What old Datsuns have engine mounts on the frame, not the front crossmember?

[NeverFinished]

In order to be able to remove the crossmember without interference with the engine placement:

 

What Datsuns from ~1960 to 1967, but also perhaps through 1975, have the engine mounts on the frame rails (welded or bolted) rather than based on the front crossmember?  I anticipate the answer will be some truck models, but perhaps some older cars too.

 

Does anyone have details on custom frame-rail based mounts in order to install an L, SR, CA, RB, VG, VQ series engines, or even something else?  (I do recall something in Jags That Run for 240Z's for Chevy small blocks, but that book is in a box right now)

 

And finally, are there such mounts bolted to newer pickups that could be adapted to older Datsuns, or duplicated by a machine shop?

 

Thanks for your time.

[Eagle_Adam]

620's 

[datsunaholic]

All trucks.  Only cars that would be that way would be ones that had frames.  All cars from at least the 510 and S30 were unibody, so the "crossmember" (which is actually the front suspension subframe)  is the only thing with enough structure to bolt the mounts to.  I don't know about the 410/411, but the 1950s design 210 (Datsun 1000) had a frame, and all roadsters had frames.

[NeverFinished]

That covers the original question, thanks!

 

Are the 620 and 720 mounts welded or bolted to the frame?

 

Are the frame rails the same distance apart as a 520 pickup?

 

I am waiting for a call back from the CA BAR Referee about CA smog exemption, and trying to get my facts straight before the call.  Looks like fabrication will be easier based on a truck (most likely have to use a 1967 model or older)

[Eagle_Adam]

620's are welded to the frame 

[datsunaholic]

There are mount perches welded to the frame.  The rubber isolator bolts to that, then the bracket bolts between the engine and the rubber isolator.

 

The mount perch that's welded to the frame differs from one engine type to another- eg a 620 from the US/Canada has a different perch than a 620 from just about anywhere else whoch used the J-series engine.   Same with the 521, which had both engine types as well, including in the US.   However, for swap purposes once the engine and the rubber isolators are removed, it's failrly clean unless you're trying to bolt in a set of V-8 or V-6 mounts.  I'm not sure what the folks that did KA swaps did, other than custom brackets I don't know if they did on-frame welding or just made the brackets fit the existing perch.

 

One issue with EVERY Datsun older than 1968 is that the engine bays are really narrow, and for the ones that had J-series exclusively, also very short.  Takes a fair amount of body mutilation to put anything bigger in them.  It's been done, but it's all custom fab.  No kits.  Only swap kit I've ever seen was the JTR SBC kit for the Z cars.  There may have been a kit for putting Ford "Cologne" V-6s in 521/620 trucks because it was a somewhat common swap in the 80s, but every one I've seen was a fab job.

[]2eDeYe]

The best option for most swaps will always be custom mounts on the motor side. Almost every manufacturer that I know of uses isolators at the frame. The exception is when using round leaf spring style bushings. You have to build up mounts at the frame to reach out to the bushing.

[flatcat19]

[K_trip]

- removed -

[NeverFinished]

K_trip:
That's really nice of you to bring this car to my attention.  Thank you. That is a perfect solution except for my peculiar requirement: having a car that holds my giant (6'6" long, 4'6' from butt to toes laying down) dog and I.  I must have interior room.  Has anyone ever trimmed out the trunk and partition and added material to have a roadster look more like a wagon/hatchback?  I have a really nice photo mockup (from a professional studio) showing the pictures of a future potential Miata wagon which would be a good template for what I have in mind, but I still don't know how to post photos on this forum.  Wait, here's a link to it:

http://www.sketchfarm.com/transportation/mazda/final-model.html

I could see how unstable that Roadster would be the way it is, but a Miata front suspension moved forward so the tires are up to the grill, and rear wheels with offset to match the wider Miata track, would make that handle quite nicely, I think.  The frame might need additional reinforcement.  I could even keep the Chevy Small Block, but an aluminum V6 would be a better choice. My cost of completing that car might be minimal, though I don't know what it costs now (as I can't find the ad).

