff springs back in the day. It also helps if the control arm is flat at ride height.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

17 hours ago, ran when park'd said:

 It just has a wiggle about it after turns, like a tank slapper feel. Turn-in feels fine, a little quick but ok. I adjusted the steering box (jack up the front and adjusted accordingly, turning left and right to ensure no binding).

 

So you're saying it still has some death wobble now? Have you looked at the front crossmember bolts to see if they are tight?

 

Also tire shape, like the crown of the tread, can have an affect on death wobble. More crown in the tread seems to make it happen.

[Icehouse]

4 hours ago, iceman510 said:

You said no adjustment to the rear, but did you get numbers of current settings?

 

Jeff, regarding this statement- If you are close to zero toe in the rear it doesn't feel confidence inspiring.  I take it you are suggesting there needs to be some toe-in for the rear.  At least that is my understanding of the norm for street cars.

 

Yeah needs to be some toe in, in the back.  On our racecar we just kept dialing in more rear toe until it didn't feel unsettled in the corners.  We didn't want to loose any more straightway speed.  So less rear toe the better.  Now that we are upping our power we might have to add more.  I would do the rear crossmember bushings first.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

So you're saying it still has some death wobble now? Have you looked at the front crossmember bolts to see if they are tight?

 

Also tire shape, like the crown of the tread, can have an affect on death wobble. More crown in the tread seems to make it happen.

 

 

Seems to me like he is just feeling the crossmember bushings deflecting.  You know how the rear suspension feels like it needs to "take a set" when you load it in the corners.  Maybe?  Hard to know without driving it.  

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

It sounded to me like the front lower control arm bushings too, but his list shows that he replaced the control arms. I assumed with some T3 or similar, but yeah, if the lower control arm bushings are toast, you will definitely get a death wobble. Same goes for balljoints and tie rod ends.

[datzenmike]

Aren't death wobbles more from worn steering components?  Friend had a tow truck and it death wobbled at 55 and once started didn't stop till below 30. The steering wheel turned back and forth through about a foot and about 5-6 times a second. His arms were a blur of motion. I was terrified. (what's that smell?) Turned out the idler arm was toasted.

[iceman510]

On 8/5/2024 at 6:07 PM, ran when park'd said:

It just has a wiggle about it after turns, like a tank slapper feel. 

 

Maybe just me, but I could use a bit more explanation of what this means.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

He said tank slapper, which I interpreted as death wobble.

 

He also said it happens after turns. I've had it happen only after turning, and that time it was improper ackerman. The steering arms were not right causing the car to buck in turns. I wonder if he has those "drifting" steering arms in his 510. Those have horrible ackerman.

 

But to your point, Mike - Death wobble is usally caused by worn steering components. You are correct.

 

It can also be caused by loose components like front axle ubolts, or in this case, a loose crossmember.

 

Alignment issues, like too not enough caster. Combine that with a tire that has a huge crown, and you'll get death wobble for sure.

 

Many people say that death wobble is caused only by components AFTER the steering box, and I do not agree.  I've found that even loose steering column or bad steering joints can cause death wobble. Hell, even disc rotors that are warped can induce death wobble.

[datzenmike]

It was a really old truck all worn out and well used. The idler could be moved up and down 3-4" when the right tire turned outward? or inward if front steering. The shaking was very intense and scary but at the same time very impressive. I only got back in it after fixing.

[ran when park'd]

14 hours ago, iceman510 said:

 

Maybe just me, but I could use a bit more explanation of what this means.

 

So its not a full-on death wobble, feels like it could lead to one, maybe.

 

On the freeway, it requires constant input ( I'm used to old vws which is normal to some point), but this is more constant and after correcting it has that wiggle or slight pull in the opposite direction of correction.

[ran when park'd]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:57 PM, datzenmike said:

Aren't death wobbles more from worn steering components?  Friend had a tow truck and it death wobbled at 55 and once started didn't stop till below 30. The steering wheel turned back and forth through about a foot and about 5-6 times a second. His arms were a blur of motion. I was terrified. (what's that smell?) Turned out the idler arm was toasted.

I'm not going to lie, the box could use a rebuild, but I did adjust as much as possible without binding when turning. I've driven cars with way more steering box play. Other than that everything is new and tight in the steering department.

[ran when park'd]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:21 AM, iceman510 said:

You said no adjustment to the rear, but did you get numbers of current settings?

 

Jeff, regarding this statement- If you are close to zero toe in the rear it doesn't feel confidence inspiring.  I take it you are suggesting there needs to be some toe-in for the rear.  At least that is my understanding of the norm for street cars.

I reached out to the shop and they didn't save the rear readings and of course that day they couldn't print them either.

 

I live semi-remote and confident alignment shops are sparse. So I used a local shop that did one of my old mk1 rabbits with pretty good results.

