Lift Kits differance 84 4x4 vs 87 4x4

[frankendat]

It is my thinking that new A-arms are necessary for any decent suspension lift on a 84-86 720 4x4. But, my thinking has been wrong before. Would the 87-95 Nissan suspension lift in the attached link work for a 84/85 720 4x4?

Nissan lift kit

[frankendat]

I thought using THIS LIFT KIT was the go to and if the lift kit is used with the torsen bars not completely cranked a better ride can be achieved.

[datzenmike]

4 hours ago, frankendat said:

It is my thinking that new A-arms are necessary for any decent suspension lift on a 84-86 720 4x4. But, my thinking has been wrong before. Would the 87-95 Nissan suspension lift in the attached link work for a 84/85 720 4x4?

Nissan lift kit

 

Those are coil springs for the WD21 Pathfinder rear end. You have a leaf spring rear end.

 

Take your leaf springs to an aptly named spring shop and have them re cambered. This puts more arch in the curve. When put back in they raise the vehicle the amount the camber was increased. Tell them what you want done.

[bottomwatcher]

That's what I am running. The longer arms can create some really wonky camber issues while articulating. Also when you set it to the desired ride height you have to get it aligned at that height and not change it. Tires last me about 20k miles but that takes me 5 or 6 years anymore with the truck so no big deal. Ride is not as good as stock but that may be the larger tires and increased unsprung weight. I have 31s, a 2 inch body and trimmed fenders and still get a little rubbing but that is mostly from wheel offset.

[frankendat]

16 hours ago, datzenmike said:

 

Those are coil springs for the WD21 Pathfinder rear end. You have a leaf spring rear end.

 

Take your leaf springs to an aptly named spring shop and have them re cambered. This puts more arch in the curve. When put back in they raise the vehicle the amount the camber was increased. Tell them what you want done.

Thanks Datzenmike, is increasing the camber on 4wd springs preferable (cheaper/easier) than employing 2wd drive leaf springs?

[frankendat]

9 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

That's what I am running. The longer arms can create some really wonky camber issues while articulating. Also when you set it to the desired ride height you have to get it aligned at that height and not change it. Tires last me about 20k miles but that takes me 5 or 6 years anymore with the truck so no big deal. Ride is not as good as stock but that may be the larger tires and increased unsprung weight. I have 31s, a 2 inch body and trimmed fenders and still get a little rubbing but that is mostly from wheel offset.

According to the internet (Therefore Divinely certified as true) the longer arms provide 1-1.5 in greater upward suspension travel, I thought that would allow for softer shocks--better ride. I would like to run 31's (advertised as 31.7 but exact tires are rare) 235/85/R16.

I am still trying to get as close as budget allows to the look of the desert race truck. (which might not be close at all as functional parts to finish the truck take priority) When searching for parts sometimes a used part I want is the same or less than a new part I need, or so the hopeful part of me thinks.

 

[frankendat]

9 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

That's what I am running. The longer arms can create some really wonky camber issues while articulating. Also when you set it to the desired ride height you have to get it aligned at that height and not change it. Tires last me about 20k miles but that takes me 5 or 6 years anymore with the truck so no big deal. Ride is not as good as stock but that may be the larger tires and increased unsprung weight. I have 31s, a 2 inch body and trimmed fenders and still get a little rubbing but that is mostly from wheel offset.

What is the theory on why you are burning through tires? Uneven wear?

[datzenmike]

2wd leaf springs have more camber (arch) than 4x4 so yes they will lift.

 

Any change, lift or drop, throws the toe out. The tire can absorb small amounts of camber but if you can see it, well, the truck weight is now riding more on the inner or outer tire edge and it will wear more.

[bottomwatcher]

2 hours ago, frankendat said:

What is the theory on why you are burning through tires? Uneven wear?

The arms are uneven to begin with but making the uppers longer really throws the camber out of whack while articulating. Any time you add any kind of aftermarket part longevity of original parts goes out the window. If you do the lift do it right and add fresh ball joints, tie rod ends, centerlink and idler arm. The moog heavy duty arm is the only one that lasts. Now with 31s unless you do a ring and pinion swap or a KA swap the truck will be a miserable slug to drive. This goes down the rabbit hole real quick.

[bottomwatcher]

Well you guilted me in to rotating my tires. This is probably the last rotation for this set. Rainy day in Maine so rotated tires, greased grease fittings in front end and torqued all the lugnuts. You can see the tire wear and suspension. Halfshafts are going to shit and NLA so the yota axle will be the last resort to keep everything rolling. New R&P, LS, High Steering conversion, driveshafts, springs plus all the miscellaneous adds up quick. Then doing the project will keep the truck off the road for a while.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by bottomwatcher
Spelling

[bottomwatcher]

The final solution.