 

That 411SSS 'goon for $2K that you posted two hours ago is more my style only because of body size, though obviously not the same class of performance.  The suspension upgrade it has might make it handle adequately.  Drive it a while and decide it's upgrade path.

 

Thanks, and please let me know how to find that Roadster.  I like it.

PS. I'm not "in love with" the Miata suspension, it just happens to be the most self contained design, most readily adapted to other cars of similar weight, and wins autocross.

[MikeRL411]

All trucks.  Only cars that would be that way would be ones that had frames.  All cars from at least the 510 and S30 were unibody, so the "crossmember" (which is actually the front suspension subframe)  is the only thing with enough structure to bolt the mounts to.  I don't know about the 410/411, but the 1950s design 210 (Datsun 1000) had a frame, and all roadsters had frames.

 

 

410s and 411s are unibody, so the engine mounts are attached to the front cross member.

[NeverFinished]

Hi Mike,

You are correct, of course.  This Roadster's mounts should be on it's ladder frame.  If swapping this Roadster's front suspension to a Miata subframe (completely welded like Bob's MX520) the engine would effectively be "moved" further back in relation to the car's front/back weight bias.  Any chance removing the passenger seat would allow the Roadster to fit a dog that sits 4.5' from rump to toes on the passenger side?  He'd also be inclined sit sit up and watch out the front windshield.  That would mean I can use the car without modification.  A removable hardtop rather than clothtop would be really appropriate here, and I guess they cost $1K aftermarket.  (One company's product for Suzuki Samurai does)

 

The 411 has a really narrow engine bay, but would still have frame rails (welded to the unibody to under the seats), so truck-like motor mounts can be fabricated to hold a narrow engine (SR20DE RWD, L18?, or QR25DE RWD). If converting a 411 to a Miata subframe in front farther forward, the original wheelwells would disappear giving a wide engine bay.  Having read all through Bob's two builds, the 411 could have been constructed with the Miata front frame-rails welded all the way under the 411 original floor, perhaps with some sections of Miata floor remaining as doubler plates. That would have allowed the Miata frame-rails to be moved to an appropriate location to have the front wheels all the way to the front of the car, with Miata inner fenderwells to where they met the 411 width.  Of course, I know I'm only speculating, as it requires actual measurements.  So please forgive me for making a hypothetic statement.  (I'd likely use a Datsun engine in such a 411 project)

[flatcat19]

NeverFinished? How about NeverWillBeSatisfied. 

 

Just get a car already. Then build. 

 

 

"I want to do this to my car" will go way further than "I want a car and want to do this and that to it."

 

A 411 SSS wagon will be badd ass enough on its own. 

You may come to find that you love it the way it is. 

 

Until then it's thread after thread saying the same thing. 

Blah, blah, blah, no datsun. 

[NeverFinished]

Flatcat,

What does that have to do with engine mounts?

[flatcat19]

You're building a Datsun in your head you will never, ever finish. 

 

Frame mounted engine...trucks and pre-68 Datsuns. 

Everything else...not frame mounted. Cross-member. 

You're asking the same thing over, and over, and...

 

 

Just get the car and enjoy it. 

[Dguy210]

K_trip:

That's really nice of you to bring this car to my attention.  Thank you. That is a perfect solution except for my peculiar requirement: having a car that holds my giant (6'6" long, 4'6' from butt to toes laying down) dog and I.  I must have interior room.  Has anyone ever trimmed out the trunk and partition and added material to have a roadster look more like a wagon/hatchback?  I have a really nice photo mockup (from a professional studio) showing the pictures of a future potential Miata wagon which would be a good template for what I have in mind, but I still don't know how to post photos on this forum.

Wait, were you the guy with the big white dog at the last pizza meet?

[NeverFinished]

Wait, were you the guy with the big white dog at the last pizza meet?

Yeah, that was us.  He gets more attention than I'd like, but you noticed how he was able to chill out in the corner beside me without bothering anyone?  That takes serious training.  When I said giant, I wasn't kidding, was I?  Thanks for the link on instructions on how to host my photos.  It will take me days to sort and post pictures of my 240Z restoration that was "NeverFinished", not sure if previous cars are worth posting here since they were mostly Toyota and Honda and back in 'film' photography days I never took many pictures.