[ran when park'd]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:25 PM, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

It sounded to me like the front lower control arm bushings too, but his list shows that he replaced the control arms. I assumed with some T3 or similar, but yeah, if the lower control arm bushings are toast, you will definitely get a death wobble. Same goes for balljoints and tie rod ends.

The front end is all heim joints with greaseable ball joints. All snugged up.

[ran when park'd]

10 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

He said tank slapper, which I interpreted as death wobble.

 

He also said it happens after turns. I've had it happen only after turning, and that time it was improper ackerman. The steering arms were not right causing the car to buck in turns. I wonder if he has those "drifting" steering arms in his 510. Those have horrible ackerman.

 

But to your point, Mike - Death wobble is usally caused by worn steering components. You are correct.

 

It can also be caused by loose components like front axle ubolts, or in this case, a loose crossmember.

 

Alignment issues, like too not enough caster. Combine that with a tire that has a huge crown, and you'll get death wobble for sure.

 

Many people say that death wobble is caused only by components AFTER the steering box, and I do not agree.  I've found that even loose steering column or bad steering joints can cause death wobble. Hell, even disc rotors that are warped can induce death wobble.

I just said tank slapper because it almost feels like it tries to overcorrect to input (and most of what I'm talking about now is freeway driving feelings as I'm obsessing about it commuting).

 

No drifting arms, not a drift car with a 1600, just the older t3 arms.
 

The front brakes are newish from DP. I went through the front end and did a bolt/nut check prior to the alignment

[ran when park'd]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:39 AM, Icehouse said:

 

Yeah needs to be some toe in, in the back.  On our racecar we just kept dialing in more rear toe until it didn't feel unsettled in the corners.  We didn't want to loose any more straightway speed.  So less rear toe the better.  Now that we are upping our power we might have to add more.  I would do the rear crossmember bushings first.  

 

 

 

 

Seems to me like he is just feeling the crossmember bushings deflecting.  You know how the rear suspension feels like it needs to "take a set" when you load it in the corners.  Maybe?  Hard to know without driving it.  

Yeah, I'm going to addtocart some rear poly cross-member and control arm bushings on payday

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

12 hours ago, ran when park'd said:

 

So its not a full-on death wobble, feels like it could lead to one, maybe.

 

On the freeway, it requires constant input ( I'm used to old vws which is normal to some point), but this is more constant and after correcting it has that wiggle or slight pull in the opposite direction of correction.

I had a Ford truck like that. You didn't steer it, you corrected it.

 

Sounds like the last piece of the puzzle is the steering box. I bet the issue goes away once you replace it.

[Icehouse]

15 hours ago, ran when park'd said:

Yeah, I'm going to addtocart some rear poly cross-member and control arm bushings on payday

 

 

Don't do the control arm bushings.  Poly is terrible for any moving bushing.  They wear out fast and squeak.  Stock bushings in the control arms are fine.  

[Icehouse]

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I had a Ford truck like that. You didn't steer it, you corrected it.

 

Sounds like the last piece of the puzzle is the steering box. I bet the issue goes away once you replace it.

 

 

Box should always be the first thing to go 😉

[Tom1200]

Let's use a right hand 180 degree 3rd hear sweeper as an example:

 

If you turn in and the car takes a set at the 30 degree mark, then an instant later steers back to the left (say 5 degrees) and then goes back to the original 30 degrees.......some component has play in it.

 

The first place I would check is the trailing arm bushings.

 

If it simply wanders like a high profile vehicle in a crosswind check the steering components.  

[ran when park'd]

13 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

I had a Ford truck like that. You didn't steer it, you corrected it.

 

Sounds like the last piece of the puzzle is the steering box. I bet the issue goes away once you replace it.

Trust me, i want to get the box rebuilt, just not in the current budget. Was recently forced into commuting this thing. But it has been nice getting some seat time in.

[ran when park'd]

10 hours ago, Icehouse said:

 

 

Don't do the control arm bushings.  Poly is terrible for any moving bushing.  They wear out fast and squeak.  Stock bushings in the control arms are fine.  

Got it. Thanks.

 

Yeah in the watercooled vw realm, I would avoid poly in pivoting components.

[ran when park'd]

1 hour ago, Tom1200 said:

Let's use a right hand 180 degree 3rd hear sweeper as an example:

 

If you turn in and the car takes a set at the 30 degree mark, then an instant later steers back to the left (say 5 degrees) and then goes back to the original 30 degrees.......some component has play in it.

 

The first place I would check is the trailing arm bushings.

 

If it simply wanders like a high profile vehicle in a crosswind check the steering components.  

I'll have to go search out such a corner.

 

After driving it today, I could feel the tail following after twitching it around. This is a straight-line 4th gear feel. It's also on the freeway, but I won't flick it around going that fast in its current state.

 

However, I took the winding back roads to work. Lots of sweeping connected turns and it feels, pretty good when connecting. The car doesn't want to correct or wonder in this scenario. Still feels kinda soft in the rear. I guess it is mostly just straight and the freeway is the fear factor.