 

[frankendat]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:51 PM, bottomwatcher said:

The arms are uneven to begin with but making the uppers longer really throws the camber out of whack while articulating. Any time you add any kind of aftermarket part longevity of original parts goes out the window. If you do the lift do it right and add fresh ball joints, tie rod ends, centerlink and idler arm. The moog heavy duty arm is the only one that lasts. Now with 31s unless you do a ring and pinion swap or a KA swap the truck will be a miserable slug to drive. This goes down the rabbit hole real quick.

Wow, I appreciate the pictures from the front lines of 720 work. I have the 4:11 CA41 in my 720. Is that a toyota "mini truck" setup for the final solution? I have a set of FJ40 third members that I have been dragging my feet about selling. I was considering them for the LJ20 but mocked it up with a similar sized Dana 40 and it was huge on the LJ. I thought the FJ axles(pumpkin) would be huge on the 720 as well. Is this not the case? I take your first hand knowledge seriously.

I drove the FJ40 with those 4:11's and the 4 speed for many years and it sure screamed over 55/60mph (10-12 mpg). Considered an overdrive but swapped in 3:73's and found it much more daily driveable. I ran 33's which were actually 32's on the FJ40. I do not have a set of 235/85/R16 in hand to provide actual diameter (the desired tires for the 720) I prioritized other parts of my build and the tires I had planned doubled in price. Unless something pops in the used market, I will buy some off brand M/T. If this lift plan becomes untenable 215/85R16 and body pucks is my fallback.
 

 

[bottomwatcher]

Toyota truck axle. Shooting for 4.88 and 33s. The stock are 4.37s. The axles need everything so I am keeping an eye out for a better one or jeep axles are so much more plentiful maybe going that route. There just isn't much room in the 720 wheel wells so unless you go high you are going to have rubbing. Anyways not tackling this until spring got to button up some other projects first.

[datzenmike]

The 'Yoda SAS I used was a 4.11. Not much choice and on 33s it was terrible.

[frankendat]

8 hours ago, datzenmike said:

The 'Yoda SAS I used was a 4.11. Not much choice and on 33s it was terrible.

Terrible in what way?

[frankendat]

11 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

11 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

Toyota truck axle. Shooting for 4.88 and 33s. The stock are 4.37s. The axles need everything so I am keeping an eye out for a better one or jeep axles are so much more plentiful maybe going that route. There just isn't much room in the 720 wheel wells so unless you go high you are going to have rubbing. Anyways not tackling this until spring got to button up some other projects first.

How wide are your 33's?

[bottomwatcher]

I don't have 33s just 31x10.5. I think they look OK for the way the truck is but they rub and wear out with the A arm set up. Running those with the stock Naps z it was faster to get out and walk.  KA power was a gamechanger. Love the truck again.

[frankendat]

18 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

I don't have 33s just 31x10.5. I think they look OK for the way the truck is but they rub and wear out with the A arm set up. Running those with the stock Naps z it was faster to get out and walk.  KA power was a gamechanger. Love the truck again.

235/85R16 are 9.25in wide and 31.7in

215/85R16 are 8.46in wide and 30.4in

My hope is the skinner tires would have enough room and with a 2in or 3in body lift, height wouldn’t be a worry. IMO 30in is the smallest tire you should put on a 4wd. It is my inner dumbshit that remembers the “coolness” of lifted trucks with big aggressive tires. I ran Swampers back in the day and still like them, their just heavy, expensive, wear fast, terrible on snow/ice/water, loud (but loud tires do not bother me) harder to steer and ride like a Radio Flyer. BUT, I liked riding high and thought it was COOL. (I thought mullets were cool at this time, so the judgement of my youth is suspect)

The tires on the Conner desert race 720 are bigger and cool, but I have been unable to confirm their size. The desert truck also absorbs bumps like a champ. However, tire wear is never mentioned and likely not a concern in development.

[frankendat]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:12 PM, bottomwatcher said:

The final solution.

 

I gave a quick look about for early Toyota straight axles. HOLY CRAP-they are priced like their made out of gold! Where did you find that one and what did you give for it?

[bottomwatcher]

Yeah people want a lot of money for them. I got mine cheap $300 front and rear but I got what I paid for. Rusty, 3.73, open diffs. Both need complete rebuild so I stopped there. I seem to never learn. I get something cheap, do a full resto paying for part by part and I end up with a used piece of poo for more than what I could buy a good running piece for. Project is on hold until I finish other ones and meanwhile keeping an eye out for something better.

[frankendat]

16 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

I seem to never learn. I get something cheap, do a full resto paying for part by part and I end up with a used piece of poo for more than what I could buy a good running piece for.

I mirror that statement and try to console myself that knowledge was gained. Additionally, when I total restro a piece I think, with good reason, it should last at least as long as the original, which as time goes by, is getting closer and closer to a lifetime guarantee. 

 

I'm confused. Your KA 720 achieves 30 mpg, it has been my experience and confirmed by many with more knowledge, vehicles that reach higher mpg numbers have lower performance (power) diesel and hybrids notwithstanding. Are you planning/expecting lower mpg, but more get up and go, if or when you change rear end gearing?

[bottomwatcher]

Where did to 30mpg come from. I am guessing around 20 ish. The same 240 miles per tank but a lot more power than the z24. Now it isn't fast but I don't get the middle fingers anymore trying accelerate up a hill.

[Stoffregen Motorsports]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:04 PM, frankendat said:

I gave a quick look about for early Toyota straight axles. HOLY CRAP-they are priced like their made out of gold! Where did you find that one and what did you give for it?

'79-'85 Toyota mini truck axles are highly sought after because in '86 they went to IFS and every rock crawler west of the Mississippi want to convert their mini to solid axle.

 

There are a few companies making custom Toyota axles, in any width you want, and the cost is not much more than a factory housing. Diamond axle can make you a custom housing for about $1000.

 

But the housing is only part of the equation. Restoring a stock axle can take hours. Here's a pic of one of my Land Cruiser axle rebuilds.

 

[frankendat]

19 hours ago, bottomwatcher said:

Where did to 30mpg come from. I am guessing around 20 ish. The same 240 miles per tank but a lot more power than the z24. Now it isn't fast but I don't get the middle fingers anymore trying accelerate up a hill.

 Well damn, I am getting my Ratsuners mixed up. I am sure someone was claiming 30 mpg in a gas 720. To recap, you have a Z24 converted to a KA24E (engine and transmission) running 31's and 4:11's. The extra HP of the KA makes the truck driveable but with the 31's you seek numerically higher differential ratios to increase acceleration. Right? If so, are you concerned numerically higher differential ratios will negatively impact mpg and top end (hwy) speed? If these ramifications are not a concern, Why?

Finally, according to the internet a Nissan axle code CA43 will provide a C200 4.375 rear and a HG43 will provide a R200 4.375 front. Of course this will not address the lift/tire wear problem, but they are  similar in size to the Toy truck setups with a numerically higher ratio.
Spit balling on a Saturday, to address the lift/tire problem, with CA43 and HG43 pieces and parts, has anyone ever Frankensteined together a Nissan straight axle front end? I knew a guy who knew a guy that ran a Dana rear on the front (or the other way round) He mounted it upside down. If the R&P won't fit in a flipped house, then Stoffregen posted custom housing knowledge, possibly a pumpkin modification to use the straight rear axle housing with the front R&P. The crazy prices of Toy straight axles make custom thinking actionable.

As much as I would love to run this down, because rabbit holes that defy conventional thinking are my favorite waste of time (99.9% of the time conventional thinking proves the better course of action). It is like how I  bullshit around "if I ever won the lotto..." but it has been years since I bought a ticket. 
A skunk moved into my garage and I want to spend my weekend washing myself and my tools multiple times to remove skunk smell, or in other words, I am going to attempt to get the skunk to leave my garage.

[frankendat]

3 hours ago, Stoffregen Motorsports said:

'79-'85 Toyota mini truck axles are highly sought after because in '86 they went to IFS and every rock crawler west of the Mississippi want to convert their mini to solid axle.

 

There are a few companies making custom Toyota axles, in any width you want, and the cost is not much more than a factory housing. Diamond axle can make you a custom housing for about $1000.

 

But the housing is only part of the equation. Restoring a stock axle can take hours. Here's a pic of one of my Land Cruiser axle rebuilds.

 

 

You sure have nice stuff. Is that powdercoated? A custom jig to move it about, clean roomy cement floor shop.

I swapped out Asin for Warn lockout when I had an FJ40. Fine machines. Is it for a customer? Curious why no high steer since it is out and rebuilt, it seems an easy additional that becomes significantly more difficult after that axle is reinstalled. I kept mine manual steering because manual steering saved my behind on more than one occasion. Still think it is weird to see "professional" wheelers drive with their thumbs wrapped around the wheel.